Who will get Zahra's remains?

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I believe KB loved Zahra fiercely. Perhaps too fiercely. That is MOO, based off what little I have heard from both EB and KB at other locations. That is MOO. I could very well be wrong. I just hope, and I know it is not likely, but hope remains, that these two women, one who gave birth to Zahra, one who loved Zahra as if she had, can find some sort of middle ground and not make this some big deal battle.
 
You know tlcox, this raises one complicated issue that we in Australia have suffered great heartache over in our short existence since European colonisation. I need to explain this, so please bear with the apparent off-topic content, as it is entirely in context overall.

Our indigenous Aboriginal people were an absolute fascination to the European settlers of the penal colony known as the Antipodes (Australia). They sent skeletons and sometimes parts of skeletons back to England and European museums and private collections as curios, and for study. Consider the research and theories of Charles Darwin at that time for context! There was also the abhorrent practice of beheading the "savages" in hunts during warfare between the Aborigines and the European settlers (I use the term "savages" to convey to you the sentiment of these settlers, as this is the term they used ... sometimes if an Aboriginal demonstrated an aptitude for culture and etiquette they were called the "noble savage"! It was the British way to dehumanise the indigenous people). So heads were also sent back to Europe while the bodies were buried on Australian land. I am sure you get the idea of where I am going with this.

So in Australia we have a strong sense of land, which I think is a wonderful value that we've learned from our Aboriginal brothers and sisters. The land is 'sacred' or 'special'. Many white Australians are passionate about the specific location for their burial place, as are the Aboriginal people (though for spiritual and ancestral reasons in their case). Often it is a matter of ashes being scattered in secret bush or ocean locations, etc, as this allows freedom outside of a cemetery.

But partial burial is another thing. If Zahra's remains are returned to Australia for burial/scattering then this is only part of her body. This would mean part is in the USA in unknown locations and part is in Australia. That is something that upset the Aboriginal people for centuries, and we as a nation agreed that the parts of bodies should be together.

Just a spanner in the works I realise. I hope she is returned to Australia, which I consider to be Zahra's home. But I simultaneously wonder about the division of her remains. It is an uncomfortable issue given the circumstances.

I appreciate your posting this. As an American Indian, it has been a concern of mine that Zahra may not be found in total and not truly be at Peace. It hurts me that those who were supposed to protect her disrespected her so terribly in life and in death.

Here in the US we have NAGPRA, Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, do you have something similar in Australia? [I'm not sure about the rule of posting a link about it but if you google NAGPRA you'll see the definition.]
 
I appreciate your posting this. As an American Indian, it has been a concern of mine that Zahra may not be found in total and not truly be at Peace. It hurts me that those who were supposed to protect her disrespected her so terribly in life and in death.

Here in the US we have NAGPRA, Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, do you have something similar in Australia? [I'm not sure about the rule of posting a link about it but if you google NAGPRA you'll see the definition.]

Respectfully said :)

Not sure if this will come out right but hopefully it will

I totally understand where both of you are coming from with respect to beliefs and this is the only way i have been able to accept this in my mind so bear with me whether you agree or not.

Zahra Baker was a little girl that has in her very short life span reached the hearts of people around the world, regardless of age, religion, race etc

Her smile is universal, has no boundaries, throughout all the adversity she faced. She has in her own way helped many of us to appreciate our families more, to make sure we do give them that extra hug, we do take the time to listen to them more, and list can go on and on

In the end though what this little girl has shown or taught any of us goes beyond the physical.

In my heart i can still see her smile and that will live on with me forever no matter where she is.

If she has taught so many of us all of that, the biological people in her life had better be on notice and work out a fitting way to resolve whatever their personal issues are and allow her to RIP
 
I appreciate your posting this. As an American Indian, it has been a concern of mine that Zahra may not be found in total and not truly be at Peace. It hurts me that those who were supposed to protect her disrespected her so terribly in life and in death.

Here in the US we have NAGPRA, Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, do you have something similar in Australia? [I'm not sure about the rule of posting a link about it but if you google NAGPRA you'll see the definition.]
Thank you Jacie Estes, it's a good question. I've no idea if such a group exists so will contact a friend in Aboriginal affairs and find out. However I'm not aware Zahra's family has any Aboriginal blood – certainly hasn't been mentioned in Australian media coverage (which has been extensive), so it's unlikely.

I think "Zahra" is well and truly independent of her body now, which in time will disintegrate and return to the earth (literally). The most important purpose it serves now is to tell the story of her life and death to the investigators. It seems almost insensitive to Zahra to bring only part of her back to Australia (if only they could locate all her remains!); though at the same time this would likely be a comfort to her family and friends back in Australia ... particularly if they're Roman Catholic (again I'm not sure). People's spiritual perspectives play a very important role in how they deal with the dead. Ultimately it's up to the family – whatever their needs and desires – these should be respected and supported.

I wouldn't normally be concerned about this sort of thing, except in this case the separation of pieces of her body, and the fact pieces appear to be missing, really has disturbed me. I'm not sure why it has affected me so much.
 
O/T - I'm Jewish, and I always found it interesting how Natives/First Nations and Jews, all tribal people with a strong connection to sacred lands and a general lack of body/mind/spirit paradox, have very similar beliefs in terms of the intactness of remains after death.
 
I believe KB loved Zahra fiercely. Perhaps too fiercely. That is MOO, based off what little I have heard from both EB and KB at other locations. That is MOO. I could very well be wrong. I just hope, and I know it is not likely, but hope remains, that these two women, one who gave birth to Zahra, one who loved Zahra as if she had, can find some sort of middle ground and not make this some big deal battle.

In the comments I've read by ED on the Hinkymeter she spoke in very kind terms about how well Zahra was cared for in Australia - which I interpret to mean by her grandmother. So I feel there's opportunity for an open dialog for resolution once the dust settles. For KB the immediate concern is AB, and I understand why her focus is there. In time, I think she'll be able to deal with more than this single focus.

It think Zahra was a bit of a peacekeeper. Hopefully she'll reunite her mother and grandmother who are undoubtedly suffering victims in this miserable series of events.
 
I think they may, I pray they can. But I firmly believe they are the only two that matter. KB may have been misled in her thinking. ED never had a chance.
 
O/T - I'm Jewish, and I always found it interesting how Natives/First Nations and Jews, all tribal people with a strong connection to sacred lands and a general lack of body/mind/spirit paradox, have very similar beliefs in terms of the intactness of remains after death.

The fact that Zahra's remains have not been recovered completely is, to me, because those that dismembered her will not tell LE where the remains were taken. That is disrespectful, IMHO.

The story of what happened to Annie Mae Pictou Aquash's remains after her murder, to me, are similar. There is a book 'Who Would Unbraid Her Hair' by Antoinette Nora Claypoole© that speaks to the removal of Annie Mae's hands.
 
In the comments I've read by ED on the Hinkymeter she spoke in very kind terms about how well Zahra was cared for in Australia - which I interpret to mean by her grandmother. So I feel there's opportunity for an open dialog for resolution once the dust settles. For KB the immediate concern is AB, and I understand why her focus is there. In time, I think she'll be able to deal with more than this single focus.

It think Zahra was a bit of a peacekeeper. Hopefully she'll reunite her mother and grandmother who are undoubtedly suffering victims in this miserable series of events.

Flakes, I would like to think you are right but I believe KB was part of the problem in keeping Zahra and ED apart. It really bothers me, as still a pretty new gma - I have a love for DGBaby that is different from anything I've ever known. Part of the joy in this relationship is seeing her parents care for and love her too, something I hope never changes.

IMO it is selfish and wrong for a gparent to do less than everything to nurture the parent - child bond in whatever way possible. We know this did not happen - makes me very sad for young ED who should have been allowed an active roll in raising Zahra - with AB's & KB's help.
 
Flakes, I would like to think you are right but I believe KB was part of the problem in keeping Zahra and ED apart. It really bothers me, as still a pretty new gma - I have a love for DGBaby that is different from anything I've ever known. Part of the joy in this relationship is seeing her parents care for and love her too, something I hope never changes.

IMO it is selfish and wrong for a gparent to do less than everything to nurture the parent - child bond in whatever way possible. We know this did not happen - makes me very sad for young ED who should have been allowed an active roll in raising Zahra - with AB's & KB's help.

sorry - I deleted my post because I had my fur in a dander and realized what I wanted to say needed to be kept private as it was personal.
 
hugs free2, we all have our days. you sound like your cooler head prevailed. Just thought you might need a qwik hug.

I haven't heard ED make any comments that are negative towards KB, but I cannot say the same for KB. Of course those comments of KBs were made on another site and were in response to questions about custody and may have been in the heat of the moment. Regardless, it is my staunchest and most sincere hope that these two women who were closest to Zahra and probably loved her most in the world above all of us, reach some sort of private accord with regards to the remains.
 
I'm not entirely surprised by the one-way direction of appreciation displayed between ED and KB. For ED to see Zahra well cared for was clearly a relief, and she shows gratitude for that. And I admire her for that. After all she made the tough decision to leave her child, and undoubtedly wanted the best for Zahra – something she presumably felt she was unable to give while suffering post-natal depression. On the other side, KB would have witnessed and felt things first hand that we will never know – the level of despair that ED suffered, and the implications for baby Zahra. And we can be sure her concerns were primarily with the child. Post-natal depression can cause people's behaviour and demeanour to be quite outside of their normal self. Post-natal depression is never easy, it is heart-breaking, and can be disturbing and brutal (to both the mother and child). How ED's post-natal depression manifested we cannot know, but we do know it was serious enough to leave her child. Ultimately we know KB was there for Zahra and cared for her and I admire her for that.

The toughest part is that mothers can make the journey back from the brink of post-natal depression – and when they do, the people around them need to give them that opportunity to make it back. However I think we need to remember we were not there to see what KB saw; we cannot know the concerns she had. So it's tough for us to stand here and judge either ED or KB as we really don't know (and have no real need to know) what the struggles entailed. I think they both need our compassion and support as we know they both loved Zahra, and they're both victims as they've both lost her. Just my thoughts meant in kindness.

Added: I realise we are all entitled to our own interpretations and opinions. I am not trying to say anyone's theory is wrong. I simply see compassion as a great healer.
 
Im going to put this out there towards alot of the posts.First of all as a christian womanI think Zahras soul is in heaven, but I also dont hink she can be whole in death until all of her remains are are found and together. I dont know why I feel that way I just do.

As for KB I think she is a loving grandmother and mother. I think she is getting the raw end of the deal in all this. She lost her grandaughter and is being chastised for standing by her child. How many of us wouldnt in the back of our heart think our child incapable of such a henous crime? I feel bad for her.

As for ED I personally think she did and does love her child. I do have doubts as to how hard she looked for her. Not that I think it was a lack of loving her child I just think life goes on.

I I think AB loves his daughter. I think he checked out of her care but more from trusting an evil woman than lack of love for his child.

I just hope they can all come to a common ground and give this child peace in her death.If they all put the love they have for this child first I think her soul will be at peace.....JMO
 
I'm not entirely surprised by the one-way direction of appreciation displayed between ED and KB. For ED to see Zahra well cared for was clearly a relief, and she shows gratitude for that. And I admire her for that. After all she made the tough decision to leave her child, and undoubtedly wanted the best for Zahra – something she presumably felt she was unable to give while suffering post-natal depression. On the other side, KB would have witnessed and felt things first hand that we will never know – the level of despair that ED suffered, and the implications for baby Zahra. And we can be sure her concerns were primarily with the child. Post-natal depression can cause people's behaviour and demeanour to be quite outside of their normal self. Post-natal depression is never easy, it is heart-breaking, and can be disturbing and brutal (to both the mother and child). How ED's post-natal depression manifested we cannot know, but we do know it was serious enough to leave her child. Ultimately we know KB was there for Zahra and cared for her and I admire her for that.

The toughest part is that mothers can make the journey back from the brink of post-natal depression – and when they do, the people around them need to give them that opportunity to make it back. However I think we need to remember we were not there to see what KB saw; we cannot know the concerns she had. So it's tough for us to stand here and judge either ED or KB as we really don't know (and have no real need to know) what the struggles entailed. I think they both need our compassion and support as we know they both loved Zahra, and they're both victims as they've both lost her. Just my thoughts meant in kindness.

Added: I realise we are all entitled to our own interpretations and opinions. I am not trying to say anyone's theory is wrong. I simply see compassion as a great healer.

You stated that very well and said some of what I feel. Some mothers don't come back from post-natel depression easily. And some mothers don't come back for a long time (if ever). During this time the child must be cared for, loved and protected. And while that child is having his/her needs met by another caregiver we need to remember that caregiver is falling in love with that child. You shouldn't take a child into your home unless you can take them into your heart as well.

I am raising a grandchild that both of her parents made the decision to sign over custody of her to us voluntarily. Her parents knew that she was better suited to be with us and so we joined the 2.5 million grandparents raising grandchildren (2007).

At some point my granddaughter's mother/father may get their lives in order but that doesn't mean that it would be best for them to re-enter her life. We really don't know the entire story of Zahra's birth or her childhood.

Thank you for your post. I thought it was well written and very thoughtful.
 
The fact that Zahra's remains have not been recovered completely is, to me, because those that dismembered her will not tell LE where the remains were taken. That is disrespectful, IMHO.

The story of what happened to Annie Mae Pictou Aquash's remains after her murder, to me, are similar. There is a book 'Who Would Unbraid Her Hair' by Antoinette Nora Claypoole© that speaks to the removal of Annie Mae's hands.

Annie Mae's case is an excellent example. People leave people dead for many reasons - but leaving someone in pieces shows utter disdain. Killing Annie Mae wasn't enough - they had to desecrate her to punish her for daring to speak out. It's a last ditch effort to assert power over someone you hate.

I believe Zahra will be repatriated to Australia, and I believe that is the right thing to do. But I have my doubts she will ever be recovered entirely. In any case, her memory will stay in North Carolina, no matter what happens to her remains or where her grave ends up.
 
sorry - I deleted my post because I had my fur in a dander and realized what I wanted to say needed to be kept private as it was personal.

I'm very sorry my post caused you pain, I know that there are many reasons for parents not to be in a child's life and often the best thing anyone can do is protect the child from those parents. Giving the child a permanent, stable, loving home is the most important thing.

I should have qualified my remark, I have heard nothing in this case to believe that ED was negligent or abusive of Zahra. I read her comments (on another site) and found her to be quite believable in her stance that she never meant for Zahra to be taken out of her life - only that she felt (at the time) that Zahra would be better off in AB's care, while she recovered.
 
WARNING GRAPHIC


I am getting the impression that often when LE states they have found a body we tend to assume it is all of it, especially one that has been exposed for any length of time

The reality though, is often most that have been exposed, even if there was no dismemberment have parts taken by animals etc., and the entire body is not actually found

Thus, for my own sanity i have had to find a balance between the forensic/emotional/belief part
 
http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/09/19/267661_news.html

'Family distress over Zahra's final burial'

-----snipped-------
THE young uncle of murdered Giru schoolgirl Zahra Baker has spoken out about the family's anguish after learning the biological mother he claims Zahra barely knew has applied for control of her remains.

Now THIS p*sses me off. No surprise to me that they want to keep Zahra from Emily, even in death. It speaks VOLUMES to the whole sordid nightmare that was Zahra's life at the end.

Hey BAKERS! LET EMILY PUT HER DAUGHTER TO REST!!!! YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE TO CARE FOR ZAHRA AND YOU ALL BLEW IT!! now she has to be put to rest in incomplete pieces.

enough is enough already.....
 
YES, I believe Emily should get the remains. Adam did not take care of his daughter and see that she was okay. He is at least guilty of that.
 
I am of the opinion that Zahra's remains should be returned home by the Government of Australia and that her funeral should be a State one. This means that there's no individual charged with the responsibilities or rights to her remains, and that a decent and fitting memorial and funeral should be provided that perhaps her family might not be able to afford. Also it would provide for a large number of the extended community to attend, as many have mourned her loss so terribly.
 
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