Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[InstantProof]

IMO, if IDI, the note was prepared in advance, possibly on a different paper and then copied to the notepad on-site. Some IDI think he actually removed the notepad from the house on a previous occasion, drafted the RN at leisure and then returned the pad with note on the night of the crime.

I don’t know that he removed any cord or tape from the house, He may have used up all the cord and tape that he brought with him.
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AK

Do you think the letter is intentionally suspicious to frame them? Is that why it's copied to their pad (or the pad is removed and brought back)? That seems so passive aggressive to me. I have a hard time putting that sort of angry together with murder of a child. I also don't see how someone would think, even on their pad and all that, that blaming an intruder would point the finger at the parents. There's got to be much better ways of framing people for something.

 

[AndHence]

To me this IDI theorizing is needlessly complex with a lot of flaws. It also supposes a lot about this master criminal intruder. The intruder would have to be able to sufficiently mimic Patsy's handwriting, have frequent undisturbed access to the house (to take the pad or writing samples), and obviously a huge vendetta against the family. Let's say all this is true. Why hide the body? Why not display it in front of the Christmas tree as the ultimate eff you to the family? Why the molestation if the motive wasn't sexual or monetary? Why hang around the house that night for that many hours? And lastly, why choose Christmas night when there's always a risk of extended family staying at the house? Terrible night for a burglary or kidnapping in general.

 

[Ellie9]

The letter may have tried to give them a way around any neighbors reports; it tells them to contact no one and tells John to carry an "adequate size attaché".

I had a thought very similar to this. I thought the "plenty of rest" line was an attempt to make police give them some alone time, so they could figure out a plan together and execute it, or if things weren't looking good leave the country.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

To me this IDI theorizing is needlessly complex with a lot of flaws. It also supposes a lot about this master criminal intruder. The intruder would have to be able to sufficiently mimic Patsy's handwriting, have frequent undisturbed access to the house (to take the pad or writing samples), and obviously a huge vendetta against the family. Let's say all this is true. Why hide the body? Why not display it in front of the Christmas tree as the ultimate eff you to the family? Why the molestation if the motive wasn't sexual or monetary? Why hang around the house that night for that many hours? And lastly, why choose Christmas night when there's always a risk of extended family staying at the house? Terrible night for a burglary or kidnapping in general.

There are crazy crimes all the time that are insane to the normal but make sense to the killer. Jessica Lunsford What would make that man think he could get into her house and out with her, take her home and not ever been found out within how many feet of her home?
I still believe that the goal was to remove her from the home and it was thwarted.
It does not have to be a master. Just someone with a plan and dumb luck.
I think that the body was not hidden per se but brought down there when the plan went bad to get her out of the house so that he could go on with his plan and when he finalized his evil plans he just left her there.

It makes no sense whatsoever to hide the body of your child in the house. None. It makes no sense to stage an injury.

It makes no sense to write a note and try to make it a kidnapping.

All of that is the crazy stuff. IMO.

Sometimes crazy horrible people break into houses and kill people and hurt them. It just happens.

 

[OliviaG1996]

There are crazy crimes all the time that are insane to the normal but make sense to the killer. Jessica Lunsford What would make that man think he could get into her house and out with her, take her home and not ever been found out within how many feet of her home?
I still believe that the goal was to remove her from the home and it was thwarted.
It does not have to be a master. Just someone with a plan and dumb luck.
I think that the body was not hidden per se but brought down there when the plan went bad to get her out of the house so that he could go on with his plan and when he finalized his evil plans he just left her there.

It makes no sense whatsoever to hide the body of your child in the house. None. It makes no sense to stage an injury.

It makes no sense to write a note and try to make it a kidnapping.

All of that is the crazy stuff. IMO.

Sometimes crazy horrible people break into houses and kill people and hurt them. It just happens.

What was your intruder's plan thwarted by? They could've taken JBR from her bed and gone straight outside through the pantry door which was close by. If they killed her in the house before they intended to, they could've collected their $118,000 anyway if they took her body with them.

 

[BOESP]

A test was done on a child cadaver with the same flashlight as the Ramseys and the damage to the skull was similar.

andreww, do you know of an on-line report and photos on this? I'm not doubting you! I'd just be interested in reading the specs on this and seeing the evidence. TIA

ETA: do you know if an adult male performed the experiment or was it done by mechanical means with a set velocity and pressure?

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

What was your intruder's plan thwarted by? They could've taken JBR from her bed and gone straight outside through the pantry door which was close by. If they killed her in the house before they intended to, they could've collected their $118,000 anyway if they took her body with them.

I don't believe the intention was ever to collect the money.. But to have time to get away. I don't know by what? Maybe she was more injured than they planned, Maybe there were cars driving by, Maybe they heard a noise?? I am not psychic, But I do find it makes sense that they planned to take her supported by the note and what was done to her.

 

[OliviaG1996]

I don't believe the intention was ever to collect the money.. But to have time to get away. I don't know by what? Maybe she was more injured than they planned, Maybe there were cars driving by, Maybe they heard a noise?? I am not psychic, But I do find it makes sense that they planned to take her supported by the note and what was done to her.

It doesn't make sense that because they heard a noise, they decided to take JBR into the basement and stay inside the house longer than they planned, risking getting caught by her family rather than just taking her outside to their vehicle and driving off. If the plan was only to take her, why write a note at all? Most people agree there was staging. Why stage the scene in the wine cellar if you're running out of precious time?

 

[andreww]

andreww, do you know of an on-line report and photos on this? I'm not doubting you! I'd just be interested in reading the specs on this and seeing the evidence. TIA

ETA: do you know if an adult male performed the experiment or was it done by mechanical means with a set velocity and pressure?

AK posted this a few pages back. Thats about all I know about it.

From the Thomas book:
“… Some perceived it as a possible murder weapon, although that was never proved.
“Dr Werner Spitz, the forensic scientist, even ran macabre tests to see if the heavy flashlight could have inflicted the kind of massive skull fracture that was found on Jonbenet. To do so, a child’s cadaver was obtained so he could strike the skull with a similar flashlight and examine the resulting injury pattern. He said the results were consistent, that the damage could have been caused by the flashlight – but it could also have been caused by other things.” P. 239

 

[andreww]

I don't believe the intention was ever to collect the money.. But to have time to get away. I don't know by what? Maybe she was more injured than they planned, Maybe there were cars driving by, Maybe they heard a noise?? I am not psychic, But I do find it makes sense that they planned to take her supported by the note and what was done to her.

That's just ridiculous. Assuming an intruder did this, the most likely place for him to be caught would be in the actual house. To sit and write 3 pages plus a couple of practice pages in order to buy more time makes zero sense.

 

[InstantProof]

There are crazy crimes all the time that are insane to the normal but make sense to the killer. Jessica Lunsford What would make that man think he could get into her house and out with her, take her home and not ever been found out within how many feet of her home?
I still believe that the goal was to remove her from the home and it was thwarted.
It does not have to be a master. Just someone with a plan and dumb luck.
I think that the body was not hidden per se but brought down there when the plan went bad to get her out of the house so that he could go on with his plan and when he finalized his evil plans he just left her there.

It makes no sense whatsoever to hide the body of your child in the house. None. It makes no sense to stage an injury.

It makes no sense to write a note and try to make it a kidnapping.

All of that is the crazy stuff. IMO.

Sometimes crazy horrible people break into houses and kill people and hurt them. It just happens.

Neither the Ramsey's staging or IDI makes any real sense and it can be argued forever. If the R's staged a scene, they would have reason to. I'm not sure I see what an intruder was trying to accomplish. Maybe a faked scene is the one that isn't going to make sense?

 

[andreww]

There are crazy crimes all the time that are insane to the normal but make sense to the killer. Jessica Lunsford What would make that man think he could get into her house and out with her, take her home and not ever been found out within how many feet of her home?
I still believe that the goal was to remove her from the home and it was thwarted.
It does not have to be a master. Just someone with a plan and dumb luck.
I think that the body was not hidden per se but brought down there when the plan went bad to get her out of the house so that he could go on with his plan and when he finalized his evil plans he just left her there.

It makes no sense whatsoever to hide the body of your child in the house. None. It makes no sense to stage an injury.

It makes no sense to write a note and try to make it a kidnapping.

All of that is the crazy stuff. IMO.

Sometimes crazy horrible people break into houses and kill people and hurt them. It just happens.

That is laughable. Everybody in that house swears they heard and saw nothing despite the fact that this intruder broke in to the house, hunted around for a flashlight, tasered jonbenet, took her downstairs and made her a pinapple snack and a glass of ice tea, then tasered her again, took her to the basement for a couple of hours to allow the pineapple to digest, smashed her on the head, then waited another 40 minutes before strangling her. Then he ties her wrists and duct tapes her wrists before going upstairs to write five pages of notes. He then puts everything away neatly except the flashlight for some reason, and leaves. And nobody heard a thing. And your intruder didn't seem to have any fear of being heard. Ya, right:gaah:

 

[andreww]

They couldn't remove JB for fear of neighbors seeing, either.

It goes far beyond that. By keeping her in their home they minimized the crime scene, and kept it in a place that was forensically safe for them. In their home, any hairs, fibres or prints are easily explained. If they were to take the body to a field somewhere, all it would take would be one hair in the immediate area. You can't explain that. Safer to keep her in the home. No witnesses and no forensics to worry about.

 

[InstantProof]

Hindsight is 20/20. I'm sure the R's slapped their foreheads often after the fact.

 

[Anti-K]

AK, I saw the bruise comment in his AMA.

Thank you. I’ll check it out when I can find a spare minute, or two…
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Quite a lot of snark with trying to make me sound as though my thoughts are stupid. (ETA) I should explain this. I was the first one to bring up Occam's Razor in our discussions and since then anytime I ask anything new you say it goes against it. I think it's a rude debate technique used to belittle someone. And your use of it is wrong, especially in this case, which makes it clear you're more in the business of throwing insults at people than you are actually discussing the case itself. I've seen you sarcastically mimic other posters words as well. If you had a good argument of your own you wouldn't have to be this snarky.

Now back to the actual case.

Anyway, I am doing something called trying to look at the case from different angles. That was my final foray into the idea an intruder could have been responsible, dropping his kidnapping victim down from a high point. Thank you for ruling it out, I can now avoid senseless ideas and focus on working out what I feel is the best RDI theory.

With all the lies from the Ramsey's it is honestly nearly impossible to still attempt to picture this crime as an outside job.

One final thought I had. Did anyone else notice that the Ramsey's never disagree with each other, even on minor points? Maybe I'm missing something. But they always agree.

I bring this up because I just watched a documentary on Elizabeth smart, and her parents are in an interview on tv, and one parent corrects the other on a detail of timing or something along these lines. To me this showed two parents desperate to get every fact out in the open so that people could help them find their daughter. I just don't see this behaviour with Ramsey's. They constantly look like two people with something to hide, and didn't help the police nearly as much as you'd expect if innocent.

Have they ever worked out a fact on camera from memory and shared experience? Did I miss this?

The last interview I recently saw was their one in Hawaii I think. Some Christian tv show. They both played up their religion so much it was sickening to watch. Barely talked about the case and then talked about religion for the whole time, working the audience. It was quite an act they put on.


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Sometimes I cross a line, and when I’m called on it, I apologize (or, try to explain myself). But, this time I think the true snark and insults are from you to me. None of this is necessary.

You don’t own occams’s razor and I’m pretty confident that I am using it correctly. I’ve been using it for years and years before jbr was even born, never mind murdered and I’ve been using it on the forums long before you and I ever encountered each other. Attack my reason and arguments, leave “me” alone. There’s no reason why we can’t all get along.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

This is really hard to understand here. There were rough drafts done, one small draft left in the tablet itself. With so much planning ahead and time, why did the intruder bother? Also, he broke in twice (at least), both times leaving no mark or evidence? The only part of this I can say could work is that I guess it's possible people wouldn't notice one tablet and pen missing for a while. Otherwise, this is kind of a messy theory imo.

Also, why would a kidnapper write a ransom note if he wanted the girl dead anyway (according to your other post). If the person was doing this to hurt the parents, or one parent, they would have left the body on display and wouldn't have done anything to cover the child in a blanket, re-dress her, etc. I can only see cleaning the body as something he would have done to erase evidence. However, he then hides the body in one of the best/most remote hiding places in the house honestly... and still leaves a note.... it just doesn't really add up.

What is your theory exactly? He planned a murder so wrote a note in advance?

And how could one go walking around with a small strip of duct tape? I don't get this. He managed to climb into a tiny basement window through a tiny window grate cover thing, all while not making this tape unsticky or folded up into itself? And then doesn't even need the tape?

What exactly is the main idea behind your theory? I'm getting very confused by it to be honest.

I have more than one theory, but my main and fav “theory” is here (4 parts) http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh:

I gave you this link in a previous post; this one: http://tinyurl.com/hgmy78u

You read it, and you wrote this in response: “thanks for taking the time to share your theories and your perspective on the ransom note. It's certainly a lot to think about.” Http://tinyurl.com/j848z2a

So, why are you now acting like you never read it? If you don’t understand it or want to discuss it (or, point out why it’s wrong), then we can do that; but, please, don’t pretend like you don’t know about it when you already commented on it.

Once again, I have more than one theory, but my main and fav “theory” is here (4 parts) http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh:
.

BTW, I agree, this wasn’t something done to hurt the parents.

Tape: you rio off a piece and you stick it to the inside of your jacket or around your flashlight, or – for those IDI who think the notepad had been removed earlier – stick it to the notepad. I don’t know that this happened, it’s just speculation.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Well John didn't check very well did he? Or he's lying? Again, he said he checked all the main floor doors and they were locked.


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I think he didn’t check very well, that he can’t tell time and that he is the quintessential unreliable eye witness.
…AK

 

[Anti-K]

What do I care what other people think? Some are dumb enough to still believe an intruder did it for crying out loud


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I know!!
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

Believe me, he doesn't have a theory. He pretends to, but it's a weird "murder mystery" scenario than lacks any detail. He prefers it that way so he can pick apart RDI theories piece by piece without having to worry that what he proposes doesn't make sense as a whole. He'll argue one point based on it being a sexual deviant, the next will be argued from the pretext of a foreign terrorist, and the next will be based on the idea of it being a neighborhood Santa. Sure, he adequately debates each point rationally, but when you look at all three points together, it makes no sense.


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Ad hominem; straw man.
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AK