Blazeboy3
Inactive
Like it or not...BINGO:Sexual abuse is at the heart of this crime. !
Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...
- Thread starter blueclouds
- Start date
Like it or not...BINGO:Sexual abuse is at the heart of this crime. !
Blazeboy3
Inactive
I'm so sorry for the LATE WELCOME...but "WELCOME TO YOU!" ... I do hope that you enjoy your "stay here."!?!? IMHO...It's warm / safe/ happy +plus sum ... hee hee LOL all of the things you can think of +sum... regarding JonBenet ...it's a happy/safe/home/ here IMHO...!!!...where you can be yourself among others alike...!...vent/voice w/o ?!?!?
ayjey
always lurking
Welcome!
I too would like to see justice in this case but I think too many things happened (or didn't happen) and we will never see closure in this murder.
IMO, there are some things that point towards a non-family member, but, there are also some things that make the Ramsey's look suspicious, if not guilty. For example: Personally, I find it hard to believe that Patsy would kill her daughter, especially knowing she would never be able to have another child, yet Patsy's handwriting is very similar to the ransom note.
OTOH, There is evidence that we don't even know about, so we don't know who is being investigated outside the family, if anyone at all!
:dontknow:
I too would like to see justice in this case but I think too many things happened (or didn't happen) and we will never see closure in this murder.
IMO, there are some things that point towards a non-family member, but, there are also some things that make the Ramsey's look suspicious, if not guilty. For example: Personally, I find it hard to believe that Patsy would kill her daughter, especially knowing she would never be able to have another child, yet Patsy's handwriting is very similar to the ransom note.
OTOH, There is evidence that we don't even know about, so we don't know who is being investigated outside the family, if anyone at all!
:dontknow:
Toth
Inactive
No, it is not 'very' similar. There are other people who have had writing samples that are more similar.
All you can say is that most experts simply do not have enough evidence to definitively state that she did not write the note; but none are anywhere near the point where they would be state that she did write the note.
Barbara
New Member
"....No, it is not 'very' similar. There are other people who have had writing samples that are more similar...."
Who are they Toth? I'd be curious. Sissi, are you watching for the response?
Who are they Toth? I'd be curious. Sissi, are you watching for the response?
ayjey
always lurking
Ya know what, Toth?
I looked at Patsy's handwriting and I looked at the ransom note and, Yes, it is very similar. Nowhere did I state that she wrote the note.
And just where are the "other people who have had writing samples that are more similar? "
I, for one, am getting tired of your "hit and run" posts.
Answer this one, Toth: And just where are the "other people who have had writing samples that are more similar? "
Ivy
Inactive
Wrong, Toth. Despite what you like to pass off as fact, there are experts who are not only near the point of stating that Patsy wrote the note but who have actually stated it. David Leibman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, who until he retired in 2000, was director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service, are both positive Patsy wrote the note.
shamu
Inactive
Welcome, blueclouds.
My opinion: I doubt that this is the work of an intruder. It could be, but what is likely? We know of no reason he/she would intrude and kill and stage and leave note etc.
OTOH we know that everywhere throughout time and sometimes in the best of families there are accidental deaths... incest.... rage killings...
We also KNOW there is shame and CYA behavior, especially if there is culpability on the part of parent or sibling. We find cover-up behavior even in cases where families arent to blame! (Ive seen estimates that half of AEA deaths scenes are staged to look like something else. No family member should feel any guilt over such an accidental death, of course. Yet so many families try to make it look like suicide or murder.)
So I wouldnt be surprised that a Ram might stage if he/she felt guilty for the death of Jonbenet, regardless of the particulars of how it happened. And how could it have happened? Endless possibilities. Accidental death via vagus nerve damage. Rage head bash. Accidental death via collar during childs play. And so on.... a number of possibilities, some that we havent thought of. But stuff happens. Count on it. And cover-ups happen. Count on it. Both are relatively common. Intruders who leave both note and body? UNcommon (to say the least!)
--edited for spelling--
My opinion: I doubt that this is the work of an intruder. It could be, but what is likely? We know of no reason he/she would intrude and kill and stage and leave note etc.
OTOH we know that everywhere throughout time and sometimes in the best of families there are accidental deaths... incest.... rage killings...
We also KNOW there is shame and CYA behavior, especially if there is culpability on the part of parent or sibling. We find cover-up behavior even in cases where families arent to blame! (Ive seen estimates that half of AEA deaths scenes are staged to look like something else. No family member should feel any guilt over such an accidental death, of course. Yet so many families try to make it look like suicide or murder.)
So I wouldnt be surprised that a Ram might stage if he/she felt guilty for the death of Jonbenet, regardless of the particulars of how it happened. And how could it have happened? Endless possibilities. Accidental death via vagus nerve damage. Rage head bash. Accidental death via collar during childs play. And so on.... a number of possibilities, some that we havent thought of. But stuff happens. Count on it. And cover-ups happen. Count on it. Both are relatively common. Intruders who leave both note and body? UNcommon (to say the least!)
--edited for spelling--
A
ajt400
Guest
Many experts differ on that opinion, some say that there is evidence, others say there isn't. Who to believe, just the ones that side with your theory? Also, that doesn't prove who sexually molested her, just that she was molested.
And, expert interpretation is just that Interpretation, you can interpret anything that you want to. Many people have wildly varying interpretations of the bible, it doesn't make it true!
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ajt400
Guest
Why is it likely that two parents who are seemingly intelligent to do the same thing? The crime makes no sense either way one looks at it...
Britt
New Member
I don't think we can compare science - interpreting autopsy findings - to interpreting literature.
Of course you're right that it doesn't prove who molested/abused her, but the fact that she was abused/molested the night she was killed connects the prior abuser to the murder, unless she was being abused by more than one person.
As for choosing experts, I simply choose the majority, definitive expert opinion over the minority, unclear opinion(s).
Five out of seven experts said clearly there was prior sexual abuse. The other two, Spitz and Krugman, were unclear, but did not state definitively there was no prior abuse. There is an excellent summary here (thank you, Sundance!)...
http://hellpainter.tripod.com/jbr/ex_abuse.htm
Dr. Krugman said he couldn't be sure that the vaginal abuse was "sexual" rather than "physical." You can read for yourself his explanation... see also PMPT page 467 (paperback).
Then, on Burden of Proof, Krugman said the 'sexual' abuse could have been a cover-up for prior physical abuse (in the vaginal area):
COSSACK: Doctor you made a statement which almost made it sound though that you believe that the sexual abuse was a coverup to perhaps hide the amount of physical abuse. Do you have a feel on that area?
KRUGMAN: In my view that's certainly a possibility.
Burden of Proof - Monday, December 29, 1997
The problem with understanding Krugman is that he keeps making the distinction between "physical" and "sexual" abuse. The point is: JonBenét had prior abuse in her vaginal area, per majority expert opinion, including possibly Krugman per the above quote from Burden of Proof.
A
ajt400
Guest
Even proof of prior abuse doesn't prove who was doing it. I was abused as a child by a family friend on many more than one occasion. It just proves she was abused prior to the fact, and she could have been abused by more than one person.
Why wouldn't the family doctor say anything to the BPD if he had any knowledge of sexual abuse? They are required to by law, and he could be held accountable now if there was prior abuse. (Because she was murdered) Esp. since so many have said that their was evidence of that abuse!
I hope you don't just take all of your opinions because of the majority, just becasue it is do doesn't make it right!!
Why wouldn't the family doctor say anything to the BPD if he had any knowledge of sexual abuse? They are required to by law, and he could be held accountable now if there was prior abuse. (Because she was murdered) Esp. since so many have said that their was evidence of that abuse!
I hope you don't just take all of your opinions because of the majority, just becasue it is do doesn't make it right!!
Barbara
New Member
"I hope you don't just take all of your opinions because of the majority, just becasue it is do doesn't make it right!!"
So if one shouldn't base an opinion on the majority of experts, just how should one base an opinion? How do you develop your opinions?
So if one shouldn't base an opinion on the majority of experts, just how should one base an opinion? How do you develop your opinions?
A
ajt400
Guest
On what I think....not just what a majority believes. The majority has been wrong before.
Britt
New Member
JonBenét's doctor, Dr. Beuf, didn't know whether JB was abused or not because he didn't look. He said so himself.
From Diane Sawyer's interview with Dr. Beuf:
DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?
Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.
He couldn't say for sure. He didn't look. He didn't know.
ABC Primetime Live, September 10, 1997
A
ajt400
Guest
So, then she didn't show classic signs of sexual abuse that is evident with how she acted? He had no reason tosuspect abuse?
Barbara
New Member
Most family pediatricians do not normally look for signs of sexual abuse or any other abuse for that matter.
In today's age, doctors are more sensitive to the signs of all types of abuses, but not routinely, especially private pediatricians.
Here in NYS, there is a certificate course for child abuse investigators. I had to become certified in this area due to the nature of my job, working with the developmentally disabled. I can tell you first hand, that most doctors, according to the experts who taught the course do not "look" for abuse.
I can't recall my daughter's pediatrician ever doing a thorough vaginal exam. Everything was a cursory look to make sure nothing was obviously wrong, but even he would only be looking for irritation, bacteria, etc., not for sexual contact.
Unfortunately, times change and doctors must be more observant
In today's age, doctors are more sensitive to the signs of all types of abuses, but not routinely, especially private pediatricians.
Here in NYS, there is a certificate course for child abuse investigators. I had to become certified in this area due to the nature of my job, working with the developmentally disabled. I can tell you first hand, that most doctors, according to the experts who taught the course do not "look" for abuse.
I can't recall my daughter's pediatrician ever doing a thorough vaginal exam. Everything was a cursory look to make sure nothing was obviously wrong, but even he would only be looking for irritation, bacteria, etc., not for sexual contact.
Unfortunately, times change and doctors must be more observant
A
ajt400
Guest
Doesn't a child show signs of being abused, not just nec. the physical but things such as excessive wetting of the bed, drawing away from group activites? (I am drawing at blanks here because I am not sure...)
Agreed, their needs to be something more done to assure that child abuse does not happen to any child, well-hidden or not.
I would be thourougly disappointed in any physician that didn't report the abuse if they thought it could be happening....
Also Barbara, I am sorry about my earlier tone. I am a bit of a smart-*advertiser censored*%, it is one of my best and worst qualities, I can't hold it back sometimes.
Hopefully my apology is accepted, I mean no harm to anyone hear.
To be honest I love to debate and discuss this case because there are many avenues that need to be checked. I am convinced this case could be solved if someone that is not biased looked at the evidence.
Agreed, their needs to be something more done to assure that child abuse does not happen to any child, well-hidden or not.
I would be thourougly disappointed in any physician that didn't report the abuse if they thought it could be happening....
Also Barbara, I am sorry about my earlier tone. I am a bit of a smart-*advertiser censored*%, it is one of my best and worst qualities, I can't hold it back sometimes.
Hopefully my apology is accepted, I mean no harm to anyone hear.
To be honest I love to debate and discuss this case because there are many avenues that need to be checked. I am convinced this case could be solved if someone that is not biased looked at the evidence.
tipper
Former Member
Sounds to me like he thinks he "probably" would have seen it.
From Diane Sawyer's interview with Dr. Beuf:
DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?
Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.
From Diane Sawyer's interview with Dr. Beuf:
DIANE SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?
Dr. FRANCESCO BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.
Jayelles
New Member
I think that one of the points regarding the sexual abuse is that it may have commenced on or around the 23rd December. JonBenet was noted to be shy (declining to sing) reported as saying that she "didn't feel pretty" (strange thing for someone to make up) and then she was allegedly unwell that Christmas Day - not eating much.
Could these be signs of sexual abuse newly commenced?
Could these be signs of sexual abuse newly commenced?