Who screamed?

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Which conclusion? I think I was just speculating on something that I didn't think we would ever know the answer to -- namely what was going through someone's mind.

True, that.

If you are saying they were specifically chosen because of their size -- for what purpose?

Yes, whatever blood was present was at least wiped away. I suspect (but not 100% certain) she may also have been cleaned internally with water because of what is stated in the AR. If the sexual assault was staged, or if (as some have speculated) it was done to hide the chronic injuries (which it didn’t) there would be no reason to clean up the blood. The blood that was found in her panties (as I understand) was only two very small droplets. There are probably at least several possibilities of how those droplets came to be there.


I don’t agree that this was the case, but I suppose that is a possibility. But then if you follow that scenario out, you would almost have to say she was then deliberately strangled with the cord to kill her. I just don’t believe that’s the way it happened. In fact, I don’t think the parents even knew about the head injury.

you would almost have to say she was then deliberately strangled with the cord to kill her.

Correct. However, do you feel it may have been a game for BR and JonBenet accidentally strangled herself when the severe head bash occurred?

If you are saying they were specifically chosen because of their size -- for what purpose?

As mentioned, perhaps the 12s were used to make LE scratch their heads and wonder about a large size pair of undies being on a size 6 child. I have yet to find anyone who did not find the size 12s as peculiar. So surely whomever pulled those onto her, knew they were awkward.

The blood that was found in her panties (as I understand) was only two very small droplets. There are probably at least several possibilities of how those droplets came to be there.

There were also flecks of blood around her perineum.
There are probably at least several possibilities of how those droplets came to be there.

There are blood droplets on the pink nightgown that's on the blanket in the hellhole.
There are small blood droplets on the pillow lying at the end of her bed.
There are two drops of it inside her size 12s.

Blood was pooling outside of her right ear but I don't think it dripped onto the panties.

You are right, otg. There was not much blood evidence found. Since it was an intruder they hoped to pin this crime on then why wipe away the
bloody brutality of her killer?

It would seem the only reason to wipe the child's private area and thighs was to leave incriminating fibers.

she may also have been cleaned internally with water because of what is stated in the AR.

You may be referencing the "watery fluid". Where and/or when could a possible douching have taken place among all of the other forms of abuse? Downstairs in the basement? There is no bathtub. The toilet is broken. After the final sexual assault? Was she removing BR's presence there? Or her own? Were resultant douching fluids later discovered on wet clothing or carpet?

All the douching, changing and washing sheets and clothing, waking up at midnight, the odor, smearing medication on her bottom, plastic mattress cover, vaginitis, purchasing pull-ups were more trouble to maintain than simply taking the quality time to train these children about what is generally acceptable behavior for 6 & 9 year old children.

JonBenet's sheets smelled of urine. She had a box of candy on the floor of her room that was smeared with feces. How could a non-abusive parent enter that precious child's bedroom and not know it smelled like the guttah?
 
Correct. However, do you feel it may have been a game for BR and JonBenet accidentally strangled herself when the severe head bash occurred?
I do not believe anyone put the cord around her neck with the intent of harm to her. I believe it was placed there as a “faux restraint”. If you would want to go so far as to call it a “game”, that’s fine, but I don’t see it as a “game” in the sense that Dr. Wecht implies where it was used to tighten and loosen to heighten sexual pleasure. That’s pure bunk. The knot does not allow easy tightening and loosening. If a person wanted to accomplish that, there would be no knot at all -- simply wrapping the cord once around the neck and pulling the ends would work much better for that purpose.


As mentioned, perhaps the 12s were used to make LE scratch their heads and wonder about a large size pair of undies being on a size 6 child. I have yet to find anyone who did not find the size 12s as peculiar. So surely whomever pulled those onto her, knew they were awkward.
I don’t think we’ll ever know the answer to that. I’m open to any speculation as the reason, and there is plenty of it all over the forums.


There were also flecks of blood around her perineum.
From the AR:
On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.
There are blood droplets on the pink nightgown that's on the blanket in the hellhole.
There are small blood droplets on the pillow lying at the end of her bed.
There are two drops of it inside her size 12s.
The only “drops” or “droplets” of blood I am aware of are the ones that are reported to have been in the crotch of her panties. I don’t recall where it was reported, but I seem to remember hearing/reading that Meyer could not “match” the blood pattern in the panties with the actual injuries. But pay attention to what he does note in the AR, because it is not what most people visualize when they think of “droplets” of blood:
The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.
Notice he doesn’t mention the word “blood”, and he doesn’t use the word “droplets”. So you have to ask yourself, “why not?” And this goes to what was done in the staging of her body (IMO). In the process of cleaning her body of vaginal blood, she was wiped down. Evidence of that "wiping" is in the fiber evidence we have heard about and the smearing of blood on her legs. Small amounts of blood remained within the wrinkles and creases of her genitalia (as described more graphically in the earlier AR quote above). With the wet panties pressed against her crotch by the tight longjohns, most likely some of the small amounts of remaining blood was soaked up, mixed and diluted with the urine, and dispersed within the adjacent area of her panties. Meyer doesn’t go into that kind of detail explaining what he suspects it is, so he refers to it instead as “red areas of staining”. As we now know, those areas were tested, confirmed to be her blood by DNA, and mixed with unknown partial DNA from someone else. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the unknown partial DNA was found at that time intermixed with her own DNA -- not later when the tDNA was processed. But that is how (IMO) the blood got there and mixed with whatever the other DNA material was that was already in the Bloomies.

As to the blood on her pillow, all we have about it is that Patsy was questioned about whether or not JonBenet had nosebleeds when the interviewers were trying to establish a possible cause for what they referred to as “staining” on her pillow (see with [ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945"]Patsy’s 1998 interview[/ame] with BPD).

I’m not sure about the kind of blood stain (amount, size, shape) that was found on her nightgown, but we know from the DNA results simply that it was established as belonging to JonBenet. It was later when the tDNA was developed that we learned about Patsy's and BR's tDNA being on it, but that could have an innocent explanation.


Blood was pooling outside of her right ear but I don't think it dripped onto the panties.
There was no blood in her ear. Again, from the AR:
The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood.
You are right, otg. There was not much blood evidence found. Since it was an intruder they hoped to pin this crime on then why wipe away the bloody brutality of her killer?
Exactly. Why (if that was their purpose in doing it)? I won’t repeat my answer unless it’s not obvious to you.


It would seem the only reason to wipe the child's private area and thighs was to leave incriminating fibers.
I would have to disagree with that conclusion. But again, I would be repeating what I’ve already said (too many times already).


You may be referencing the "watery fluid". Where and/or when could a possible douching have taken place among all of the other forms of abuse? Downstairs in the basement? There is no bathtub. The toilet is broken. After the final sexual assault? Was she removing BR's presence there? Or her own? Were resultant douching fluids later discovered on wet clothing or carpet?
There was a shower in the basement, a lavatory, and a commode. The unflushed commode was disassembled and the “contents” were analyzed (but not DNA tested). We don’t know the results of whatever testing was done. Investigators should have also tested all drains for blood (not just in the basement), but I don’t know that they did.



All the douching, changing and washing sheets and clothing, waking up at midnight, the odor, smearing medication on her bottom, plastic mattress cover, vaginitis, purchasing pull-ups were more trouble to maintain than simply taking the quality time to train these children about what is generally acceptable behavior for 6 & 9 year old children.
Yeah, right. Needless to say, other people don’t act like the Ramseys. And it might very well have not been simply a lack of training that was the cause of it all.



JonBenet's sheets smelled of urine. She had a box of candy on the floor of her room that was smeared with feces. How could a non-abusive parent enter that precious child's bedroom and not know it smelled like the guttah?
To anyone who walked into the Ramsey hellhole, it must have been noticeable unless (as I’ve speculated before) there were air fresheners everywhere, especially on the first floor. The door going to the basement was usually closed, but the second floor must have reeked. But to the regular inhabitants, it probably wasn’t even noticed since it was the norm. There are many terms for the phenomenon of not noticing a constant smell (sensory adaptation, olfactory fatigue, olfactory adaptation, neural adaptation, habituation, smell saturation) and the cause can be searched if you care to understand it. There is a simple explanation of why our sense of smell is more apt to be affected by this than our other senses here, as well as an explanation about how a rabbit is able to avoid being affected by it.
 
Did Jon Benet have seizes after her head injury? Could that be why her room smelled ? Her bowels and bladder could have released making her room smell.. Didn't they have a house keeper? Could the bed wetting be a cover story?

http://pmr.medicine.pitt.edu/content/Rehabilomics/pdf/postTraumaticStress.pdf

There is no way to tell whether JB had a seizure after her head bash. It is certainly possible after an injury like that. The streak of vomit/mucus seen on her cheek may represent the kind of "foaming" that occurs during a seizure. This material seeped from her mouth after she was placed on her back in the wine cellar and her head drooped to the right.
I doubt the bedwetting was a cover story. Cover for what? Lots of kids wet the bed, even at that age. What the red flag with JB really was - is that she resumed wetting and soiling her pants while AWAKE, and after she had been fully potty trained for 3 years.
Also- the bowel and bladder do not always empty during a seizure. In JB's case, her bowel did not empty at primary flaccidity (first moment of death) because the feces was higher up in her excretory system. It is noted in the autopsy as the "soft, green fecal material" in her intestine. The bladder however, does usually empty at death, even if the person had recently urinated because healthy kidneys are always working and filtering water and waste from the blood. The bladder always has some urine in it.
 
I do not believe anyone put the cord around her neck with the intent of harm to her. I believe it was placed there as a “faux restraint”. If you would want to go so far as to call it a “game”, that’s fine, but I don’t see it as a “game” in the sense that Dr. Wecht implies where it was used to tighten and loosen to heighten sexual pleasure. That’s pure bunk. The knot does not allow easy tightening and loosening. If a person wanted to accomplish that, there would be no knot at all -- simply wrapping the cord once around the neck and pulling the ends would work much better for that purpose.


I don’t think we’ll ever know the answer to that. I’m open to any speculation as the reason, and there is plenty of it all over the forums.


From the AR:
On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.
The only “drops” or “droplets” of blood I am aware of are the ones that are reported to have been in the crotch of her panties. I don’t recall where it was reported, but I seem to remember hearing/reading that Meyer could not “match” the blood pattern in the panties with the actual injuries. But pay attention to what he does note in the AR, because it is not what most people visualize when they think of “droplets” of blood:
The underwear is urine stained and in the inner aspect of the crotch are several red areas of staining measuring up to 0.5 inch maximum dimension.
Notice he doesn’t mention the word “blood”, and he doesn’t use the word “droplets”. So you have to ask yourself, “why not?” And this goes to what was done in the staging of her body (IMO). In the process of cleaning her body of vaginal blood, she was wiped down. Evidence of that "wiping" is in the fiber evidence we have heard about and the smearing of blood on her legs. Small amounts of blood remained within the wrinkles and creases of her genitalia (as described more graphically in the earlier AR quote above). With the wet panties pressed against her crotch by the tight longjohns, most likely some of the small amounts of remaining blood was soaked up, mixed and diluted with the urine, and dispersed within the adjacent area of her panties. Meyer doesn’t go into that kind of detail explaining what he suspects it is, so he refers to it instead as “red areas of staining”. As we now know, those areas were tested, confirmed to be her blood by DNA, and mixed with unknown partial DNA from someone else. Also, if I’m not mistaken, the unknown partial DNA was found at that time intermixed with her own DNA -- not later when the tDNA was processed. But that is how (IMO) the blood got there and mixed with whatever the other DNA material was that was already in the Bloomies.

As to the blood on her pillow, all we have about it is that Patsy was questioned about whether or not JonBenet had nosebleeds when the interviewers were trying to establish a possible cause for what they referred to as “staining” on her pillow (see with Patsy’s 1998 interview with BPD).

I’m not sure about the kind of blood stain (amount, size, shape) that was found on her nightgown, but we know from the DNA results simply that it was established as belonging to JonBenet. It was later when the tDNA was developed that we learned about Patsy's and BR's tDNA being on it, but that could have an innocent explanation.


There was no blood in her ear. Again, from the AR:
The external auditory canals are patent and free of blood.
Exactly. Why (if that was their purpose in doing it)? I won’t repeat my answer unless it’s not obvious to you.


I would have to disagree with that conclusion. But again, I would be repeating what I’ve already said (too many times already).


There was a shower in the basement, a lavatory, and a commode. The unflushed commode was disassembled and the “contents” were analyzed (but not DNA tested). We don’t know the results of whatever testing was done. Investigators should have also tested all drains for blood (not just in the basement), but I don’t know that they did.



Yeah, right. Needless to say, other people don’t act like the Ramseys. And it might very well have not been simply a lack of training that was the cause of it all.



To anyone who walked into the Ramsey hellhole, it must have been noticeable unless (as I’ve speculated before) there were air fresheners everywhere, especially on the first floor. The door going to the basement was usually closed, but the second floor must have reeked. But to the regular inhabitants, it probably wasn’t even noticed since it was the norm. There are many terms for the phenomenon of not noticing a constant smell (sensory adaptation, olfactory fatigue, olfactory adaptation, neural adaptation, habituation, smell saturation) and the cause can be searched if you care to understand it. There is a simple explanation of why our sense of smell is more apt to be affected by this than our other senses here, as well as an explanation about how a rabbit is able to avoid being affected by it.

I don’t see it as a “game” in the sense that Dr. Wecht implies where it was used to tighten and loosen to heighten sexual pleasure

Nor do I.

The knot does not allow easy tightening and loosening.

The purpose of using a slipknot is so it will slip or slide along the cord. I will investigate why this particular slipknot may have been different.

There was no blood in her ear.

Well, the AR does not say it is there so there must be an altered picture of the blood in the ear on FFJ. Guess I must be more careful in viewing available pictures and only trust the crime photos marked by LE.

The info imparted about odors is appreciated. Now, I know how to avoid odor fatigue. It is no wonder JBR kept a runny nose and congestion. The malodorous home should have been burned.

But again, I would be repeating what I’ve already said (too many times already).

My apologies, otg. I shall not ask any more from you. Thank you for sharing your opinions and knowledge.
 
Nor do I.
(I'm very glad we agree on that one.)


The purpose of using a slipknot is so it will slip or slide along the cord. I will investigate why this particular slipknot may have been different.
If the slipknot is tied onto itself (looped), when the free end is pulled with one hand, it will tighten because the opposite force is from the victim. But then to loosen it, the person has to use both hands to pull the knot itself along the cord. (I hope I'm saying this so it makes sense.) There is nothing peculiar about this knot that makes it different from other slipknots -- just how it would be used if it was being used as this perverted "game" that Dr. Wecht described.



Well, the AR does not say it is there so there must be an altered picture of the blood in the ear on FFJ. Guess I must be more careful in viewing available pictures and only trust the crime photos marked by LE.
:dunno:


The info imparted about odors is appreciated. Now, I know how to avoid odor fatigue. It is no wonder JBR kept a runny nose and congestion. The malodorous home should have been burned.
:thumb:


My apologies, otg. I shall not ask any more from you. Thank you for sharing your opinions and knowledge.
Anytime, DeDee. No need to apologize. We're all here because we want to see a little justice -- regardless of what we think that justice might look like, and even when some of us become disillusioned because of its scarcity.
 
Hi all, longtime reader but now a registered newb. *waves*

I've been reading over PR interview with BPD from 1998 tonight and recently came across this tidbit that I found quite interesting in regards to the possibility of JBR's screaming that night. PR describing her PTSD symptoms:

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this

6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in

7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress

8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what

9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and

11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.

12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include

13 anything like nightmares?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.

15 TOM HANEY: About?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of

17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our

18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet

19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,

20 searching, searching, searching trying to find

21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


I understand flashbacks of seeing JBR on the floor in the living room, but how can she have a flashback of JBR screaming?
 
Hi all, longtime reader but now a registered newb. *waves*

I've been reading over PR interview with BPD from 1998 tonight and recently came across this tidbit that I found quite interesting in regards to the possibility of JBR's screaming that night. PR describing her PTSD symptoms:

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this

6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in

7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress

8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what

9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and

11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.

12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include

13 anything like nightmares?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.

15 TOM HANEY: About?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of

17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our

18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet

19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,

20 searching, searching, searching trying to find

21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


I understand flashbacks of seeing JBR on the floor in the living room, but how can she have a flashback of JBR screaming?

The only way you can have a "flashback" of something is if you previously lived it. If she had a "flashback" of JB screaming, it is because she herself heard the scream. While we are on that topic, Patsy also slipped up when she said in an interview that she "heard John screaming as he came up from the basement". Of course, police dropped the ball on those two comments. Because supposedly JR did not "find" his daughter until 1 pm the following day, so it is curious as to what he was screaming about that night. But of course we know....
Since the release of the GJ indictments I have a clearer picture of the events of the night. Patsy likely heard JB scream during the molestation. This brought both parents running, and the awful discovery caused JR to scream as he came up after investigating the scream.
This is why the GJ indictments describe their failure to prevent her death and failure to protect her from abuse leading to her death. The GJ seemed to realize that neither parent killed her, but lied to protect the person who did.
 
I thought they never acknowledged hearing a scream at all...but here she's saying she has flashbacks of it?? They couldn't get their stories straight if they tried. And they didn't seem to try very hard.
 
Exactly, you have to actually witness/experience a traumatic incident in order to have a flashback of it. Such a revealing statement and yet another missed opportunity. Like you say, DeeDee249, police definitely dropped the ball here.

This admission by mommy dearest, leads me to believe that not only didsomeone scream that night, but also that that someone was JB. :-/
 
Mrs. Ramsey certainly heard JonBenet "scream" in the 6 years she'd had with her daughter. A child crying, screaming, begging to be rescued, but no one hears; this is a mother's worst nightmare.
 
Hi all, longtime reader but now a registered newb. *waves*

I've been reading over PR interview with BPD from 1998 tonight and recently came across this tidbit that I found quite interesting in regards to the possibility of JBR's screaming that night. PR describing her PTSD symptoms:

5 TOM HANEY: Okay. One other thing, this

6 morning you mentioned that the doctors, Dr. Brown in

7 Atlanta, had diagnosed this post traumatic stress

8 disorder, and I wondered what the symptoms, what

9 symptoms you experience as a result of that.

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, just very sad and

11 very -- crying a lot, fatigue easily.

12 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do your symptoms include

13 anything like nightmares?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: I had those.

15 TOM HANEY: About?

16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of

17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our

18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet

19 scream. I have nightmares where I am, you know,

20 searching, searching, searching trying to find

21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.


I understand flashbacks of seeing JBR on the floor in the living room, but how can she have a flashback of JBR screaming?
Good catch, Marla. I don't remember reading where anyone else noticed that particular slip. But then, it's been such a long time...:waiting:

And welcome to WS, Marla.
 
Mrs. Ramsey certainly heard JonBenet "scream" in the 6 years she'd had with her daughter.

She would not have PTSD due to any other scream and she wouldn't have "flashbacks" of prior screams. It is also quite obvious, to me anyway, which scream in particular she is referring to.

JMO though. I'm not a mental health expert. I just have more than my fair share of experience with PTSD for myself and for those close to me.
 
Good catch, Marla. I don't remember reading where anyone else noticed that particular slip. But then, it's been such a long time...:waiting:

And welcome to WS, Marla.

That is a great catch. Indeed, how does one have a "flashback" to something they supposedly had no knowledge of?
 
What if the scream came from JBR upon Patsy walking in on the molestation and it ended with a head bash by JR/BR?
 
And welcome to WS, Marla.

Thanks, otg :smile:

I originally never considered the neighbors statement about hearing a scream to be either true or false, as it had fluctuated too much to know either way. But I think PR's slip in that interview might be the one only truthful thing she's ever said.

I don't doubt she suffered flashbacks of JB screaming, as I'm sure that's what prompted the blow to the head... by PR.
 
(rsbm)
16 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh, I have flashbacks of

17 seeing my daughter lying down on the floor in our

18 living room, and I have flashbacks of hearing JonBenet

19 scream.
I have nightmares where I am, you know,

20 searching, searching, searching trying to find

21 somebody, and trying to find who did this.

I understand flashbacks of seeing JBR on the floor in the living room, but how can she have a flashback of JBR screaming?
:bump: Bump (for recent discussions).
 

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