Which is strongest RDI evidence?

[chlban]

DeeDee, I really respect you, I think you're one of the top assets on this forum but Ive seen you say this before-- that they didnt want their son to see his sister's body -- but imo I just cant see these parents having the unselfish empathy to care about what Burke might see. To me, it just doesnt fit.

I struggled with why, if they were guilty or if HE was guilty, how could they trust him not to talk when out of their sight.. until someone here said (Im sorry but i dont recall who) that even nine year old boys are smart enough to keep their mouths shut when they're guilty.

It helped me cement my own BDI opinion.

I struggled with the question of sending Burke off with friends if he was guilty, or even knew what happened. Someone here, and like you I cannot recall who, pointed out that it was better that Burke be with family friends who were likely to be treating him with kid gloves, than in the house with the Police who's quesitoning might be a lot tougher.

Of course, as it turned out the police treated the prime suspects with kid gloves instead of questioning them forcefully as they shoud have, at least
once the body was found in the house. But, the Ramsey's could not have known it would be so easy. They figured there was much less risk of him talking to family friends, especially after what I bet were very stern warnings.

I do, however, believe that the fact that they let him out of their sight at all that morning strongly points to the fact that they knew full well there was never a kidnapping.

 

[greenpalm]

I struggled with the question of sending Burke off with friends if he was guilty, or even knew what happened. Someone here, and like you I cannot recall who, pointed out that it was better that Burke be with family friends who were likely to be treating him with kid gloves, than in the house with the Police who's quesitoning might be a lot tougher.

Of course, as it turned out the police treated the prime suspects with kid gloves instead of questioning them forcefully as they shoud have, at least
once the body was found in the house. But, the Ramsey's could not have known it would be so easy. They figured there was much less risk of him talking to family friends, especially after what I bet were very stern warnings.

I do, however, believe that the fact that they let him out of their sight at all that morning strongly points to the fact that they knew full well there was never a kidnapping.

I agree. I am less confident about what Burke being sent away says about the quality and degree of his own involvement in the murder than I am confident that his being sent away, and let out of their sight is a sure sign that the Ramseys knew she was dead. So, his being sent away is strong RDI evidence.

If one of my kids was missing, I would cling to the other two like glue. I wouldn't let them out of my sight. I would probably be reluctant to physically let go of either of them.

 

[ShadyLady]

I agree. I am less confident about what Burke being sent away says about the quality and degree of his own involvement in the murder than I am confident that his being sent away, and let out of their sight is a sure sign that the Ramseys knew she was dead. So, his being sent away is strong RDI evidence.

If one of my kids was missing, I would cling to the other two like glue. I wouldn't let them out of my sight. I would probably be reluctant to physically let go of either of them.

Furthermore...RDI vs RDI....I think Ramsey's knew giving the impression that Burke did it would justify their actions to DA.

A doctor never saw my sexual parts till after I was married, seems Patsy allowed various people access to her daughter. I call that unusual.

AND I just don't believe for a SECOND that she could teach her daughter to dance and act on stage, and "act in a sexual manner", BUT she could not teach her daughter how to "wipe". Bu**chit.

And both children had problems with toilette training? Surely, an enterprising woman such as Patsy could have figured something out.

 

[Anyhoo]

I agree. I am less confident about what Burke being sent away says about the quality and degree of his own involvement in the murder than I am confident that his being sent away, and let out of their sight is a sure sign that the Ramseys knew she was dead. So, his being sent away is strong RDI evidence.

If one of my kids was missing, I would cling to the other two like glue. I wouldn't let them out of my sight. I would probably be reluctant to physically let go of either of them.

This is just one of a multitude of other things that points to RDI. The parents showed repeatedly that the "kidnapping" was something that they didn't take seriously. Rather, they demonstrated by their actions that it was just a cover-up for the murder which they both knew full well about before the police were even called to the house. I agree that no matter who killed JB in the family, it made sense for the parents to get BR out of the house since they knew that JB's body was going to be soon discovered.

 

[Teresa]

DeeDee, I really respect you, I think you're one of the top assets on this forum but Ive seen you say this before-- that they didnt want their son to see his sister's body -- but imo I just cant see these parents having the unselfish empathy to care about what Burke might see. To me, it just doesnt fit.

I struggled with why, if they were guilty or if HE was guilty, how could they trust him not to talk when out of their sight.. until someone here said (Im sorry but i dont recall who) that even nine year old boys are smart enough to keep their mouths shut when they're guilty.

It helped me cement my own BDI opinion.

Just a thought... A nine year old most likely knows not to talk BUT not always what and how to tell "things" to be believable. As a Mom I can spot a "story" from my kids in a snap. Just a thought...

 

[mcfearless]

I don't think that BDI (I have entertained BDI theories in the past, but while I'm still firmly in the RDI camp, I don't believe Burke delivered the fatal blow), but I think Burke was a witness. In his interviews he mentions waking up and hearing his mother saying "oh my god, oh my god" and then his father shutting the light off. I think it's not only plausible but entirely possible that Burke woke up and got out of bed at that point and witnessed the majority of the murder, if not all of it.

IMO the Ramseys sent him away because they realized the mess they'd gotten themselves into with the kidnapping and were in a panic. Their behaviour was so erratic, and, well, guilty that even though it doesn't make sense to anyone who thinks logically and wouldn't sexually violate and murder a six year old, it made sense to them because they were panic stricken. They knew when they realized the scale of police involvement that their "kidnap" story was going to result in Burke being questioned and thought that if they shoved him out of sight, it would be out of the officers' minds, just like all of the evidence they removed from the house. MOO but I don't think if BDI they would give enough of a s*** to send him away to protect him. It was all about self preservation.

His interview answers can be accounted for in that it took them so long to consent to him being interviewed that they and their "camp" had plenty of time to train him to say nothing, IMO.


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[Anyhoo]

I don't think that BDI (I have entertained BDI theories in the past, but while I'm still firmly in the RDI camp, I don't believe Burke delivered the fatal blow), but I think Burke was a witness. In his interviews he mentions waking up and hearing his mother saying "oh my god, oh my god" and then his father shutting the light off. I think it's not only plausible but entirely possible that Burke woke up and got out of bed at that point and witnessed the majority of the murder, if not all of it.

There is something fundamentally wrong with what you said here. If you take what BR said as being factual about what his parents said and did that morning before the police were called, what are we to make of that? It seems to fit the IDI theory, where the parents wake up, find their daughter gone, have no idea what happened, and are in a panic looking for her. But if RDI, what are we to make of it? To me, if RDI, there would be no reason at all for the parents to do that unless they were doing it just for BR's benefit, to make him believe the parents knew nothing about the murder. And why would they do that? There would be no reason for them to do that. BR is IMO lying when he says this. He MUST have been coached by his parents to give this explanation to police. But if he is telling the truth then it supports IDI and demolishes RDI. Do you see that?

 

[Nom de plume]

There is something fundamentally wrong with what you said here. If you take what BR said as being factual about what his parents said and did that morning before the police were called, what are we to make of that? It seems to fit the IDI theory, where the parents wake up, find their daughter gone, have no idea what happened, and are in a panic looking for her. But if RDI, what are we to make of it? To me, if RDI, there would be no reason at all for the parents to do that unless they were doing it just for BR's benefit, to make him believe the parents knew nothing about the murder. And why would they do that? There would be no reason for them to do that. BR is IMO lying when he says this. He MUST have been coached by his parents to give this explanation to police. But if he is telling the truth then it supports IDI and demolishes RDI. Do you see that?

I have to disagree with you here. I can absolutely see JR & PR putting on a show for BR, assuming of course that he had not seen the murder and knew nothing about what happened. If I were one of them, I wouldn't want him to know for several reasons.

First and foremost, I'd NEVER trust a 9 yr old, ANY 9 yr old, not to eventually run his mouth about what he knew. Secondly, who would want their son to know they murdered his sister?! I sure wouldn't want my son to question whether or not he would end up the same way she did, or to be afraid of me. Not to mention the fact that he could essentially blackmail them into anything he ever wanted for the rest of his life, and I could see BR being the kind of kid that would do something exactly like that.

So IMO, I can see every reason in the world for JR & PR to try to fool BR, just as much as they tried to fool LE, and everyone else. My :twocents:

 

[Anyhoo]

I have to disagree with you here. I can absolutely see JR & PR putting on a show for BR, assuming of course that he had not seen the murder and knew nothing about what happened. If I were one of them, I wouldn't want him to know for several reasons.

First and foremost, I'd NEVER trust a 9 yr old, ANY 9 yr old, not to eventually run his mouth about what he knew. Secondly, who would want their son to know they murdered his sister?! I sure wouldn't want my son to question whether or not he would end up the same way she did, or to be afraid of me. Not to mention the fact that he could essentially blackmail them into anything he ever wanted for the rest of his life, and I could see BR being the kind of kid that would do something exactly like that.

So IMO, I can see every reason in the world for JR & PR to try to fool BR, just as much as they tried to fool LE, and everyone else. My :twocents:

Possibly they would put on such a show but why put on the show at all if you don't have to? If the parents thought BR was asleep (how did they know he wasn't asleep?), then why not just not put on any show at all? Just don't say or do anything concerning him? It makes sense that their focus would have been on the 911 call and the police who were soon going to be in their house rather than worrying about this unnecessary deception of their son.

This information about what the parents said and did came from an interview with LE some time after the crime, correct? If RDI, don't you think BR would have been coached by the parents about how to respond to such basic questions as 'what did you see?' 'what did you hear'? And if he was coached by the parents, wouldn't they want him to say something exactly like this, which is in total agreement with IDI? Think about it.

Of these two choices, it makes sense to me that the story about what the parents did and said before the police were called is fiction, just as what PR said she did before the 911 call is fiction, and what JR said he did before the 911 call is fiction. We'll never know what really happened before the 911 call but it is not this fictional account we hear from the three Ramsey's.

 

[mcfearless]

There is something fundamentally wrong with what you said here. If you take what BR said as being factual about what his parents said and did that morning before the police were called, what are we to make of that? It seems to fit the IDI theory, where the parents wake up, find their daughter gone, have no idea what happened, and are in a panic looking for her. But if RDI, what are we to make of it? To me, if RDI, there would be no reason at all for the parents to do that unless they were doing it just for BR's benefit, to make him believe the parents knew nothing about the murder. And why would they do that? There would be no reason for them to do that. BR is IMO lying when he says this. He MUST have been coached by his parents to give this explanation to police. But if he is telling the truth then it supports IDI and demolishes RDI. Do you see that?

I disagree with you that it has to be all or nothing--as in the "oh my god, oh my god" and the lights that Burke talks about happening didn't have to be patsy putting on a show for Burke, and it doesn't have to be supportive of a IDI (especially since I 100% do not believe there was an intruder)--I think that it could have just as easily been patsy flipping out about the fact that she killed her own child. MOO, I think even if patsy did intend to kill JB in the moment, she still panicked after it was done, which to me could account for a lot of the weird shifty behaviour afterward. Unless I'm reading you wrong in which case feel free to clarify, but I don't think that exchange with Burke in the interview has to be indicative of IDI--I think it could just as easily be a shred of truth in a web of carefully constructed lies.


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[Anyhoo]

I disagree with you that it has to be all or nothing--as in the "oh my god, oh my god" and the lights that Burke talks about happening didn't have to be patsy putting on a show for Burke, and it doesn't have to be supportive of a IDI (especially since I 100% do not believe there was an intruder)--I think that it could have just as easily been patsy flipping out about the fact that she killed her own child. MOO, I think even if patsy did intend to kill JB in the moment, she still panicked after it was done, which to me could account for a lot of the weird shifty behaviour afterward. Unless I'm reading you wrong in which case feel free to clarify, but I don't think that exchange with Burke in the interview has to be indicative of IDI--I think it could just as easily be a shred of truth in a web of carefully constructed lies.


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Why would she be going to the various rooms of the house and turning on lights, as if she was looking for her missing daughter, if she already knew her daughter was lying dead in the basement? Even if she was freaking out, what kind of sense would that make? But isn't this exactly what you would expect PR to do if she woke up in the morning and found her daughter missing? You don't recognize a cover story when you hear it?

 

[ShadyLady]

Why didn't the police question Burke right away?? Do parents have to give permission?

And if one of my kids was kidnapped, surely I would not send the other away.

Burke could have heard something, and not said anything to parents. Maybe Ramseys did not want to take that chance.

 

[Anyhoo]

Why didn't the police question Burke right away?? Do parents have to give permission?

And if one of my kids was kidnapped, surely I would not send the other away.

Burke could have heard something, and not said anything to parents. Maybe Ramseys did not want to take that chance.

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious but I will: If RDI, does anyone think the parents would allow BR to go to those interviews and just answer the questions honestly? If we think JR and PR lied about what happened before the 911 call, isn't it logical to assume they would want what their son said to back up their cover story? Either BR is completely ignorant and knew nothing about the murder or he did know about the murder and that part of his testimony was a lie.

 

[Nom de plume]

Why would she be going to the various rooms of the house and turning on lights, as if she was looking for her missing daughter, if she already knew her daughter was lying dead in the basement? Even if she was freaking out, what kind of sense would that make? But isn't this exactly what you would expect PR to do if she woke up in the morning and found her daughter missing? You don't recognize a cover story when you hear it?

I can't speak for mcfearless, but I understand what you're trying to say. I just happen to disagree with it. IMO, they DID know he was awake, as per the enhanced 911 tape, and were quite possibly putting on a show for him as well as LE. It's also possible that BR simply lied thinking in his 9 yr old brain that he was helping his parents.

I feel trying to make sense of every single thing either R did that night/day is pointless. There are going to be things that will never make sense to any of us.

 

[ShadyLady]

I shouldn't have to point out the obvious but I will: If RDI, does anyone think the parents would allow BR to go to those interviews and just answer the questions honestly? If we think JR and PR lied about what happened before the 911 call, isn't it logical to assume they would want what their son said to back up their cover story? Either BR is completely ignorant and knew nothing about the murder or he did know about the murder and that part of his testimony was a lie.

I wonder if the police even asked that first day.

 

[DeeDee249]

Why didn't the police question Burke right away?? Do parents have to give permission?

And if one of my kids was kidnapped, surely I would not send the other away.

Burke could have heard something, and not said anything to parents. Maybe Ramseys did not want to take that chance.

Police never got the chance to question him right away for 2 reasons. First, at the time BR was sent to the White's that morning, I believe there was only 1 officer present. The second is that parents do have to give permission and/or be present when a minor child is questioned by police. As I have said before, I think the parents felt it was better to have him out of the house (and police observation) even if there was a chance he might say something he shouldn't at the White's. It was FW who drove him there, then FW returned to the R's home, where his wife had remained. FW brought BR to his own home, where his own kids were being cared for by relatives who were there for the Holidays.

 

[Anyhoo]

I can't speak for mcfearless, but I understand what you're trying to say. I just happen to disagree with it. IMO, they DID know he was awake, as per the enhanced 911 tape, and were quite possibly putting on a show for him as well as LE. It's also possible that BR simply lied thinking in his 9 yr old brain that he was helping his parents.

I feel trying to make sense of every single thing either R did that night/day is pointless. There are going to be things that will never make sense to any of us.

Do you think they would have had the presence of mind to think as far ahead to BR being interviewed by the police, sometime in the future, before they even placed the 911 call? I seriously doubt it.

The enhanced 911 call does not support the claim that the parents were putting on a show for BR. He asks them What did you find and JR angrily tells him we aren't speaking to you right now. That sounds like JR basically telling BR to go away and stop interrupting what the parents were trying to do.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but here is the point I am trying to make in all this:

1. PR gave an account of what happened before the 911 call, and the RDI here all say she is lying about that account.

2. JR gave an account of what happened before the 911 call, and many of the RDI here say he is also lying about that account.

3. BR gave an account of what happened before the 911 call, and RDI here believe he is telling the truth(??)

If 1 and 2 are true, then I don't understand 3. Why does it follow that BR would be telling the truth about that? True, if he really does not know anything then it would make sense he is telling the truth, but that is a huge assumption to make. I am not BDI, but to think that BR would not have been coached by his parents to give the very account he gave to LE is IMO incorrect thinking. I do not believe BR's account at all about what happened before the 911 call, any more than I believe PR's account about what happened before the 911 call. Why on earth would any RDI believe him?

 

[Tawny]

By the time the 911 call was placed, hours after JBRs death (if we're going off the TOD the ME surmised), then I would say that at least JR had the presence of mind to know the police would question BR.

 

[Venom]

Do you think they would have had the presence of mind to think as far ahead to BR being interviewed by the police, sometime in the future, before they even placed the 911 call? I seriously doubt it.
<snipped the rest>

Don't you think that the police would want to interview BR that day? Ask him a few questions; if he saw/heard anything? The R's surely should have suspected that he'd have been asked at least a few questions.

 

[Anyhoo]

Don't you think that the police would want to interview BR that day? Ask him a few questions; if he saw/heard anything? The R's surely should have suspected that he'd have been asked at least a few questions.

Yes, I can see that. My thinking is that the parents would have been very nervous about and focused on the police who were about to be in the house, and the fake kidnapping ruse they were trying to pull off. At least if I were in a similar situation, that is where my focus would be at this point, shortly before the 911 call was placed. It would take a very calm, methodical mind to be able to think clearly enough in that situation to plan for future events like this. Also, my thinking is: why would they put on this show for BR if they didn't have to? If BR really didn't know what was going on, why did they have to put on a show for him at all? Even without the fake show of the parents appearing to look for JB, he would have nothing useful to tell police. All he could say was that he didn't hear anything.

However, JR (not PR) strikes me as the type who could think this way, being very thorough and covering all the bases. But, if this is the case, then BR is completely innocent, and everything falls on the parents.