Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...

[juli99]

Right you are!

CNN.com - Transcripts

According to Larry Schiller:

"There`s a palm print and a fingerprint still unidentified. So there`s a lot of evidence that the police are still running down."

So whose are they?

 

[kaykay543]

Agreed. People like to think that every single thing about this case was masterfully planned, down to every little detail. It wasn't. PR kept the same clothes on because she simply didn't have enough time to change and make the police call before their scheduled flight the next morning. That's it. These aren't long-time criminal masterminds here.

Totally agree. IMO none of this was preplanned. It was all done in panic mode. 5 hours is not much time at all to get their crap together after JBR was killed.

Think of the practice ransom notes and then the final note. that probably took at least an hour. I suspect more than an hour. Let’s just say an hour of shock and asking each other what are we going to do? At least 2 hours gone and the clock is ticking. Now they have to redress her, move her, probably do a lot of rearranging and even cleaning. Delete videos and pics off the camera.

There was a lot to get done in a small span of time.

I have always thought had the police let the FBI take over; it would have been solved in 48 hours

 

[FY1234]

Right you are!

CNN.com - Transcripts

According to Larry Schiller:

"There`s a palm print and a fingerprint still unidentified. So there`s a lot of evidence that the police are still running down."

So whose are they?

The palm print was Melinda's (John's daughter) from one of her visits before the murder. I haven't heard about a unidentified fingerprint.

 

[UKGuy]

Totally agree. IMO none of this was preplanned. It was all done in panic mode. 5 hours is not much time at all to get their crap together after JBR was killed.

Think of the practice ransom notes and then the final note. that probably took at least an hour. I suspect more than an hour. Let’s just say an hour of shock and asking each other what are we going to do? At least 2 hours gone and the clock is ticking. Now they have to redress her, move her, probably do a lot of rearranging and even cleaning. Delete videos and pics off the camera.

There was a lot to get done in a small span of time.

I have always thought had the police let the FBI take over; it would have been solved in 48 hours

kaykay543,
Well observed. That's if they really had five hours?

I reckon if Patsy had five hours she would not have missed the pineapple snack, or the size-12's those are gigantic red flags if you are inventing a staged crime-scene.

My 2-cents are that the parents revised a prior staging at the last minute, that's why it has so many anomalies.

Assuming JonBenet was sexually assaulted and its not staged then Patsy staged John out of the case, alternatively Patsy and John staged Burke out of the case.

Could be as per Steve Thomas John helped stage Patsy out of the case but that's a big ask given all the self-incriminatory forensic evidence deposited by Patsy.

The front runner is JDI as a common sense theory, but BDI is more consistent given the forensic evidence, i.e. very little links to JR.

.

 

[juli99]

If there was no ransom note, what would have happened?

Let's say Patsy calls 911 at the same time around 6 in the morning.
No wait, she would not call 911, because she would not immediately think something is wrong.
Let's say she's up at 6.
Needs the kids up by 7 at the latest, to get to the plane.
Can't find Jonbenet... oh she must be hiding somewhere. Let's look for her.
Maybe half an hour passes... we really can't find her. JR and BR are now helping look. Plane is put on hold.
An hour passes. Calls the Whites or Fernies in a panic.
They come over and everyone looks.
Probably she is found at some time during this search. If not, maybe they call 911. More likely they find her.
Then... they call 911.

So what advantage was there to the ransom note?
-she was found much later than she might have been.
-she was found with police present.
-parents are not under immediate suspicion.
-BR can be sent out of the house.

Maybe she went to call 911 and realized it was too soon to be calling in a missing child.
So she wrote the note right before she called.
Just speculation, and I don't know where I'm going with this because I've always been IDI.

 

[UKGuy]

If there was no ransom note, what would have happened?

Let's say Patsy calls 911 at the same time around 6 in the morning.
No wait, she would not call 911, because she would not immediately think something is wrong.
Let's say she's up at 6.
Needs the kids up by 7 at the latest, to get to the plane.
Can't find Jonbenet... oh she must be hiding somewhere. Let's look for her.
Maybe half an hour passes... we really can't find her. JR and BR are now helping look. Plane is put on hold.
An hour passes. Calls the Whites or Fernies in a panic.
They come over and everyone looks.
Probably she is found at some time during this search. If not, maybe they call 911. More likely they find her.
Then... they call 911.

So what advantage was there to the ransom note?
-she was found much later than she might have been.
-she was found with police present.
-parents are not under immediate suspicion.
-BR can be sent out of the house.

Maybe she went to call 911 and realized it was too soon to be calling in a missing child.
So she wrote the note right before she called.
Just speculation, and I don't know where I'm going with this because I've always been IDI.

juli99,
Over the years the consensus arrived at is the case is RDI, so IDI does not figure much anymore.

If you accept the True Bills then they mean the parents negelected JonBenet and assisted the Intruder, that's where your IDI leads.

The reason for the Ransom Note is to explain why JonBenet was found in the wine-cellar and not in her bedroom, its that simple !

And moving JonBenet divorces her body from the primary crime-scene. Lou Smit thought a psychopathic sexual deviant had targeted JonBenet, so why bother with a ransom note?

Just about everyone and their dog knows the case is RDI, even the Ramsey's know this, see BR on Dr Phil admittng as much, telling Dr Phil he never killed or sexually assaulted his sister.

.

 

[juli99]

I hope DNA solves this case. I am so confused why everyone refuses to believe it could be IDI.

 

[Tadpole12]

found the ref, juli99

JonBenet Ramsey Case Encyclopedia / The Body

"Fingerprints. According to Schiller, "Meyers also suspended the autopsy while a CBI Technician walked Trujillo through the process of lifting fingerprints off of JBRs body. One partial print was lifted.....Meyers decided not to make notes of these events in his report" (Schiller, 1999a:156"

As far as 'refusing to believe',
I don't think that is the case.
Some posters have arrived at a conclusion after 2 decades of reading & research.
Many began their search as adamant IDI.

 

[FY1234]

Not so. It’s called psychological distancing. They needed to remove Burke from the house and they moved him to the “safety” of his best friends house away from family, friends, and law enforcement. Not only would LE be trying to interview and talk to Burke, but, the Fernies and Whites would be able to observe Burke and know if he was acting strange etc.. In fact, it was Barbara Fernie would told LE that something was off with Burke because he was still in bed that morning when all of this was going on. She knew Burke, like her son Luke, was an early riser and thought it was weird that he would still be in bed, especially with some great new toys to play with.

If LE kept trying to talk with Burke and they
kept refusing than they would have looked guilty as hell.

Whisking Burke away from the scene was planned and it worked.

Interesting, where did you read Barbara Fernie told LE about Burke?

 

[MaryG12]

I think Burke did it, it was an accident, both Patsy and John covered up for him. They already lost one child, they did not want to lose another child.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Burke did it, it was an accident, both Patsy and John covered up for him. They already lost one child, they did not want to lose another child.

MaryG12,
You could be right, particularly if Kolar's theory holds since what Kolar cannot tell us is any medical information relating to JonBenet or Burke.

We know in the months leading to her death JonBenet was seeing a therapist, Patsy leaked this in one of her interviews.

So Kolar might be aware of the medical issues between Burke and JonBenet that might have led to her death, but cannot tell us due to the GJ rules, etc.

One of the GJ counts leveled at both parents was one of neglect, suggesting both parents knew whomever assaulted JonBenet was a potential danger.

.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

The only thing I know for sure is that the person(s) responsible:

Wrote the note
Hit her on the head
Strangled her
Redressed her
Got her out of her bedroom
Got her down to the basement
Had at least some knowledge of the house layout
Cared for her somewhat (blanket)
Was in the house between the time they got home and the next morning
Seemed to be improvising (paintbrush, notepad, etc.)
Left no fingerprints
Chose to be in the house on Christmas day
Knew about JR's bonus
Was a movie buff

Anything else...?

Well someone would had to molest her ,just a little like granny Nedra said, then redress her before they took her to the basement. There were no size twelves in JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom, but there were in wine cellar.
She couldn't of been strangled in her bedroom because she was still alive in the basement and urinated on the carpet as she was being murdered then put in the wine cellar. She had to of been redressed down there because that is where the size twelves were.

 

[kaykay543]

kaykay543,
Well observed. That's if they really had five hours?

I reckon if Patsy had five hours she would not have missed the pineapple snack, or the size-12's those are gigantic red flags if you are inventing a staged crime-scene.

My 2-cents are that the parents revised a prior staging at the last minute, that's why it has so many anomalies.

Assuming JonBenet was sexually assaulted and its not staged then Patsy staged John out of the case, alternatively Patsy and John staged Burke out of the case.

Could be as per Steve Thomas John helped stage Patsy out of the case but that's a big ask given all the self-incriminatory forensic evidence deposited by Patsy.

The front runner is JDI as a common sense theory, but BDI is more consistent given the forensic evidence, i.e. very little links to JR.

.

I was giving a best case scenario about how much time they had. Since we really don't know what time JBR died we just have to guess. I do feel she never changed out of her clothes so I feel it was somewhat early (midnight to 1 am) but of course that is a guess.

I have gone back and forth between BR and JR for years. I can never decide which one actually killed her. I have never felt that PR killed her as some do. But she for sure wrote the RN and did the staging.

I was really thinking about this last night (with Christmas around the corner) and how all those people's worlds turned upside down in just a few hours. And on the biggest holiday of the year. The Ramseys, Whites, Stines, Fernies etc. Life would never be the same again for any of them.

And here we are all these years later still trying to figure out exactly who did it.

 

[UKGuy]

I was giving a best case scenario about how much time they had. Since we really don't know what time JBR died we just have to guess. I do feel she never changed out of her clothes so I feel it was somewhat early (midnight to 1 am) but of course that is a guess.

I have gone back and forth between BR and JR for years. I can never decide which one actually killed her. I have never felt that PR killed her as some do. But she for sure wrote the RN and did the staging.

I was really thinking about this last night (with Christmas around the corner) and how all those people's worlds turned upside down in just a few hours. And on the biggest holiday of the year. The Ramseys, Whites, Stines, Fernies etc. Life would never be the same again for any of them.

And here we are all these years later still trying to figure out exactly who did it.

kaykay543

I was giving a best case scenario about how much time they had. Since we really don't know what time JBR died we just have to guess.

I do feel she never changed out of her clothes so I feel it was somewhat early (midnight to 1 am) but of course that is a guess.

Assuming standard postmortem effects, onset of rigor, I agree JonBenet died somewhere between 12:00 and 13:00 hours. Could be a little later or earlier, but it does give the person who killed JonBenet time to stage, this is important, I like to think Patsy could have ran JonBenet's clothing through the washing machine, spun dried them and nobody would have been the wiser?

I have gone back and forth between BR and JR for years. I can never decide which one actually killed her. I have never felt that PR killed her as some do. But she for sure wrote the RN and did the staging.

Yes Patsy more or less staged the wine-cellar, its possible JR tweaked it that morning?

I feel you can rule out PDI since why would a guilty Patsy stage the wine-cellar then open her front door in yesterday's clothes, surely she would want fresh clothes to make her version of events consistent?

Same with Patsy's evidence left all over JonBenet in the wine-cellar, why bother when the same result can be had in JonBenet's bedroom, without linking Patsy to JonBenet's death?

Also if it is PDI and JonBenet's sexual assault was faked as part of the staging, why does JR allow this knowing in advance a sexual assault would put him in the frame?

The injuries on JonBenet suggest someone went postal on her, quite likely in a bedroom as she had had her hair dressed for bed, with the pineapple snack forgotten about in the ensuing panic?

Over the years I've come to think everything in the wine-cellar is part of the staging since the Ramsey's want to divorce its contents from life upstairs?

.

 

[Swirlz]

JonBenet sustained a 7" lineal fracture front-to-back. Steve Thomas, according to his book, described his theory in a way that fit with low velocity-high pressure trauma which would likely be consistent with JonBenet having been tossed, pushed or thrown into a hard surface. His opinion matches what I've seen in the autopsy report and photos that are available to the public.

It began as a typical child abuse homicide, caused like in almost every other case where a child is killed in the home, by a parent. It is not significantly unlike the hundreds of other battering deaths of children that occur every year.

The rest of it was staging, done by an adult who was desperate to keep JonBenet out of an ER, where evidence of prior vaginal trauma as noted in the autopsy report by chronic inflammation would be uncovered.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

kaykay543

Assuming standard postmortem effects, onset of rigor, I agree JonBenet died somewhere between 12:00 and 13:00 hours. Could be a little later or earlier, but it does give the person who killed JonBenet time to stage, this is important, I like to think Patsy could have ran JonBenet's clothing through the washing machine, spun dried them and nobody would have been the wiser?


Yes Patsy more or less staged the wine-cellar, its possible JR tweaked it that morning?

I feel you can rule out PDI since why would a guilty Patsy stage the wine-cellar then open her front door in yesterday's clothes, surely she would want fresh clothes to make her version of events consistent?

Same with Patsy's evidence left all over JonBenet in the wine-cellar, why bother when the same result can be had in JonBenet's bedroom, without linking Patsy to JonBenet's death?

Also if it is PDI and JonBenet's sexual assault was faked as part of the staging, why does JR allow this knowing in advance a sexual assault would put him in the frame?

The injuries on JonBenet suggest someone went postal on her, quite likely in a bedroom as she had had her hair dressed for bed, with the pineapple snack forgotten about in the ensuing panic?

Over the years I've come to think everything in the wine-cellar is part of the staging since the Ramsey's want to divorce its contents from life upstairs?

.

About the time Melody Stanton heard a child scream. I do think it was JonBenet when she was hit or slammed into something. Her murder about two hours later in the basement.

I think Pasty ran out of time. She had to wake John up in a panic before his alarm went off. For all he knew, Pasty was up and dressed before him and was getting the kids ready to leave. She was already dressed to him and not in a robe, and she thought no one else would notice it that morning....

Could the pineapple of been left out from breakfast that morning? Pasty fixing it and Burke sitting it on the table for their breakfast feast? Pasty wasn't known to clean up after herself, and she could of left it for LHP to do.

I keep circling back to Pasty

 

[kaykay543]

About the time Melody Stanton heard a child scream. I do think it was JonBenet when she was hit or slammed into something. Her murder about two hours later in the basement.

I think Pasty ran out of time. She had to wake John up in a panic before his alarm went off. For all he knew, Pasty was up and dressed before him and was getting the kids ready to leave. She was already dressed to him and not in a robe, and she thought no one else would notice it that morning....

Could the pineapple of been left out from breakfast that morning? Pasty fixing it and Burke sitting it on the table for their breakfast feast? Pasty wasn't known to clean up after herself, and she could of left it for LHP to do.

I keep circling back to Pasty

The story they give though is that JR got up first and jumped in the shower. Then PR got up about 15 mins later and went to make coffee and saw the note. Course I don't believe any of that. I believe they were both basically up all night. JR timeline doesn't work at all. He said he was reading the note when PR called 911 in his underwear. Then after the call; he ran upstairs and got dressed, checked on BR etc. But the police were there within like 3 mins of the call. JR was downstairs and dressed. So JR is obviously lying.

I am curious why you think JR wasn't involved until that morning? I think he was involved from the get go. His fibers were in the crotch of her underwear.

 

[Swirlz]

From a Wendy Murphy article regarding the fibers in the underpants:

"Police told John Ramsey they found black wool sweater fibers inside the underpants JonBenet was wearing when her body was found, fibers that matched the Israeli wool sweater John was wearing on the night in question. Ramsey had no explanation for how the fibers could have gotten there, so he just yelled and filibustered – a common tactic when the suspect doesn’t want to, or can’t, answer a particular question. If the facts were different, he might have said the sweater fibers got there through laundering. But the sweater was never washed – it was wool – and the underpants were three sizes too big and had never been worn before."

WENDY MURPHY: AND JUSTICE FOR SOME: The district attorney should apologize to JonBenet, not to her parents

 

[archieil]

The killer was wearing some wool clothes.

I met somewhere an information about PR stating this sweater was a day earlier in the laundry but I am not able to give a link to my source. I am sure JR was not able to say where the sweater was before he wears it.

The problem with a wool is that it is prone to electrostatic and there is evidence the killer was wearing some clothes prone to electrostatic.

The question is:
Were fibers proved to be part of the sweater? or it was just a media information to keep attention.

there is a difference between black wool fibers and some direct possibility of connecting these fibers with the sweater.
I do not have this knowledge. I will try to source my earlier statement the sweater was in the laundry area day earlier.

 

[AdorableOrca96]

As far as guilt, a ton of evidence, circumstances, statements, etc. points to someone in the family killing JonBenét. My belief is it was an accident (maybe) by Burke, and then John and Patsy staged a crime scene to try and keep suspicious eyes off of them.
If by some magical reason it wasn’t any of them, they know who did it and will carry the truth to their graves (Patsy already did, it seems). The intruder theory isn’t impossible, but it’s so far fetched it might as well be at this point. I also agree with kaykay543 above, if the FBI took over, it would’ve been an open and shut case and we wouldn’t be pushing to get justice for JonBenét 22 years later.
Money talks, too. I don’t know why, but I have a feeling John bought some people’s silence in all of this..
All MOO.