Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[DeeDee249]

jaded cat,

Thats why I think collusion or/and conspiracy. Its not only JonBenet's death that is being covered up. Once the smoke and mirrors are removed only the residents of the Ramsey household are left.

PR would cover for JR if she was colluding with JR. Did JR love PR? Thats a biggy. There are allegations of extra-marital affairs, on both sides. Consider the age difference between PR and JR, consider Patsy's cancer treatment, consider Burke and JonBenet's emotional needs. Where did John fit in? I always like to refer to Tiger Woods as an exemplar. Successful, multi-millionaire, endorsements coming out his ears, married to a nice woman with beautiful children, in short the perfect family man. Yet look at what his wealth allowed him to do, all that money spent on non-familial entertainment. Now compare with the Ramsey's.


I've yet to see a consistent BDI. Also if BDI is the correct interpretation then I wonder if Burke is unique in the US? He seems to be living a normal life.

If BDI makes sense for you, what do you think the motive was?


.

Plenty of people who have gotten away with crimes, even murder, go on to live perfectly normal lives. Don't be fooled into thinking that the knowledge of what they have done makes them feel guilty or drives them insane. Sometimes that is the case, but most of the time what they feel is relief at having gotten away with it. While they may be waiting for the "other shoe to drop", in general, many people get away with crimes all the time. BR is not unique by any means, not in the US or anywhere else.
When horrific things happen in a family (even if a child is responsible), that event is often tainted by memories that are not always correct. Kids tend to remember things the way they have been TOLD they happened and not necessarily the way they really happened.
There doesn't have to be a "motive" per se. Kids act out in anger and sometimes the results are catastrophic.
There was abuse- we know that. The abuser holds the key to why there was a coverup, if not why there was a murder. I feel the head bash, which would have killed her by itself, was not done to silence her because she was going to tell someone about the abuse. I feel it was done to silence her because she screamed during the abuse. So the abuse and coverup are connected, but not the way some think.
Patsy would cover for JR. There are several reasons why. Yes, if she had hit the fatal blow. They each had a horse in that race. Maybe to keep the remaining family intact. Think of how she and BR would manage if JR was jailed or ruined and her cancer came back. Don't underestimate anyone's survival instincts. In desperate situations, people do things you'd never think they would be capable of.

 

[wonderllama]

Don't forget that over time, a coping mechanism for some people is to actually convince themselves that they DIDN'T do it.

That would certainly make life easier!

 

[Toltec]

I feel for Burke because he didn't see John all that often. John was always traveling, always away. JonBenet was busy with Patsy...what with dance lessons, portfolios, etc...where was Burke during all this? Was Burke forced to accompany Patsy and JonBenet when John was away?

The kid must have been feeling abandoned by John and neglected by his mother.

Remember the family picture Burke drew...his father was standing a great distance away and Patsy was drawn very small..insignificant.

 

[DeeDee249]

Don't forget that over time, a coping mechanism for some people is to actually convince themselves that they DIDN'T do it.

That would certainly make life easier!

Right you are, And if you repeat a lie often enough you'll start to believe it yourself. And so will some other people.

 

[Agatha_C]

It was easier on the Rs to blame Jonbenet. They could have all done it and I think it would have still been her fault, thats how narcissist roll.....

 

[jaded cat]

From UKGuy:

"If BDI makes sense for you, what do you think the motive was?"

That was my first thought after I stepped over the IDI theory. I couldn't think of any other reason the parents would be somewhat united against the police and hustled BR out of that house so fast. I thought about a child's sex exploration gone horrible wrong. That might account for any previous scarring, although it was minimal. I doubt BR would really know what to do if he took it all the way to the end. Jealousy was also a prime motive. As was mentioned above, JR was a successful businessman who was frequently away. PR was busy with JBR all the time. What about BR? Was he dragged to the pageant stuff? Left at home? (Unlikely, but possible) I'm not sure it's so bad that our minds go there. Children kill other children more often than we'd like to know, even siblings.

I need to find the appropriate thread to post my theories about JR being responsible or PR being responsible for killing JBR, but that both participated in the cover up.

 

[BBB167893]

We're getting into some nitty gritty stuff!

 

[Toltec]

15 LOU SMIT: We're getting close to that time

16 of the day and I just have a quick question. I'm

17 kind of the nuts and bolts kind a guy. What it is

18 that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy

19 got together occasionally. Did Patsy use John

20 Andrew's room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: She used it for folding laundry

22 and that kind of stuff.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light

24 that's on in John Andrews room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: This may be a dangerous answer,

0432

1 but I don't think so.

2 LOU SMIT: okay. That's the only thing I got.

3 And we should probably take a break. I think they

4 probably have to change the tape


Does anybody know what this means??? This came from the June 23d 1998 interrogation.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Thanks, Toltec. I have never read this particular part of the interview and now I must! Can you tell me where you read it? Not necessarily the link, just the site (if it was on the internet).
TIA, Becky

 

[UKGuy]

15 LOU SMIT: We're getting close to that time

16 of the day and I just have a quick question. I'm

17 kind of the nuts and bolts kind a guy. What it is

18 that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy

19 got together occasionally. Did Patsy use John

20 Andrew's room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: She used it for folding laundry

22 and that kind of stuff.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light

24 that's on in John Andrews room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: This may be a dangerous answer,

0432

1 but I don't think so.

2 LOU SMIT: okay. That's the only thing I got.

3 And we should probably take a break. I think they

4 probably have to change the tape


Does anybody know what this means??? This came from the June 23d 1998 interrogation.

Toltec,

This may be a dangerous answer,

No answer to this one, so we can speculate.

It reads better without the numbers.

What it is that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy got together occasionally.

I'm assuming Lou Smit is asking if JR and PR used John Andrew's room for some kind of liaison?

23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light

24 that's on in John Andrews room?

This question does not make sense, as if some words are missing? e.g. Were JR and PR in John Andrew's room with some light on?

.

 

[UKGuy]

From UKGuy:

"If BDI makes sense for you, what do you think the motive was?"

That was my first thought after I stepped over the IDI theory. I couldn't think of any other reason the parents would be somewhat united against the police and hustled BR out of that house so fast. I thought about a child's sex exploration gone horrible wrong. That might account for any previous scarring, although it was minimal. I doubt BR would really know what to do if he took it all the way to the end. Jealousy was also a prime motive. As was mentioned above, JR was a successful businessman who was frequently away. PR was busy with JBR all the time. What about BR? Was he dragged to the pageant stuff? Left at home? (Unlikely, but possible) I'm not sure it's so bad that our minds go there. Children kill other children more often than we'd like to know, even siblings.

I need to find the appropriate thread to post my theories about JR being responsible or PR being responsible for killing JBR, but that both participated in the cover up.

jaded cat,
There is a Member's Theories thread at the top of the main page, if you have one that is well worked out.

As Toltec suggested I reckon Burke was largely neglected. Patsy lavished attention on JonBenet. Maybe Burke did not care, he had lots of material comforts, toys and electronic games, his tv etc. It could be he was wrapped up, by default, in his own world, not really aware of a lot going on around him, mild autism is possible?

On the motive, why would a nine-year old boy want to kill his sister? How could he imagine this advantaging himself?


.

 

[Agatha_C]

15 LOU SMIT: We're getting close to that time

16 of the day and I just have a quick question. I'm

17 kind of the nuts and bolts kind a guy. What it is

18 that you had mentioned before that you and Patsy

19 got together occasionally. Did Patsy use John

20 Andrew's room?

21 JOHN RAMSEY: She used it for folding laundry

22 and that kind of stuff.

23 LOU SMIT: Did you ever perhaps have a light

24 that's on in John Andrews room?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: This may be a dangerous answer,

0432

1 but I don't think so.

2 LOU SMIT: okay. That's the only thing I got.

3 And we should probably take a break. I think they

4 probably have to change the tape


Does anybody know what this means??? This came from the June 23d 1998 interrogation.

Toltec, I think that I've truly lost my mind. I've just finished rereading the 98 interviews and I do not remember reading this. Grrrrrrr, now I have to spend another long day and night reading them yet again.

Was this from the Acandyrose interview transcripts or snipped from something else?

It makes no sense to me..

 

[DeeDee249]

On the motive, why would a nine-year old boy want to kill his sister? How could he imagine this advantaging himself?

.

IF it was a BDI, I don't think it was a premeditated crime, and I don't think he would have though about how her death would advantage him. There is the obvious result, of course- he became an only child. But I seriously doubt that was a motive. I don't think there was a motive, especially not if BDI. If he bashed her on the head, it was to shut her up because she screamed. He didn't intend to kill her.
He didn't want to kill her. He just wanted to shut her up.

 

[TechWriter797]

Toltec, I think that I've truly lost my mind. I've just finished rereading the 98 interviews and I do not remember reading this. Grrrrrrr, now I have to spend another long day and night reading them yet again.

Was this from the Acandyrose interview transcripts or snipped from something else?

It makes no sense to me..

I just Googled: "that's on in John Andrews room" and I got a link to the Forums For Justice Web site with the transcript.

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW / VOLUME 4 / PAGES 705 - 796 / JUNE 25, 1998

 

[Agatha_C]

I just Googled: "that's on in John Andrews room" and I got a link to the Forums For Justice Web site with the transcript.

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW / VOLUME 4 / PAGES 705 - 796 / JUNE 25, 1998

Thank you, thank you, thank you! My eyes were already starting to bleed...

 

[UKGuy]

I just Googled: "that's on in John Andrews room" and I got a link to the Forums For Justice Web site with the transcript.

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW / VOLUME 4 / PAGES 705 - 796 / JUNE 25, 1998

TechWriter797,

Its from the 1998 Boulder Police Department Interview with John Ramsey its listed as being 246 pages long.

Last time I looked it was up on acandyrose.

Here is John saying he attended some pageants.
BPD 1998 Interview with John Ramsey, excerpt

25 LOU SMIT: Another thing that I have written

0052

1 down here is: on the 21st and 22nd, actually it

2 was on the 22nd, there was an Amerikids Pageant,

3 and that's what I have listed in my time line. Do

4 you remember JonBenet participating in the pageant

5 just shortly before the Christmas?

6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, there was one down in

7 Denver that she participated in. I don't remember

8 that name. I think it's the one she got this medal

9 at, this All Stars. But she was in that. Patsy

10 would remember exactly. It was in December some

11 time.

12 LOU SMIT: Did you go to that pageant?

13 JOHN RAMSEY: I went to the talent part

14 which is always what I wanted to support JonBenet

15 on, was the talent part of it. So I'd actually

16 gone. Her talent performance was supposed to be at

17 like 3 o'clock and I got there at three and it was

18 actually ahead of scheduled because she had

19 already done it and she had one off the whole

20 thing for talent. And I walked in and she took

21 this off her neck and put it on my neck. She knew

22 that was important.

23 I had always said, you know, you have fun, you

24 know, don't worry about winning or losing but, you

25 know, work on your talent. So that was always kind

0053

1 of like (INAUDIBLE).

2 LOU SMIT: Did (INAUDIBLE) go to the

3 pageants, John?

4 JOHN RAMSEY: I would go to some of them,

5 and I would go to the talent part when she was

6 doing her performance. But I usually wouldn't go

7 to the whole thing. That was a mother/daughter

8 thing they just had. And that, of course, got

9 blown way out of perspective, I believe. It was,

10 what we thought was a private setting among

11 parents and gave JonBenet a chance to develop some

12 self-confidence and presence, and it was nothing

13 more than something she and Patsy enjoyed doing

14 together.

15 LOU SMIT: Who normally went to her pageants?

16 Was it just Patsy and JonBenet or --

17 JOHN RAMSEY: Well sometimes her mother

18 would go. Her sisters would go if they were here.

19 Yeah, just usually Patsy and JonBenet. Because it

20 was usually an all day deal. They'd go in the

21 morning and come back in the afternoon.

Here is John talking about the Bikes, Presents and the Basement.
BPD 1998 Interview with John Ramsey, excerpt

11 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we'd get up, haul the

12 presents and put them under the tree. And a lot of

13 the things were not wrapped so the kids had the

14 surprise when they came down. And we put those out

15 and we got the bike.

16 LOU SMIT: Where would you keep these bikes?

17 JOHN RAMSEY: They were usually in the basement.

18 That was Patsy's department. But I think she kept

19 them in that cellar room. We usually kept all of

20 Christmas stuff in there. Our Christmas trees and

21 lights and that stuff, the trim.

22 LOU SMIT: So you think that somebody would

23 have gone down to get those? Did you go down

24 there?

25 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember specifically.

0082

1 I mean --

2 LOU SMIT: Kind of think about that because

3 that's kind of important. Who was in the basement

4 close to the time of Christmas.

5 JOHN RAMSEY: Well certainly we both would

6 have been because Patsy did most of her wrapping

7 down there. And that's where all the present stuff

8 was stored. So in the process of getting ready for

9 Christmas that would certainly have been down

10 there and been in there.

11 The only thing I remember is going over to Joe's

12 and getting the bike out of his garage. And then

13 after Patsy went upstairs, I had her bike in our

14 garage and I got that out and put it by the tree.

15 And then I went upstairs.

Here John confirms JonBenet was wearing the pink pajama bottoms.
BPD 1998 Interview with John Ramsey, excerpt

25 LOU SMIT: How were you dressed when you

0086

1 were opening presents?

2 JOHN RAMSEY: The kids, JonBenet had on a

3 little pink, like a long underwear bottoms and

4 top. Burke, I don't remember, probably shirt

5 pajamas. They didn't have time to get dressed.

6 Probably Patsy and I had on pajamas and robe which

7 we wore --

8 LOU SMIT: So real casually dressed?

9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

Here John hints he knew much more about the Christmas Presents.
BPD 1998 Interview with John Ramsey, excerpt

12 JOHN RAMSEY: Well we were going to have

13 a kind of second Christmas up in Charlevoix for

14 the big kids. And so we had their presents. We had

15 a few little extra presents for Burke and JonBenet

16 so they wouldn't feel left out.

17 So I guess I kind of fussed around that for a few

18 hours and then I came home.

19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents

21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,

22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some

23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I

24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the

25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090

1 those were there.

2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the

3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the

4 wrapping paper and all the things?

5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either

6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.

7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping

8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there

9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have

10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I

11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would

12 have been.

.

 

[Whaleshark]

Since the questions were asked about BR's activities and if he didn't do anything but watch JBR do pageants, etc....

From here - in Patsy's 1995 Christmas Letter:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-8634.html

"Burke is busy in his third grade year at a new school named High Peaks. It is a Core Knowledge school which accesses high academics and personal achievement. He loves it! He continues with Boy Scouting and the piano. This winter he is the tallest guy on his basketball team. Summer on Charlevoix was spent taking golf and sailing lessons each day. Burke is quite the sailor"...

Just FYI...

 

[UKGuy]

IF it was a BDI, I don't think it was a premeditated crime, and I don't think he would have though about how her death would advantage him. There is the obvious result, of course- he became an only child. But I seriously doubt that was a motive. I don't think there was a motive, especially not if BDI. If he bashed her on the head, it was to shut her up because she screamed. He didn't intend to kill her.
He didn't want to kill her. He just wanted to shut her up.

DeeDee249,
I agree. In my BDI Burke whacks JonBenet on the head, she is moving away from him so to be hit as she was.

I suggest they were sharing a bed after the pineapple snack, and that Burke would have been the last person to see JonBenet alive. He probably sat opposite JonBenet in the kitchen sipping his tea, as she spooned her pineapple, but she did not eat it all, a lot was left in the bowl. Its also possible he made the tea then said 'let's go to my bedroom', so JonBenet leaves her bowl half-full, and walks with Burke to his room where he sips his tea?

JonBenet would have been wearing her pink pajamas, top and bottoms. And Burke remembers that JonBenet likes to wear pink. So when Burke moved JonBenet back to her own room he redressed her in the pink barbie nightgown, but forgot the pink pajama bottoms which were likely left in his bedroom, or if forensically stained removed from the house, possibly by Burke himself, as he left for the White's? The mess in JonBenet's room, results from Burke moving into things as he tries to make it look as if JonBenet has been killed in her bed.

Later on when John and Patsy work out what has occurred they tidy up and restage things to eventually take the form of the wine-cellar staging, complete with JonBenet wearing the white gap top, because the pink barbie nightgown has become blood-stained, and her internal injuries need to be hidden from immediate view.

Their story is then fabricated to match JonBenet's clothing, with the intention of relocating Burke asap.

So it was not the murder of JonBenet that was being hidden, but any suggestion or evidence pointing to incest.



.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
I agree. In my BDI Burke whacks JonBenet on the head, she is moving away from him so to be hit as she was.

I suggest they were sharing a bed after the pineapple snack, and that Burke would have been the last person to see JonBenet alive. He probably sat opposite JonBenet in the kitchen sipping his tea, as she spooned her pineapple, but she did not eat it all, a lot was left in the bowl. Its also possible he made the tea then said 'let's go to my bedroom', so JonBenet leaves her bowl half-full, and walks with Burke to his room where he sips his tea?

JonBenet would have been wearing her pink pajamas, top and bottoms. And Burke remembers that JonBenet likes to wear pink. So when Burke moved JonBenet back to her own room he redressed her in the pink barbie nightgown, but forgot the pink pajama bottoms which were likely left in his bedroom, or if forensically stained removed from the house, possibly by Burke himself, as he left for the White's? The mess in JonBenet's room, results from Burke moving into things as he tries to make it look as if JonBenet has been killed in her bed.

Later on when John and Patsy work out what has occurred they tidy up and restage things to eventually take the form of the wine-cellar staging, complete with JonBenet wearing the white gap top, because the pink barbie nightgown has become blood-stained, and her internal injuries need to be hidden from immediate view.

Their story is then fabricated to match JonBenet's clothing, with the intention of relocating Burke asap.

So it was not the murder of JonBenet that was being hidden, but any suggestion or evidence pointing to incest.



.

I don't think BR did any of the staging, including dressing his unconscious/dead sister in anything. IF I follow along a BDI theory, after the scream/head bash, the parent(s) comes to see what happened. BR is sent to his room and told to stay there. The parent(s) take care of the rest.
JB had pink pajama bottoms that matched the pink pajama top seen on her bed. Where are they? Were they in BR's room? If so, JB may have removed them herself because she wet them while wetting her own bed. Coming into BR's room was a common thing, especially after wetting her bed. I'd like to know where those bottoms are. Were they ever taken into evidence? Were they destroyed? We know NOTHING about them, and that is suspicious to me.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think BR did any of the staging, including dressing his unconscious/dead sister in anything. IF I follow along a BDI theory, after the scream/head bash, the parent(s) comes to see what happened. BR is sent to his room and told to stay there. The parent(s) take care of the rest.
JB had pink pajama bottoms that matched the pink pajama top seen on her bed. Where are they? Were they in BR's room? If so, JB may have removed them herself because she wet them while wetting her own bed. Coming into BR's room was a common thing, especially after wetting her bed. I'd like to know where those bottoms are. Were they ever taken into evidence? Were they destroyed? We know NOTHING about them, and that is suspicious to me.

DeeDee249,
Yes, the pink pajama bottoms are an anomaly. Particularly the fact that they are patently separated from the top. They may have been taken into evidence, but this has been redacted, due to where they were found!

If JonBenet removed the pink bottoms due to bedwetting then where is her size-6 underwear, as worn to the White's? Surely they would local to her bedroom.

Why would Burke not stage JonBenet as lying asleep in her bed? As far as he thinks she is simply unconcious and will come round soon, so he dresses JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown.

I reckon someone dressed JonBenet in the pink barbie nightgown, which on restaging was replaced with the white gap top. Why else would the pink barbie nightgown make its way into the wine-cellar along with a barbie doll e.g. as components of a secondary crime-scene, which need alike JonBenet to be removed from view to facilitate a bedroom abduction scenario? Not unless you suscribe to a grave goods theory, or in modern parlance undoing, which similar to egyptian mortuary ritual encompassed cleaning the body and filling the tomb with everyday grave goods.

The wine-cellar was a long shot. An attempt to evade detection by claiming JonBenet had been kidnapped. To this end forensic evidence from secondary crime-scenes were placed along with JonBenet into the wine-cellar.

Breaking this down into a crime schema:

Stage 1. Primary crime-scene e.g. Burke's bedroom. She is wearing the pink pajamas.

Stage 2. Secondary crime-scene e.g. JonBenet's bedroom. She is wearing Barbie nightgown

Stage 3. Secondary crime-scene e.g. wine-cellar. She is wearing the white Gap top.

Naturally this could be incorrect and Stage 1. might be the Breakfast Bar or John's bedroom. I'm quite convinced stages 2 and 3 took place, and a change of plan required JonBenet to be secreted away into the wine-cellar, otherwise why not just stage JonBenet's death as being in her bedroom at the hands of an intruder?

.