"Who would leave children that young alone?"

[Clutchbag]

So that means you think David Payne was telling the truth that he saw Madeleine that evening, and Jane tanner was telling the truth when she said she saw a man carrying a child.

Maybe but not sure, why would anyone believe a bunch of friends who refused to go back when the police wanted them to to do a reconstruction and they all said NO, whul all the time saying they would do anything at all to help, well, in fact, they ruined and stopped the investigation, that is why the mccanns were never cleared and are still suspects to the portuguese authorities, they were forced to close the case

 

[Clutchbag]

Gerry is a cardiologist at a minor hospital, hardly top of his game in all of Europe. He was unknown by the establishment.

Children to die accidently, normal people do not vilify the patents so Gerry's career would not have been harmed by that. Even if she was drugged it would be easier to say she got hold of it herself than report her missing. Think of this, Gerry has. Been an aguido, been accused of all sorts by early media reports and fanatics online, had fanatics turn up at his workplace and complain to GMC and he admitted leaving his child whilst at dinner. Yet his career has not been harmed, so do we really think losing a child in an accident would harm in. Tanner was not particularly close to the McCann's either, she was a friend of a friend more than anything. And no evidence has come tho light to suggest Payne lied either.
And the McCann's had only been on a group holiday once before for a wedding, and what is wrong with going on holiday with friends, its very common for middle class people.

I do not believe the whole group covered anything up...you are wrong though about Gerry, if his kid was found dead when being left alone, when he and his wife went out leaving three babies alone, for at least half hr segments, and where they could not see or hear them that WOULD have major repercussions on both their careers, as they would have been deemed negligent IN THIS COUNTRY even if not in Portugal, the Mccanns KNEW this.....have u heard of negligent manslaughter or homicide?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Gerry is a cardiologist at a minor hospital, hardly top of his game in all of Europe. He was unknown by the establishment.
.

For once and for all, Dr Gerald McCann is a prominent and highly respected heart specialist with memberships of the most prestigious medical groups in the UK, so please stop insisting otherwise!

He is currently a board member of the British Society of Cardiovascular Resonance and is also a Faculty Member of the British Cardiovascular Society, lecturing at the Royal College of Physicians, London.

Gerry McCann is a Consultant Cardiologist and Honorary Senior Lecturer at University Hospitals of Leicester having been appointed in 2005. He is currently undertaking a full-time research fellowship funded by the National Institute of Health Research. Gerry is a graduate of the University of Glasgow where he also undertook postgraduate training and doctoral research in cardiopulmonary exercise testing. Cardiology training included periods in Glasgow, New Zealand and Leicester before completing a fellowship in Cardiac MRI (CMR) at the VU Medical Center in Amsterdam under the supervision of Prof. van Rossum. The CMR service at Leicester is run in conjunction with 5 radiologists and more than 2000 scans are performed per annum. Dr McCann directs a very active research programme with funding from the British Heart Foundation, MRC and the National Institute of Health Research with work focusing on acute MI, stable chest pain and aortic stenosis.

http://www.bscmr.org/biographies.html

http://www.bcs.com/documents/A6E_BCS_Career_in_Cardiology_eflyer.pdf.[/QUOTE]

Children to die accidently,.

Absolutely they do, especially when left alone to cry and wander in strange hotel rooms with no carers.

normal people do not vilify the patents so Gerry's career would not have been harmed by that. Even if she was drugged it would be easier to say she got hold of it herself than report her missing. .

It's not about "normal people" vilifying anyone.

It's about a very real fear of losing one's reputation and with it, one's income, self esteem, and position at the top of the Establishment.

Think of this, Gerry has. Been an aguido, been accused of all sorts by early media reports and fanatics online, had fanatics turn up at his workplace and complain to GMC and he admitted leaving his child whilst at dinner. Yet his career has not been harmed, so do we really think losing a child in an accident would harm in..

Hindsight is 20.20. Neither you nor I could have predicted this saga, nor how it has turned out. McCann didn't know for sure he would lose his prestige if caught neglecting his kids, so maybe he did his best to make sure no one found out.

Tanner was not particularly close to the McCann's either, she was a friend of a friend more than anything..

From the mouth of Tanner -

Kate and Gerry again we’d socialise with them, I didn’t know them as well as the others but I mean it was a very comfortable group, so.”

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id222.html

Sounds very friendly to me.

And no evidence has come tho light to suggest Payne lied either. .

Yes, it has. The missing 30 minutes with Kate and the children has never been explained.

And the McCann's had only been on a group holiday once before for a wedding,.

Untrue. They had been several times in different combinations.

4078 “Okay. So before we go on to talking about your holiday in Praia Da Luz can you just give me a bit of background information about how you came to be going on holiday with that group?”
Reply “Yeah err well we’re very good friends with David and Fiona, and Matt and Rachael, err and it was really down to Fiona that decided that, first of all decided to go on holiday. We’d been on holiday with those two couples before...Err so yeah so David, so we said we decided oh yeah we’ll go and it’ll be nice to see everybody, and we know Kate and Gerry, we’d sort of socialised with them but not as well probably as the other, as the other two couples....Err but they’d been on holiday with David and Fiona before and so, and they’ve got children the same age as well, you know obviously Madeleine’s the same age as Ella, so a bit of a nice group.”
4078 “So you knew them all but you hadn’t all been on holiday as a group before?”
Reply “No, we’ve been with Matt and Rachael and David and Fiona. And David and Fiona had been with Kate and Gerry but we hadn’t been, not the eight, or the nine of us including Fi’s mum, we hadn’t been on holiday before.”
4078 “Okay.”
Reply “We were actually supposed to go on holiday when Kate and Gerry and David and Fiona went on holiday together, we were supposed to be going, but then after we’d booked the holiday I realised I was going to be giving birth around the time of the holiday so we couldn’t go anymore.”
4078 “Right.”
Reply “So, but we had planned before.”
4078 “How well, I know you say you’ve been away with them all before and it was the first time you’ve been away with Kate and Gerry, how well did the group of you know each other would you say? And were you very comfortable with each other?”
Reply “Yeah very, very comfortable....as I say we’ve been on holiday, we socialise a lot so yeah we’re very good friends. Kate and Gerry again we’d socialise with them, I didn’t know them as well as the others but I mean it was a very comfortable group, so.”

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id222.html

They were close enough to have planned this group holiday at an earlier time, only to have it fall through. I'd say that's "close".

and what is wrong with going on holiday with friends, its very common for middle class people.

Can you please show me where anyone has said there is something "wrong" with this? :banghead:

I've never known what "middle class" people are anyway, as if people are stacked in layers like a sandwich. Ridiculous generalisation belonging to a different era. People are just people.

 

[Clutchbag]

just a reminder for the apologists Who think it is OK and responsible for parents to leave their three babies toddlers all on their own 100 yards away, whentheycant hear or see them, for at least half hour stretches


Too Young To Be Alone: McCanns Culpable - YouTube

 

[SapphireSteel]

just a reminder for the apologists Who think it is OK and responsible for parents to leave their three babies toddlers all on their own 100 yards away, whentheycant hear or see them, for at least half hour stretches


Too Young To Be Alone: McCanns Culpable - YouTube

Thanks for posting. I'd not seen that before and it reminds you just how tiny Madeleine was.

They keep referring to her as a 4 year old and the twins as 2, however Madeleine was still 3 and her brother and sister only 18 months old.

Once you realise the sheer idiocy of leaving little children like this alone in a strange, unsecured hotel room, there is actually no excuse for their behaviour. None. It IS neglect, SHOCKING neglect, and they should have been charged.

It also struck me that the "last sighting" clip of Madeleine they used was also the one where the next scene is the filmer saying "Cheer Up Gerry" and Gerry snapped back "*advertiser censored** off, I'm not here to enjoy myself". This statement alone causes me to wonder exactly what he was there for.

:sick:

 

[blefuscu]

It annoys me when people say "it's a British thing" when talking about leaving your children to eat or socialise. It's not a British thing, it's a upper middle class thing. And class still exists in Britain, like it or not. I would say most British people take their children to eat with them. Most British people take the children out for the evening on holiday. However some British people choose to eat apart from their children, at home and on holiday, and it's something that, as a British person, I don't understand.

I would never leave my children in a room a distance away from me, where I couldn't see them if they left it, so I could eat and drink alcohol with my friends. When I go on holiday my children eat with me.

A lot of British people complained about double standards at the time of Madeleine's disappearance, and commented that Children's services would have been investigating if child that disappeared had belonged to an unemployed single mother on benefits instead of a middle class couple, who were doctors.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It is, or was, an Upper Class British Thing to neglect your children. It's also the most self serving, cold hearted and ignorant "excuse" I have ever heard.

The wealthy people who neglect their children leave them with nannies, put them in crèches all day (like the McCanns), and send them to boarding school at 7. In other words, they arrange for their child's physical care while neglecting only their emotional well being. They pay others to do the parenting for them, in other words.

The McCanns didn't even bother themselves with the physical care - this in a resort with a baby sitting service. This is Wilful and Intentional Neglect, made even more inexplicable because they could afford alternatives.

They didn't cut short their meal to go to their children, even though they knew they'd been crying and frightened the night before.

That goes beyond boarding schools and far-away nurseries. That's criminal neglect, which has directly led to the death and/or disappearance of their tiny daughter. Let's ask Dave and Gordon and Andy why they haven't been charged, while they are so busy with their "reviews"? :moo:

The McCanns definitely aspired to the Upper Class, and as they're on first name terms with the country's leaders, perhaps they've succeeded.

:sick:

 

[blefuscu]

The emotional neglect has always bothered me in this case. Madeleine was labelled a "wild child", the twins were goodness knows when Kate and Gerry were on TV, or out jogging, or jetting off to see the pope.

I can't imagine one of my three daughters going missing, but if one did I would not let the other two out of my sight, especially just minutes after the supposed discovery. Kate ran back to the Tapas bar leaving the twins unattended again. Not a chance I would do that!

I have never felt much sympathy for Kate and Gerry. They come over cold and detached. The people I feel sympathy for are Madeleine and the twins.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The emotional neglect has always bothered me in this case. Madeleine was labelled a "wild child", the twins were goodness knows when Kate and Gerry were on TV, or out jogging, or jetting off to see the pope.
I can't imagine one of my three daughters going missing, but if one did I would not let the other two out of my sight, especially just minutes after the supposed discovery. Kate ran back to the Tapas bar leaving the twins unattended again. Not a chance I would do that!

I have never felt much sympathy for Kate and Gerry. They come over cold and detached. The people I feel sympathy for are Madeleine and the twins.

It's funny you mentioned that visit.

In the early days, that visit is what ended the illusion for me.

Up until then, I was all "the poor things" alongside everyone else.

I had my own little girl then of course, and as you do you think "what would I do?"

I would never, ever, ever, have been dragged away from my remaining children for any reason on this planet, if I'd already lost one.

No prayer, no pope, no king, not even Jesus himself would cause me to leave their side, or leave where my baby had last been seen.

It was still quite reasonable at that stage to hope Madeleine had indeed been "abducted" - which meant, she could be nearby being brutalised, and needing her mummy when found.

But mummy was off meeting the pope at the time, a bit busy dear...

No, when I saw that, I just knew there was something deeply disturbing going on. Things were not as they seemed.

Kate never summoned attention for her child, only herself.

:cow:

 

[blefuscu]

Exactly. Where was the compassion for Madeleine? Where was the increased care for Sean and Amelie? Nowhere. The McCann adults had a carefully created scene all set up, which was acted out in a way to get them, not Madeleine but them, exposure! I wouldn't be in a church or jetting off to Rome or out jogging when my child was missing. I'd be out there checking under every rock, behind every busy, in every cave until I was convinced she wasn't there.

My parents would be there in a flash. My father, my brother everyone would be out searching. But the McCann's lived their carefully PR spun lives out in front of the media, not a hair out of place, immaculate and pristine!

 

[lonetraveler]

Exactly. Where was the compassion for Madeleine? Where was the increased care for Sean and Amelie? Nowhere. The McCann adults had a carefully created scene all set up, which was acted out in a way to get them, not Madeleine but them, exposure! I wouldn't be in a church or jetting off to Rome or out jogging when my child was missing. I'd be out there checking under every rock, behind every busy, in every cave until I was convinced she wasn't there.

My parents would be there in a flash. My father, my brother everyone would be out searching. But the McCann's lived their carefully PR spun lives out in front of the media, not a hair out of place, immaculate and pristine!

Great post, I totally agree.

 

[lonetraveler]

yea right brit, she panicked, parents panic and protect their kids they dont panic and leave them!
pull the other one!

oh and no, parents dont leave their baby kids in unsecured flats open to every tom dick and harry, theyJUST DONT, full stop

Gerry said oh it felt so safe, then less than an hour later he says to a mate on the phone oh i think paedophiles have taken her?? Did he not worryabout thisBEFORE??? You know a doctor in 2007? Aside from all the media fear,leaving babies and toddlers alone, it never crossed his or HER mind that someone would break into their flat? For whatever reason? Give us a break, LOL

Agree, but someone didn't have to break into the flat right? The door was left unlocked.

 

[Clutchbag]

Thanks for posting. I'd not seen that before and it reminds you just how tiny Madeleine was.

They keep referring to her as a 4 year old and the twins as 2, however Madeleine was still 3 and her brother and sister only 18 months old.

Once you realise the sheer idiocy of leaving little children like this alone in a strange, unsecured hotel room, there is actually no excuse for their behaviour. None. It IS neglect, SHOCKING neglect, and they should have been charged.

It also struck me that the "last sighting" clip of Madeleine they used was also the one where the next scene is the filmer saying "Cheer Up Gerry" and Gerry snapped back "*advertiser censored** off, I'm not here to enjoy myself". This statement alone causes me to wonder exactly what he was there for.

:sick:

The twins were actually 2 and a bit in May 2007, born early Feb 2005, but still, stupefying to leave them to take care of themselves! One of the excuses given for leaving the door open was in case of fire, shocking! Do you know of any 2 year old that could rescue themselves? sad ar ses

 

[Clutchbag]

Agree, but someone didn't have to break into the flat right? The door was left unlocked.

LOL thats semantics

IMO no one did anyway

The Mccanns say Jane Tanner their friend saw a man carryng a child at 9.15 that night, just after mAdeleines father had done a check, and they are adamant that was the abductor, and at 10 pm Kate Mccann found the window and shutters open and the curtains open....only at 9.30 their mate Matthew Oldfield went inside to do a check for the and he didnt see the window or shutter open and he said curtains were closed

One big con IMO

 

[SapphireSteel]

The twins were actually 2 and a bit in May 2007, born early Feb 2005, but still, stupefying to leave them to take care of themselves! One of the excuses given for leaving the door open was in case of fire, shocking! Do you know of any 2 year old that could rescue themselves? sad ar ses

I bet they locked their passports and cameras up while they were gone.

:stormingmad:

 

[Clutchbag]

I bet they locked their passports and cameras up while they were gone.

:stormingmad:

During the day they locked their flat back and front because alot of robberies happen during the day in these resorts...but they thought it was a good idea to leave it unlocked, ie leave the back door/patio door which you just push aside to enter, at night anyway and with their three babies in it!!!!

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

LOL thats semantics

IMO no one did anyway

The Mccanns say Jane Tanner their friend saw a man carryng a child at 9.15 that night, just after mAdeleines father had done a check, and they are adamant that was the abductor, and at 10 pm Kate Mccann found the window and shutters open and the curtains open....only at 9.30 their mate Matthew Oldfield went inside to do a check for the and he didnt see the window or shutter open and he said curtains were closed

One big con IMO

Jane tanner says she saw a man. If the door was unlocked it really does not matter how the window was left. Someone had access no matter what.
I think that it is most likely that Madeleine was most likely taken and the little details don't change that about that night.

 

[Clutchbag]

Jane tanner says she saw a man. If the door was unlocked it really does not matter how the window was left. Someone had access no matter what.
I think that it is most likely that Madeleine was most likely taken and the little details don't change that about that night.

You obviously missed the point..IF Tanner saw the abductor at 9.15 pm and Kate found the window and shutters and curtains open at 10 pm.... Then how come Oldfield who did a check at 9.30 not see any of that? Hello?????

 

[jordynsmommy529]

You obviously missed the point..IF Tanner saw the abductor at 9.15 pm and Kate found the window and shutters and curtains open at 10 pm.... Then how come Oldfield who did a check at 9.30 not see any of that? Hello?????

The only explnation being kate opended the window. Or its always possible after the abductor made it away with madeleine he came back and opened the window! .:floorlaugh:

 

[gord]

You obviously missed the point..IF Tanner saw the abductor at 9.15 pm and Kate found the window and shutters and curtains open at 10 pm.... Then how come Oldfield who did a check at 9.30 not see any of that? Hello?????

oldfield said that he listened at door for noise and didn't actually do a visual check - so would not have noticed a missing maddy or open window.

I still think that two perps were involved . It was planned so they knew movements - perp 1 entered via patio door which he knew was unlocked as soon as Gerry had left from check - quickly into room and chloroform on Maddy - opens window and then hands a subdued Maddy to perp 2 who walks away to a car up the road

He either then goes back the way he came or goes out of window - all were wearing gloves and this would have taken minutes

Car would have been almost in Spain by the time Kate discovers a missing maddy

obligatory IMOO - It was possible and would have left no clues or forensics - especially after flat was full of people

who knows