Why was JB killed?

[Chelly]

She was bashed on the head first because she screamed (from whatever caused the vaginal bleeding). The strangulation was meant to provide a VISIBLE cause of death, as the head bash was not apparent looking at her. Im fact, it wasn't apparent until the autopsy, and according to LE present at that autopsy, it was a shock to all when the coroner pulled back her scalp and saw the fracture. Every expert who studied this case, including LE and some who saw either the autopsy or photos of it, agree that the head bash came first. I can think of only one forensic specialist who felt otherwise.

Absolutely agree. I go with the evidence and logical theories based on fact as well.

 

[Chelly]

The partial strangulation was part of the erotica. The head bash was because JB was not cooperating. The complete strangulation was last. Just a possible reason....

and this occurred at the pedophile cult sex party attended by Ramsey friends and various nameless Boulder and LA movers and shakers?

 

[midwest mama]

and this occurred at the pedophile cult sex party attended by Ramsey friends and various nameless Boulder and LA movers and shakers?

IMO, all or part of this could be just as true as a 9 yr old being the perpetrator. Except we would accept a 9 yr old sibling being capable, more readily than we can accept the Ramsey's being involved in pedophilia.

 

[DeDee]

and this occurred at the pedophile cult sex party attended by Ramsey friends and various nameless Boulder and LA movers and shakers?

We are currently discussing the possibility of a child sexual abuse club operating in the Boulder area. You mention LA. Were the White's guests from LA? The White's guests were said to be Kali followers; whereby, sex is the most important element of life for them.

KALI
"Because we honor and respect sex so much, we are not ashamed to share our experiences with others who worship the goddess, because it has been proven that allowing others to witness sex brings many people happiness, just from witnessing the act, therefore if all participants are willing to share their experiences, then as long as the spectators respect the sacred ceremony and do nothing to interfere unless asked, sharing sexual experiences are considered an honorable thing."

We know the Rs attended the Christmas Party in 1995 and 1996 that the White's hosted.

I do not think anyone drove a dead JonBenét home but I've been wrong before. I do think there was a video made that night. I think the dictionary page folded to point toward the word "incest" was a red herring. JMO

I think about a bunch of other stuff that I haven't had time to gather into a cohesive presentation. More research on a few items is needed.

MOO :jail:

 

[elannia]

I too think its more believable to think that the death and all the events happened at home. BUT... Anyhoo came up with a good theory and its made me look back at certain things. I will say its really hard for me to believe the R's could be involved in this pedo sex ring cult thingy but i just cant rule it out. And I believe this NK woman. (Hope I can put her on here?) MOO

 

[Tawny]

I just wish we could be let in on the secret information that helped to develop that theory. Maybe then more of us would be more able to see it as possible.

 

[midwest mama]

We are currently discussing the possibility of a child sexual abuse club operating in the Boulder area. You mention LA. Were the White's guests from LA? The White's guests were said to be Kali followers; whereby, sex is the most important element of life for them.



We know the Rs attended the Christmas Party in 1995 and 1996 that the White's hosted.

I do not think anyone drove a dead JonBenét home but I've been wrong before. I do think there was a video made that night. I think the dictionary page folded to point toward the word "incest" was a red herring. JMO

I think about a bunch of other stuff that I haven't had time to gather into a cohesive presentation. More research on a few items is needed.

MOO :jail:

IIRC, there were two male guests at the White residence during the holidays who were from California (Los Angeles?)that came along to the Dec 23rd Christmas Party at the R's. One was connected to White's sister, and I do not remember the connection of the other guy...perhaps a family friend? I have read conflicting statements as to whether White's sister was also with the White's during the same time. Your link to White's mother's obituary states that she and Lani, (White's sister) often traveled during the Christmas season.

 

[Mama2JML]

The most accepted conclusion of the timing of the head blow, using several years of reported data from respected experts, presents the head blow occurring prior to the ligature strangulation. If there was a master plan to make the entire crime appear as if it had happened at the Ramsey home, there would have been as many items "planted" as necessary to achieve that portrayal.

It seems to me there is evidence to suggest JonBenét was 'somewhat' strangled prior to the head blow.

The cord was connected to purchases made by Patsy just prior to the murder which might have been purchased initially by her to use as a transport sling for her paintings between home and class. The tape was connected to the possibility of having come from an American Girl doll (which JB had) or the back mount of one of Patsy's paintings. True, there were no other pieces of cord or that tape found in the home, but it doesn't mean they didn't originate there.

It is certainly possible both items (the cord & the tape) came from the Ramsey's home. As well, it is possible Patsy purchased the cord, and the tape had first been applied to one of JonBenét's AG dolls. Possible, but lacking plausibility. MOO.

I believe the ligature was applied to JB in her home. The tape, IMO, could have been applied pretty quickly after the head bash, and if that occurred in another location, the tape could have been there as well.

BBM
I agree.

 

[Aynia]

Let me play Devil's advocate here. The R's stated they stopped at several friends houses on Christmas evening. What if the head bash was given at one of these stops? What if there was a secret party on the way home? Burke would have been coached, and too scared to rat them out. He could be next. 90 minutes is plenty of time to get her home from a friend's house.

IMHO the pineapple tells us she was alive and awake when she got home that night.

 

[DeeDee249]

IMHO the pineapple tells us she was alive and awake when she got home that night.

Absolutely. She was awake, alive and (per BR) walked into the house that night. She may have fallen asleep in the car, but I believe she woke up when they got home and walked into the house. According to the estimated time of death of between midnight and 1 am, she would have eaten the pineapple shortly after arriving home, and the R's claim they arrived home around 9:30 pm. The timeline works and is very logical. Arrival home 9:30, pineapple snack around 10 pm, and whatever occurred between JB and her molester and/or killer was over by midnight. Rigor mortis fully developed by her "discovery" at 1 pm the following day- fits perfectly with the 12 hour arc for rigor to reach full development.

 

[midwest mama]

It seems to me there is evidence to suggest JonBenét was 'somewhat' strangled prior to the head blow.

It is certainly possible both items (the cord & the tape) came from the Ramsey's home. As well, it is possible Patsy purchased the cord, and the tape had first been applied to one of JonBenét's AG dolls. Possible, but lacking plausibility. MOO.

BBM
I agree.

BBM. Yes, this has been debated. I have long considered there was some type of strangulation which caused the bruising along the front, lower right side of her neck. This is not the odd shaped "abrasion" noted on the autopsy report being on the front lower left side of her neck. These marked have been guessed as having happened by someone grabbing her shirt and twisting it against her. And the triangular, rust colored abrasion has often been chalked up to blood pooling up under her skin, which is not uncommon for the circumstances.

My opinion is that there was a strangulation done first in an aggressive control attempt using a soft fabric of some sort, the head blow followed and the perpetrator loosened the fabric, assuming the head bash was lethal. After a time, when it was realized death had not occurred, but JB was not going to rally, the final ligature strangulation was done.

I agree with those who believe this was a sexually motivated crime, but I think the sexual aspect included an initial "soft fabric" strangling, culminating in a head blow.
And the person who applied the final cord ligature knew how the head injury occurred.

I think the ligature was meant to provide a clear forensic explanation for the "kidnapping gone awry" theme that was concocted for the ransom note. And that the killer thought that a penetration with the paint brush handle would provide coverage or offer explanation for any discovered sexual molestation of JB's body.

All MOO

 

[midwest mama]

DeeDee249, please help in looking at the timeline of this chart:
Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions
Body temperature Body stiffness Time since death
warm not stiff dead not more than three hours
warm stiff dead 3 to 8 hours
cold stiff dead 8 to 36 hours
cold not stiff dead more than 36 hours

Read more: http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#ixzz3CQ3ihf5F

If JB was displaying as cold and stiff when JR brought her out of the basement, this chart indicates she could have been dead more than the 12 hours we usually associate for a time line. If you do not agree, please try to help me understand why. I genuinely cannot figure out why we must look at JB's time of death around midnite, especially when there was no fluid drawn by the coroner when he arrived near 8 pm at the Ramsey house on the 26th, before having the body taken away.

Also, JR picking the 25th for her headstone has always made me think he did that because he knew she really did die Christmas night, not after midnite. And, there's the Bloomies, for Wednesday, the 25th....

 

[elannia]

BBM. Yes, this has been debated. I have long considered there was some type of strangulation which caused the bruising along the front, lower right side of her neck. This is not the odd shaped "abrasion" noted on the autopsy report being on the front lower left side of her neck. These marked have been guessed as having happened by someone grabbing her shirt and twisting it against her. And the triangular, rust colored abrasion has often been chalked up to blood pooling up under her skin, which is not uncommon for the circumstances.

My opinion is that there was a strangulation done first in an aggressive control attempt using a soft fabric of some sort, the head blow followed and the perpetrator loosened the fabric, assuming the head bash was lethal. After a time, when it was realized death had not occurred, but JB was not going to rally, the final ligature strangulation was done.

I agree with those who believe this was a sexually motivated crime, but I think the sexual aspect included an initial "soft fabric" strangling, culminating in a head blow.
And the person who applied the final cord ligature knew how the head injury occurred.

I think the ligature was meant to provide a clear forensic explanation for the "kidnapping gone awry" theme that was concocted for the ransom note. And that the killer thought that a penetration with the paint brush handle would provide coverage or offer explanation for any discovered sexual molestation of JB's body.

All MOO

What about the scarf JR just had to put in her caskewith her. Do you think it has any meaning?

 

[elannia]

What is weird to me is why the coroner didnt get there until 8:00 that night... And he didnt even check to see what would have been the TOD. He was only there for 10 minutes why the hurry to where he could have not checked that out? That would have made a BIG difference in this case if we knew what time she really died. I know there is a lot of evidence we dont know about but this was recorded. And I think JR knew that she died Christmas night and that is why its on the headstone. All MOO

 

[ukrberserker23]

I think our theory has a fatal flaw. Have any of you ever been strangled before? I have, and have attempted suicide by hanging a couple times.If JBR was "somewhat" strangled, she probably would not be able to swallow pineapple. Back to square one again.

 

[Mama2JML]

I think our theory has a fatal flaw. Have any of you ever been strangled before? I have, and have attempted suicide by hanging a couple times.If JBR was "somewhat" strangled, she probably would not be able to swallow pineapple. Back to square one again.

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I have not personally experienced anything similar to being strangled, so I'm unsure what you mean. FWIW, according to at least one forensic expert consulted in this case, the pineapple could have been consumed prior to leaving for the Whites' home.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ukrberserker23]

I used a 2 inch wide leather belt, and couldn't swallow anything but liquid for several hours. This all happened when I was living in Ukraine, not here.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249, please help in looking at the timeline of this chart:
Approximate times for algor and rigor mortis in temperate regions
Body temperature Body stiffness Time since death
warm not stiff dead not more than three hours
warm stiff dead 3 to 8 hours
cold stiff dead 8 to 36 hours
cold not stiff dead more than 36 hours

Read more: http://www.deathreference.com/Py-Se/Rigor-Mortis-and-Other-Postmortem-Changes.html#ixzz3CQ3ihf5F

If JB was displaying as cold and stiff when JR brought her out of the basement, this chart indicates she could have been dead more than the 12 hours we usually associate for a time line. If you do not agree, please try to help me understand why. I genuinely cannot figure out why we must look at JB's time of death around midnite, especially when there was no fluid drawn by the coroner when he arrived near 8 pm at the Ramsey house on the 26th, before having the body taken away.

Also, JR picking the 25th for her headstone has always made me think he did that because he knew she really did die Christmas night, not after midnite. And, there's the Bloomies, for Wednesday, the 25th....

Not sure what you'r asking but rigor mortis in average indoor temperatures (including the R's basement which JR described as "warm" because of the furnace) will follow an approximate 36-hour "arc". Your chart shows "cold-stiff= dead 8-36 hours). This chart is in keeping with the accepted timeline for her death. Rigor takes 12 hours to form fully, remains full for 12-18 hours and then begins to "pass off" or diminish over the next 12 hours or so. JB was "found" at 1 pm the following day and she was in full rigor when found. This agrees with a death occurring around midnight-1am. The coroner first examined the body at 8 pm that night and she was still in full rigor. This brought her to approx. 18 hours since death. The autopsy was the following morning (the 27th) ay 8 am- she had been dead 30+ hours, but less than 36. The coroner found rigor was beginning to subside. This is in keeping with rigor having ended after about 36 hours. Your chart states this- cold and NOT stiff indicates death more than 36 hours before. In another few hours, she would no longer have any stiffness in her body and secondary flaccidity would have occurred. If this is what you are asking - I agree with that chart and find the condition of her body at various intervals is in keeping with the accepted timeline for rigor mortis. I do not believe she was dead that much MORE than the 12 hours because the pineapple indicated she was alive for at least 2 hours after she ate it. If she ate it when they got home around 9:30-10 pm, she lived till midnight-1 am. So she was not dead much more than 12 hours- or she would have been dead before they got home and I do not believe this to be the case. Every indication is thats he was bashed and strangled in her own home- and she did not arrive home until close to 10 pm.
JR admitted he chose the date of Dec 25 to put on the grave marker so that (his words) "the world would see what it did to JB on Christmas Day". It was a more "memorable" date than Dec 26th. The Bloomies said "Wednesday" and Christmas that day WAS a Wednesday. There is speculation that JB may have been wearing her own pair of Wednesday panties in her own size and they needed to be replaced with an identical pair in case someone at the White's had seen them. As we know, JB was known to ask anyone around to help her in the bathroom.

 

[DeeDee249]

In addition, it is true the coroner should have performed a liver stab (to take core temperature) and removed some vitreous fluid from the eyeball (to check potassium levels) - both procedures standard to determine time of death. But there are other indications- rigor mortis being one, and stomach contents (or other digestive tract contents) can help as well. In JB's case, the stage of digestion and location of the pineapple in her small intestine combined with the stage of rigor are sufficient to provide a fairly accurate time of death. After all, this was not a body found out in a field or the trunk of an abandoned car. This was a child who attended activities that day with her family that could be easily verified. There was a timeline to her final 12 hours of life that can be verified. So the accepted TOD of midnight to 1 am is not contradicted by either that chart or anything else I have seen. Bottom line- there is no way she could have been dead much more than 12-13 hours when she was found.
Yes, you chart says that cold-stiff COULD mean dead UP TO 36 hours, but in this case we have other indications that place the time of death at approx. 12 hours (give or take) before she was found. It didn't mean SHE could have been dead that long.

 

[UKGuy]

She was bashed on the head first because she screamed (from whatever caused the vaginal bleeding). The strangulation was meant to provide a VISIBLE cause of death, as the head bash was not apparent looking at her. Im fact, it wasn't apparent until the autopsy, and according to LE present at that autopsy, it was a shock to all when the coroner pulled back her scalp and saw the fracture. Every expert who studied this case, including LE and some who saw either the autopsy or photos of it, agree that the head bash came first. I can think of only one forensic specialist who felt otherwise.

DeeDee249,
BBM: How does that work? Maybe it was EA on BR's behalf gone wrong who can tell?

(from whatever caused the vaginal bleeding).

Care to speculate? Was it a finger or the paintbrush handle or both?

Some of JonBenet's injuries might be staged. Attributing them to her original assailant might be exactly what the R's wanted?

.