What's in this cellar room photo?

[MurriFlower]

UKGuy,
Possibly but the forensic evidence does not support this. As Coroner Meyer remarked I think sexual contact and digital penetration took place in another Ramsey bedroom in which JonBenet was role playing, something which eventually led to her death.

I just caught this by accident. Are you saying that the coroner said that? If I read you right, the word "remarked" means that he said this in public? So can you tell me where I can read/see/hear this remark?

 

[UKGuy]

I just caught this by accident. Are you saying that the coroner said that? If I read you right, the word "remarked" means that he said this in public? So can you tell me where I can read/see/hear this remark?

MurriFlower,
Sure I am. This why I am confident that JonBenet was being molested.

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm

Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.

Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she witnessed the autopsy of JonBenet Ramsey which was conducted by Dr. John Meyer on December 26, 1996. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer examine the vaginal area of the victim and heard him state that the victim had received an injury consistent with digital penetration of her vagina. Detective Arndt told Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer told her that is was his opinion that the victim had been subjected to sexual contact.

Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarkes were witnessed by others. To date nobody has ever suggested he did not make them.

.

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,
Sure I am. This why I am confident that JonBenet was being molested.

http://www.acandyrose.com/01301997warrant.htm


Coroner Meyer's verbatim remarkes were witnessed by others. To date nobody has ever suggested he did not make them.

.

Ok, but where did Coroner Meyer say "I think sexual contact and digital penetration took place in another Ramsey bedroom in which JonBenet was role playing, something which eventually led to her death".

 

[UKGuy]

Ok, but where did Coroner Meyer say "I think sexual contact and digital penetration took place in another Ramsey bedroom in which JonBenet was role playing, something which eventually led to her death".

MurriFlower,
The bold emphasis is Coroner Meyer's remarks the rest is my interpretation. I assumed most people here are aware of his verbatim comments?

If you assume, prior to her death, JonBenet was molested, and her body was then moved to the wine-cellar. Considering the apparent lack of forensic evidence in her bedroom , as per Patsy's remarks, then some other room seems like the location of her inital assault?

.

 

[Whaleshark]

Can we just stop and consider the gravity of this statement for a moment?

It begs the question: Well, what is supposed to be there?", and I know we've touched on this before, but I think it is that important.

For that statement should not apply only to the pink nightgown, should it? What about the white blanket? For that matter, what about JonBenet?

If Patsy is ignorant of what happened to JonBenet, not only is she not supposed to know where JonBenet was, but when she is found, she is not supposed to know what is/is not "supposed to be there" as it relates to anything involved in the crime, including JonBenet's body and all evidence.

It doesn't matter if you say, 'well maybe she meant that she knows that the nightgown was supposed to be in her room' or whatever', because the blanket she is found in, JonBenet herself, and all associated evidence were not supposed to be in the wine cellar either. The fact that she states that one item in particular is not supposed to be part of the crime scene is not only a huge 'tell', but a breath-stopping tell if I am the investigator or lawyer, or whoever is questioning her at that moment. I would stop, reconsider what I just heard, and then word my next questions very carefully - you must then ask the witness, "It's not? Why is that?", "What IS supposed to be there".

It is a Eureka moment, and I don't know why the gravity of it has not been discussed more thoroughly.

And let me just say this - my son is a habitual liar, and I have grown expert as of late at being able to deduce - no matter how convincing, detailed, and emotionally invested he is in his lies - what is, or is not true, based on the fallacies of his arguments and what he is really saying by what he says or does not say, how he says it, and his whole demeanor - And I have a lot of practice at it these days....however, no, I am not an experienced investigator - just saying, it has become painfully obvious to me when someone has just busted themselves and are totally oblivious...

But the whole crime scene - all the evidence/artifacts, everything involved should be totally foreign to Patsy - so, if the nightgown is not supposed to be there, why is the blanket supposed to be there? If it isn't, why didn't you say the same thing about the blanket? Why did you say that at all?

Yes, it is important, because:
1) You're not supposed to know what is/isn't in the crime scene.
2) Why pick out the nightgown then?
3) Not only did you just give away knowledge of the crime scene, you also picked a particular item of significance - I have many more questions suddenly for this witness.

That is my defining eureka moment this year (thus far). Last year it was in reading John's ridiculous comment about the 'clever' intruder pulling a chair behind the door to go out the way of the train room window - to explain away the absurdity of that excuse - because the friggin door was blocked.

I guess that chair was not supposed to be there either.... Ugh.


And, of course, there's the absurd LACK of knowledge of regular household items that should be there:
- her own dishes
- her own kleenex
- her own household stuff

Knowledge of what should/should not be at the crime scene, and lack of knowledge of what should/should not be in your
house? Methinks someone didn't read the whole book on "Getting away with murder for dummies", but did happen to have
enough money to get out of it instead....

 

[celticthyme]

I googled 1996 Holiday Barbie, and this looks very similar to what is lying on the floor. The box is a golden yellow. She could be on or next to the box. ( looks eerilie like Jonbenet)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nCqI2VliL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

 

[UKGuy]

Can we just stop and consider the gravity of this statement for a moment?

It begs the question: Well, what is supposed to be there?", and I know we've touched on this before, but I think it is that important.

For that statement should not apply only to the pink nightgown, should it? What about the white blanket? For that matter, what about JonBenet?

If Patsy is ignorant of what happened to JonBenet, not only is she not supposed to know where JonBenet was, but when she is found, she is not supposed to know what is/is not "supposed to be there" as it relates to anything involved in the crime, including JonBenet's body and all evidence.

It doesn't matter if you say, 'well maybe she meant that she knows that the nightgown was supposed to be in her room' or whatever', because the blanket she is found in, JonBenet herself, and all associated evidence were not supposed to be in the wine cellar either. The fact that she states that one item in particular is not supposed to be part of the crime scene is not only a huge 'tell', but a breath-stopping tell if I am the investigator or lawyer, or whoever is questioning her at that moment. I would stop, reconsider what I just heard, and then word my next questions very carefully - you must then ask the witness, "It's not? Why is that?", "What IS supposed to be there".

It is a Eureka moment, and I don't know why the gravity of it has not been discussed more thoroughly.

And let me just say this - my son is a habitual liar, and I have grown expert as of late at being able to deduce - no matter how convincing, detailed, and emotionally invested he is in his lies - what is, or is not true, based on the fallacies of his arguments and what he is really saying by what he says or does not say, how he says it, and his whole demeanor - And I have a lot of practice at it these days....however, no, I am not an experienced investigator - just saying, it has become painfully obvious to me when someone has just busted themselves and are totally oblivious...

But the whole crime scene - all the evidence/artifacts, everything involved should be totally foreign to Patsy - so, if the nightgown is not supposed to be there, why is the blanket supposed to be there? If it isn't, why didn't you say the same thing about the blanket? Why did you say that at all?

Yes, it is important, because:
1) You're not supposed to know what is/isn't in the crime scene.
2) Why pick out the nightgown then?
3) Not only did you just give away knowledge of the crime scene, you also picked a particular item of significance - I have many more questions suddenly for this witness.

That is my defining eureka moment this year (thus far). Last year it was in reading John's ridiculous comment about the 'clever' intruder pulling a chair behind the door to go out the way of the train room window - to explain away the absurdity of that excuse - because the friggin door was blocked.

I guess that chair was not supposed to be there either.... Ugh.


And, of course, there's the absurd LACK of knowledge of regular household items that should be there:
- her own dishes
- her own kleenex
- her own household stuff

Knowledge of what should/should not be at the crime scene, and lack of knowledge of what should/should not be in your
house? Methinks someone didn't read the whole book on "Getting away with murder for dummies", but did happen to have
enough money to get out of it instead....

Whaleshark,

It is a Eureka moment, and I don't know why the gravity of it has not been discussed more thoroughly.

It has been discussed before, and since the nightgown would not normally be in the wine-cellar, the remarks are not enitirely out of place.

If Patsy is ignorant of what happened to JonBenet, not only is she not supposed to know where JonBenet was, but when she is found, she is not supposed to know what is/is not "supposed to be there" as it relates to anything involved in the crime, including JonBenet's body and all evidence.

Well she was shown the evidence and could claim the items are usually stored elsewhere.

More obvious is Patsy's claims to have given JonBenet the size-12's, a ridiculous claim, obviously made to avoid explaining the why question, yet no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer or elsewhere in the house.

So the question Patsy would have been asked at the trial would have been: Why do you think JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's, then concealed the remaining pairs?

Patsy would probably have replied:Oh, I don't know, JonBenet could be quite playful at times



.

 

[sandover]

Whaleshark,

It has been discussed before, and since the nightgown would not normally be in the wine-cellar, the remarks are not enitirely out of place.


Well she was shown the evidence and could claim the items are usually stored elsewhere.

More obvious is Patsy's claims to have given JonBenet the size-12's, a ridiculous claim, obviously made to avoid explaining the why question, yet no size-12's were found in JonBenet's underwear drawer or elsewhere in the house.

So the question Patsy would have been asked at the trial would have been: Why do you think JonBenet dressed herself in the size-12's, then concealed the remaining pairs?

Patsy would probably have replied:Oh, I don't know, JonBenet could be quite playful at times



.

Or would the Ramsey attorneys claim the intruder dressed her?

By the way, when the Ramseys DID find the remaining size 12s, did they ever disclose where/how they found them? And why did they find them, what was the logic/strategy behind disclosing them?

 

[DeeDee249]

I googled 1996 Holiday Barbie, and this looks very similar to what is lying on the floor. The box is a golden yellow. She could be on or next to the box. ( looks eerilie like Jonbenet)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nCqI2VliL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Thank you for posting this. It was discussed here a few years ago, and I had told posters to look for the doll on eBay to see what it looked like. I had seen this doll in a few thrift shops and at the odd garage sale. But your photo shows it very well. I totally agree that this was the doll on the floor (still in the box). The box is gold foil cardboard, with a clear plastic sleeve. I think in the doll is still in the box in that photo, and there is often distortion when photographing that kind of clear plastic.

 

[Flatlander]

Here is the FAO wrapped box in the lower left corner:
http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...b=144pr6mlt&sigi=10soot75l&.crumb=NTd8cu1dV1u
I will go back and take a look at the barbie again in location to the blanket, tape and box.
My take on the barbie being there is possibly JB carried it with her going down with BR and his friend. I don't know why it was still in the box unless Patsy gave JB doll's that she wouldn't let her play with?

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you for posting this. It was discussed here a few years ago, and I had told posters to look for the doll on eBay to see what it looked like. I had seen this doll in a few thrift shops and at the odd garage sale. But your photo shows it very well. I totally agree that this was the doll on the floor (still in the box). The box is gold foil cardboard, with a clear plastic sleeve. I think in the doll is still in the box in that photo, and there is often distortion when photographing that kind of clear plastic.

DeeDee249,
The doll appears as if it is out of the box, maybe the plastic is decieving me, but the hair looks asymmetric, not as it would look, as new in the box.

In or out of the the box, do you agree it should not be lying around so close to a homicide crime-scene?

Why did BPD not ask Patsy the smoking-gun questions on this topic, they just allowed her to state the obvious?

If the barbie-doll is not boxed then I reckon it has arrived in the wine-cellar along with the nightgown, and we might have to rethink some of our theories.

Was the barbie-doll intended as an 2nd Christmas gift for JonBenet, to be given on their vacation, did JonBenet find it and open it, incurring Patsy's anger, did Burke find it and give it to JonBenet, did both Burke and JonBenet have a midnight pineapple snack followed by exploring the basement, finding the barbie-doll, returning upstairs to a bedroom, where JonBenet was molested and injured?

What evidence is there that the barbie-doll was a suitable gift for Jenny, do we know if she collected dolls, my understanding is some girls grow out of dolls, and could not care less, viewing them as childs toys?



.

 

[Whaleshark]

Although I do think the item in question is some type of holiday doll, I think I would have to agree with a previous poster on the size of the doll being larger than a standard barbie. It really does look larger than a barbie relative to the size of the window screens above it in the photo, and the other items around it. A regular size barbie is going to look significantly smaller, and we already have low resolution, but can still tell that it is a doll pretty much.

There is also something else draped across the bottom half of the doll - maybe another doll, not sure. Looks like the doll is wearing red and white with blonde hair, on a box shape with white paper/cloth under it. Across the bottom half of it, perpendicular is shiny gold....maybe the shiny item is above the doll, or bunched up, or something - looks like it casts a shadow on it anyway. but it's covering up the second half of the doll, or it could be a large bottom of the dress - ruffled and pouffy, casting shadows down and all hazed together due to the low resolution - which if it is, makes the doll even larger. And that doll looks splayed out on the cement floor on a blanket. Why so? I know some have said they thought that maybe it was a gift ready to go, and needed to be opened to look for the size 12 underwear, but it seems unlikely they would wrap the underwear in the same package as the beautiful doll, but who knows? I mean, either way, it should look strange that the doll is open and out like that on the floor as well, but no comment was made about that, like was made about the barbie nightgown not supposed to be there...

...And speaking of items that are 'not supposed to be there' - why are any open dolls supposed to be in that cellar room either? Patsy said, 'That's a barbie doll under there', in one of her statements discussed in this thread as well, when being shown photos of items taken from/in the cellar. And if she admitted to wrapped gifts being in the cellar, then what did she think of unwrapped dolls and/or gifts being in the cellar? Why not ask, "Why are those dolls in there with her as well? Why are those gifts unwrapped and thrown everywhere?" I guess she could think it might be normal if the intruder saw wrapped gifts and thought he might find something valuable to take or whatever... but you would think she would make some comment about them, since she said the nightgown shoudn't be there, and especially if she knows/doesn't think this intruder is looking for underwear in the gifts, becuase she said JonBenet put them on herself probably since the underwear would've been up in JonBenet's drawer for her to pick out....

...Thinking there was probably more than one doll in the cellar - Patsy identifies at least one barbie doll. However, that doll in the red looks larger than a barbie, and I have read previous posts and info discussing more than one doll in the cellar as well....

 

[Whaleshark]

-partially unwrapped gifts.
-secret visit from santa.
-late night snacks.
-secrets we won't tell.
-underwear that doesn't make sense.

- who is most likely to partially unwrap gifts in secret around Xmas time?
- who is most likely to whisper to a child that a secret visit will come from santa, esp. if they know there is a 2nd round of Xmas or hidden gifts to come?

you know when during a movie the climax builds up and then it starts giving you hints of the perpetrator in flashbacks of scenes, stringing specific events together -- showing you the clues, helping your lightbulb start to shine, till you go, 'oh man it all makes sense now? of course......

my lightbulb's shining.

 

[UKGuy]

Although I do think the item in question is some type of holiday doll, I think I would have to agree with a previous poster on the size of the doll being larger than a standard barbie. It really does look larger than a barbie relative to the size of the window screens above it in the photo, and the other items around it. A regular size barbie is going to look significantly smaller, and we already have low resolution, but can still tell that it is a doll pretty much.

There is also something else draped across the bottom half of the doll - maybe another doll, not sure. Looks like the doll is wearing red and white with blonde hair, on a box shape with white paper/cloth under it. Across the bottom half of it, perpendicular is shiny gold....maybe the shiny item is above the doll, or bunched up, or something - looks like it casts a shadow on it anyway. but it's covering up the second half of the doll, or it could be a large bottom of the dress - ruffled and pouffy, casting shadows down and all hazed together due to the low resolution - which if it is, makes the doll even larger. And that doll looks splayed out on the cement floor on a blanket. Why so? I know some have said they thought that maybe it was a gift ready to go, and needed to be opened to look for the size 12 underwear, but it seems unlikely they would wrap the underwear in the same package as the beautiful doll, but who knows? I mean, either way, it should look strange that the doll is open and out like that on the floor as well, but no comment was made about that, like was made about the barbie nightgown not supposed to be there...

...And speaking of items that are 'not supposed to be there' - why are any open dolls supposed to be in that cellar room either? Patsy said, 'That's a barbie doll under there', in one of her statements discussed in this thread as well, when being shown photos of items taken from/in the cellar. And if she admitted to wrapped gifts being in the cellar, then what did she think of unwrapped dolls and/or gifts being in the cellar? Why not ask, "Why are those dolls in there with her as well? Why are those gifts unwrapped and thrown everywhere?" I guess she could think it might be normal if the intruder saw wrapped gifts and thought he might find something valuable to take or whatever... but you would think she would make some comment about them, since she said the nightgown shoudn't be there, and especially if she knows/doesn't think this intruder is looking for underwear in the gifts, becuase she said JonBenet put them on herself probably since the underwear would've been up in JonBenet's drawer for her to pick out....

...Thinking there was probably more than one doll in the cellar - Patsy identifies at least one barbie doll. However, that doll in the red looks larger than a barbie, and I have read previous posts and info discussing more than one doll in the cellar as well....

Whaleshark,
I am not certain about the barbie doll's status. Is it a gift, was it one of JonBenet's play dolls, was it a gift intended for Jenny, was it intended as a voodoo doll, or ritual type object meant to mirror JonBenet's death?

Patsy probably said as little as possible about the wine-cellar contents, so to err on the safe side of making comments. One thing is for sure, is that the barbie doll did not arrive in the wine-cellar by accident, as some seem to think the nightgown did.

Your comments about the dolls and the contents of the wine-cellar in general make me think we do not know half of what happened that night!



.

 

[Lera213]

Didn't I read somewhere Patsey stated she bought JB a life like doll that looks just like JB for Christmas.

 

[Lera213]

OK so here is a theory....JB snuck down stairs and took her doll gift still wraped down in the cellar to peek, Mom or Dad, probably mom found her, and choked her to death...in her anger....once she released JB she realized she was dead and the cover up began.

 

[Whaleshark]

OK so here is a theory....JB snuck down stairs and took her doll gift still wraped down in the cellar to peek, Mom or Dad, probably mom found her, and choked her to death...in her anger....once she released JB she realized she was dead and the cover up began.

...Don't think she would have gone in there by herself though -

Statement by Patsy:
"...the kids played down there in that back area back there. And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly, and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things..."

And this statement from Linda Wilcox, former Ramsey Housekeeper:

"It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there. One day, it was Suzanne, myself, Nedra and Patsy."

 

[sandover]

...Don't think she would have gone in there by herself though -

Statement by Patsy:
"...the kids played down there in that back area back there. And I mean I scoured that place when, cause they were always down there. Burke particularly, and the boys would go down there and play with cars and things..."

And this statement from Linda Wilcox, former Ramsey Housekeeper:

"It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there. One day, it was Suzanne, myself, Nedra and Patsy."

So a new scenario (new to me at least) emerges: JR went to sleep. PR, BR, and JB spent time in the kitchen together, having pineapple and tea. PR told the kids to go to sleep. PR went to bed but heard the kids get up. Couldn't sleep herself so went down to find them. They weren't in the main part of the house so she grabbed a flashlight and went down to the basement. Found BR playing a sex game with JB or just looking for presents, playing. Burke runs away up to bed, PR in a psychotic fit hits JB with the flashlight. She's out cold. PR begins to panic, rushes upstairs, makes sure BR is in bed and so doesn't know what happened after he ran out of the wine cellar. Starts trying to figure out what to do. Feels she has ruined her daughter's life, making her a vegetable. Knows she has to die. Knows she needs to stage something.

At this point either starts staging herself or involves JR. Maybe does it all herself, hence the erratic and psychotic quality to it -- she is not thinking clearly, overlooks some things (breakfast bar), makes odd decisions (the size 12s, the bizarre ransom note). 5:45ish AM -- JR knows something is off from the moment he reads the note but is not sure what. Discovers JB earlier in the morning, takes time to process thoughts, "discovers" her at 1PM and then tries to get him and PR out of state. (Earlier got BR out of house because he knew something was up the moment he read the ransom note but couldn't quite put his finger on it exactly).

Definitely a possible scenario, no? This also explains how BR doesn't "know" anything but probably on a deeper level does know that his mom did it ("What DID you find?" re: the note, but he knows something is up that morning as well because of how angry mom was when she found the two of them in the basement). Also explains why BR may have lied to investigators in his interviews -- feeling guilty, like he did something wrong with JB, not wanting to get in trouble himself or get his mom in trouble...

 

[DeeDee249]

Didn't I read somewhere Patsey stated she bought JB a life like doll that looks just like JB for Christmas.

That wasn't a Barbie. The doll that Patsy bought to look like JB was a MY Twinn doll. They are about 23 inches tall. Certainly not life size, but larger than a standard Barbie.

I disagree that the Holiday Barbie on the WC floor looks larger than the regular Barbie. I think the doll on he floor is the Holiday 1996 doll, which is the standard size of about 12". I have seen these dolls in person.

 

[DeeDee249]

OK so here is a theory....JB snuck down stairs and took her doll gift still wraped down in the cellar to peek, Mom or Dad, probably mom found her, and choked her to death...in her anger....once she released JB she realized she was dead and the cover up began.

No way Patsy would choke her daughter to death because she took a doll.

JB was not able to reach the wood latch to open that wineceller door-it was up at the top of the door.