Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

[DeeDee249]

I think the MyTwinn dolls are creepy. Especially in the box.
But I agree that I do not see anything suspicious about the doll other than Patsy wanting to "memorialize" JB during this time of her life.
JB had a little friend over playing at the R house and she had seen the huge collection of trophies JB had. JB was said to have told her "they're really my mom's".
I think JB did enjoy the pageants, but I bet she was tired of all the dance, voice, coaching that went along with it. I think she sensed it was much more important to her mother (and grandmother) than it was to her.

 

[bettybaby00]

I think the MyTwinn dolls are creepy. Especially in the box.
But I agree that I do not see anything suspicious about the doll other than Patsy wanting to "memorialize" JB during this time of her life.
JB had a little friend over playing at the R house and she had seen the huge collection of trophies JB had. JB was said to have told her "they're really my mom's".
I think JB did enjoy the pageants, but I bet she was tired of all the dance, voice, coaching that went along with it. I think she sensed it was much more important to her mother (and grandmother) than it was to her.

Agree with the last part. I don't think too many kids that age are into that much of a commitment, it probably feels like " when did this stop being fun?!"

And I think that's true for any kid, with any activity. Be it sports, music whatever. Of course there will be kids that into something from an early age, but for many it's likely more about fulfilling the parent's ambitions rather than their own.

As for the my twin doll. I don't see it as a weird, or bad thing she ordered one for JonBenet. I never considered anything like that for my daughter b/c she wasn't into dolls at all! She preferred her stuffed animals, especially character driven ones., i.e., Elmo, Clifford the Big Red Dog!

I think the only doll she ever really had or enjoyed was a Madeline one

 

[DeDee]

I disagree. It's no more likely it was corporal abuse than what it appeared to be.

I've never heard of an actual case of corporal cleansing abuse. Closest I've ever even heard of occurred in the movie Sybil.

Prior vaginal trauma is consistent with digital penetration or a small underdeveloped penis, a crayon, etc...or part of the grooming process by an adult male....or a woman ...IMO


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Just to be clear, those were Steve Thomas' opinions regarding corporal punishment. They are not my own.

The perfect Patsy with her perfect family would not have been pleased for her perfect 6yo daughter to be wetting nor soiling the bed or her clothes. She may have seen it as a sign of weakness or something that could be controlled by the child.

The housekeeper said Patsy would take JonBenét into the bathroom where she could hear terrible screams from JonBenét. Patsy was punishing her child somehow but I don't think it was in the manner that ST wrote about.

Whoever placed the cord around JonBenét's small neck and pulled tightly, is a person who has the capacity to do almost anything bad. That person could be an intelligent beauty queen, with pretty green eyes, a sweet smile and a lovely voice; one who could also swiftly punish their young daughter for improper wetting and soiling.

:seeya:

 

[DeeDee249]

It had been mentioned that one of Patsy's friends said that Patsy used to use a douche on JB because she thought it would help control JB's infections. When she soiled her pants, obviously some of it got inside her labia, and that was why Patsy wanted to use a douche. Perhaps ST was aware of this allegation and used it to form his "corporal cleansing" theories. If Patsy was angry about her repeated soiling, she may have been a bit too rough with her "cleansing" and it could have accounted for some of the vaginal injuries.
There is also some thought that the "watery red fluid" (watery blood, actually) found at the autopsy in her vagina could be blood mixed with the douche solution. There is no actual proof that this was the case and no official belief that a douche was used on JB the night of her death. Certainly, it could have caused the bleeding that we know did occur, and also caused her to scream. As far as we know, I do not think the "watery red fluid" was tested to determine if it was any kind of cleansing solution. I don't think Patsy using a washcloth roughly would cause the injuries she had and if a washcloth was used roughly, there would be external evidence of the rubbing. I know the "corporal cleansing" is a big part of ST's PDI theory.

 

[Linda7NJ]

It had been mentioned that one of Patsy's friends said that Patsy used to use a douche on JB because she thought it would help control JB's infections. When she soiled her pants, obviously some of it got inside her labia, and that was why Patsy wanted to use a douche. Perhaps ST was aware of this allegation and used it to form his "corporal cleansing" theories. If Patsy was angry about her repeated soiling, she may have been a bit too rough with her "cleansing" and it could have accounted for some of the vaginal injuries.
There is also some thought that the "watery red fluid" (watery blood, actually) found at the autopsy in her vagina could be blood mixed with the douche solution. There is no actual proof that this was the case and no official belief that a douche was used on JB the night of her death. Certainly, it could have caused the bleeding that we know did occur, and also caused her to scream. As far as we know, I do not think the "watery red fluid" was tested to determine if it was any kind of cleansing solution. I don't think Patsy using a washcloth roughly would cause the injuries she had and if a washcloth was used roughly, there would be external evidence of the rubbing. I know the "corporal cleansing" is a big part of ST's PDI theory.

Omg! DeeDee I never heard that before. I feel sick.
A friend of Patsy's said that? Do we know which one and in what context?


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[DeeDee249]

Omg! DeeDee I never heard that before. I feel sick.
A friend of Patsy's said that? Do we know which one and in what context?


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No, Linda, we don't. I don't believe I recall a name. This was long ago, and I think I actually read it on this forum.

 

[DeDee]

I cannot imagine douching a six-year-old little girl for any reason. That makes me ill to consider a small child being punished with injuries in such a harsh way for something beyond their control.

Surely LE would have spotted evidence of the equipment needed to perform such a act. Were disposable douches on the market in '96? Did she keep the douches stored beside the child's disposable diapers?

Patsy bleached JonBenét's hair. Patsy could have administered douches while her child screamed from the discomfort, thus, accounting for the housekeeper's horror stories about PR and JBR in the bathroom.

Poor baby girl.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I cannot imagine douching a six-year-old little girl for any reason. That makes me ill to consider a small child being punished with injuries in such a harsh way for something beyond their control.



Surely LE would have spotted evidence of the equipment needed to perform such a act. Were disposable douches on the market in '96? Did she keep the douches stored beside the child's disposable diapers?



Patsy bleached JonBenét's hair. Patsy could have administered douches while her child screamed from the discomfort, thus, accounting for the housekeeper's horror stories about PR and JBR in the bathroom.



Poor baby girl.

Yes disposables were available.


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[lawstudent]

If there's any credence to the douching thing, why does it have to be associated with a punishment? She may have been panicked about infections from the soiling and didn't do it out of 'retaliation.' This would make this case easier to understand for me, if this was in fact what caused the injuries, although I don't know how easy it would be to cause such injuries through such use. It doesn't seem like bleeding would happen easily, although I guess if JonBenet resisted and Patsy was frustrated it could cause a minor injury. The intentional punishment part of it just seems too much of a stretch to me without more information.

 

[pukasonqo2]

i have no view on this. actually i have never seen a douche so i have no idea how could the use of one explain JB's eroded hymen

my daughter is going to kill me for this, but the most difficult part of potty training her was to teach her to wipe in the right direction! is easier with boys to keep ends "separated" and clean. back to daughter, it was easier to clean her in a warm shower or with baby wipes...JB would have had to have severe encopresis to need such an invasive way of cleaning her


MOO


lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit

 

[DeeDee249]

If there's any credence to the douching thing, why does it have to be associated with a punishment? She may have been panicked about infections from the soiling and didn't do it out of 'retaliation.' This would make this case easier to understand for me, if this was in fact what caused the injuries, although I don't know how easy it would be to cause such injuries through such use. It doesn't seem like bleeding would happen easily, although I guess if JonBenet resisted and Patsy was frustrated it could cause a minor injury. The intentional punishment part of it just seems too much of a stretch to me without more information.

The actual douching would be very uncomfortable if not outright painful for a child. If Patsy did it when JB soiled herself, I can see it being viewed as a "punishment" by either of them. I can almost picture an aggravated Patsy grabbing JB and saying "OK- you can't get yourself to the potty SO....I have to do this."
Bleeding would not occur with an adult female, but a child's vaginal canal is so much smaller/narrower that I can certainly see the douche causing bleeding, especially if it is done too forcefully.

 

[bettybaby00]

The actual douching would be very uncomfortable if not outright painful for a child. If Patsy did it when JB soiled herself, I can see it being viewed as a "punishment" by either of them. I can almost picture an aggravated Patsy grabbing JB and saying "OK- you can't get yourself to the potty SO....I have to do this."
Bleeding would not occur with an adult female, but a child's vaginal canal is so much smaller/narrower that I can certainly see the douche causing bleeding, especially if it is done too forcefully.

For me the coroner's findings and subsequent actions/conclusions carry a lot of weight. When doing the autopsy, he likely had the idea of sexual assault in the back of his mind simply based on what he was presented with. Sadly many, many, many murdered woman, or young girls are raped/assaulted prior to their death. No one "led" him to look for evidence of previous sexual contact. Finding that was the surprise. He saw injuries consistent with sexual abuse, and immediately consulted other experts who agreed with him. Many others would examine those injuries and come to the same conclusion. The only expert I've ever seen "refute" those findings was someone who stated that you need more than just physical evidence, meaning that victim statements are also necessary to confirm abuse. Not sure how that Dr. Expects dead victims to tell tales, but that's another issue.

If the injuries were that ambiguous, one of those consulted would have said, "wait a minute, these injuries could have occurred in another way." I've yet to see any source where that claim was made. Of course her pediatrician denied seeing any signs, b/c at that point he had his own a$$ to cover. Ditto with the parents denial of having any knowledge of previous abuse.

 

[DeeDee249]

For me the coroner's findings and subsequent actions/conclusions carry a lot of weight. When doing the autopsy, he likely had the idea of sexual assault in the back of his mind simply based on what he was presented with. Sadly many, many, many murdered woman, or young girls are raped/assaulted prior to their death. No one "led" him to look for evidence of previous sexual contact. Finding that was the surprise. He saw injuries consistent with sexual abuse, and immediately consulted other experts who agreed with him. Many others would examine those injuries and come to the same conclusion. The only expert I've ever seen "refute" those findings was someone who stated that you need more than just physical evidence, meaning that victim statements are also necessary to confirm abuse. Not sure how that Dr. Expects dead victims to tell tales, but that's another issue.

If the injuries were that ambiguous, one of those consulted would have said, "wait a minute, these injuries could have occurred in another way." I've yet to see any source where that claim was made. Of course her pediatrician denied seeing any signs, b/c at that point he had his own a$$ to cover. Ditto with the parents denial of having any knowledge of previous abuse.

I was responding to another poster regarding the douche. I do not believe her injuries were caused by douching. I believe her injuries were the result of sexual abuse, both that night and on previous occasion(s).

 

[bettybaby00]

I was responding to another poster regarding the douche. I do not believe her injuries were caused by douching. I believe her injuries were the result of sexual abuse, both that night and on previous occasion(s).

I know!!

Just jumped off your post

 

[gramcracker]

i have no view on this. actually i have never seen a douche so i have no idea how could the use of one explain JB's eroded hymen

perhaps there are medical conditions where the insertation of a liquid solution is indicated for a child, I don't know. I would think a vaginal suppository would be preferable. calm/voluntary insertion of a nozzle might not be a problem, but a combination of anger/impatience in the adult and resistance from the child would have very serious consequences

http://www.dollartree.com/assets/product_images/styles/large/947890.jpg

a douche nozzle may have played some part in the observed damage but I do believe there was molestation going on as well

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

The dictionary wasn't dog-eared to the word douche.

 

[gramcracker]

meaning?

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

Yes, meaning.

 

[Venom]

BlueBottle, why would PR have the dictionary dog earred to "incest?"

 

[Blue Bottle 01]

BlueBottle, why would PR have the dictionary dog earred to "incest?"

Going with the theme that what was done that night was done by Patsy for Patsy; the dog-eared page was a message from a split-off persona to the host persona.

I say Patsy was the long time user/abuser. The chronic vaginal penetration was a compulsive act that I call autoerotic stimulation by proxy. That "sin" was outed by one persona factor; the morality judge, by leaving a message for the host to find.

The same idea goes for the open Bible to Psalm 35.

The ransom note is the same thing; an inside job: communication going on between split-off persona factors.