Why was JB killed?

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
BBM: How does that work? Maybe it was EA on BR's behalf gone wrong who can tell?


Care to speculate? Was it a finger or the paintbrush handle or both?

Some of JonBenet's injuries might be staged. Attributing them to her original assailant might be exactly what the R's wanted?

.

Definitely do NOT believe it was AE if BR was involved. Boys that age can definitely engage in sexual activity, but AE is a bit too much to expect of a 9 year old. The coroner thought digital penetration- I agree. Unless the paintbrush is definitely stated as FACT as being found inside her vagina, believe the wood splinters that WERE stated has having been inside her vagina were put there because they were on the finger that broke the brush (and this is not necessarily the same finger that did the digital penetration). There was definitely a staging component to the acute sexual abuse (the abuse that occurred that night, as opposed to the chronic abuse that occurred prior to that night). The person guilty of the abuse may not be the same person who did the staging. I believe the paintbrush had more to do with the staging than being used to penetrate her as part of the sexual abuse. But I am open to the possibility.

 

[UKGuy]

Definitely do NOT believe it was AE if BR was involved. Boys that age can definitely engage in sexual activity, but AE is a bit too much to expect of a 9 year old. The coroner thought digital penetration- I agree. Unless the paintbrush is definitely stated as FACT as being found inside her vagina, believe the wood splinters that WERE stated has having been inside her vagina were put there because they were on the finger that broke the brush (and this is not necessarily the same finger that did the digital penetration). There was definitely a staging component to the acute sexual abuse (the abuse that occurred that night, as opposed to the chronic abuse that occurred prior to that night). The person guilty of the abuse may not be the same person who did the staging. I believe the paintbrush had more to do with the staging than being used to penetrate her as part of the sexual abuse. But I am open to the possibility.

DeeDee249,

There was definitely a staging component to the acute sexual abuse (the abuse that occurred that night, as opposed to the chronic abuse that occurred prior to that night). The person guilty of the abuse may not be the same person who did the staging. I believe the paintbrush had more to do with the staging than being used to penetrate her as part of the sexual abuse. But I am open to the possibility.

ITA. The problematic part is the splinter, since it might come from say a broken pencil or anything else cellulose? The balance of probabilities suggests it arrived via the paintbrush but possibly not directly say via another persons finger, i.e. someone wanting to obscure either the acute or chronic injuries or both?

If the splinter is from the paintbrush handle then if we assume the paintbrush handle was selected as part of the staging and played no part in the acute injury we can pinpoint where in a sequence of events the splinter arrived inside JonBenet, i.e. after it was broken?

It looks to me as if someone staged JonBenet to appear as if someone had seriously sexually assaulted her, yet someone else came along cleaned her up redressed her in the size-12's then placed her in the wine-cellar, why so?

Whatever the motive which as you suggest might be linked to the chronic injury, this is what appeared to take place, causing everyone to wonder why hide the staged sexual assault: possibly simply to match a new staging scenario, i.e. kidnapping, and it worked!

Definitely do NOT believe it was AE if BR was involved.

I tend to agree yet what if BR was experimenting with this and JonBenet's initial asphyxiation was the result of this going terribly wrong.

I think Wecht's vagus nerve theory is correct since it explains the evidence, also EA need not be invoked, BR or PR might simply have been holding JonBenet by the neck for too long resulting in serious brain injury. It also explains why a garrote mechanism was chosen as the staging, so to mask the vagus nerve injuries.

I think an R attempted to both silence and physically constrain JonBenet by holding her by the neck. Given there was sexual contact this points to one of two suspects?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

Too long and subject may begin to froth and convulse

Chokehold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v5pOw4_Jz4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtUKJQ73YDc

Rear naked choke:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=737_iPRMNbo

 

[ukrberserker23]

Well, getting back to the topic of the thread, I believe JBR was sacrificed because the sexual abuse was discovered, and because PR wanted to make her an angel. That way, when PR died, they would be together, and no one would be molesting JBR anymore. I still believe all three of them had a hand in it. It would have been BR or JR who put the wrong sized panties on her. PR would have never put panties that big on her daughter.

 

[decemberbee45]

I'm compelled to write this post. I've always been a RDI (well, not always...after much study) but as the mother of a 6 year old daughter who still wets the bed, I am hard pressed to believe that wetting the bed was a trigger for Patsy. Nor do I think it necessarily an indication of sexual molestation or familial strife. Our pediatrician said that 25% of kids wet the bed thru age 12!

I'm just so torn. IMO, everything I read points to the R's, but it is so inconceivable as I look at my 6 year old. We are a lucky family and are blessed to have means...nothing like the Ramseys....but I know that money does not make somebody "good"....it also doesn't make them evil.

Sad to say, if I could ask God 3 questions one would be: what happened to JonBenet? Thanks for indulging me and thanks for all your hard sleuthing.

 

[UKGuy]

I'm compelled to write this post. I've always been a RDI (well, not always...after much study) but as the mother of a 6 year old daughter who still wets the bed, I am hard pressed to believe that wetting the bed was a trigger for Patsy. Nor do I think it necessarily an indication of sexual molestation or familial strife. Our pediatrician said that 25% of kids wet the bed thru age 12!

I'm just so torn. IMO, everything I read points to the R's, but it is so inconceivable as I look at my 6 year old. We are a lucky family and are blessed to have means...nothing like the Ramseys....but I know that money does not make somebody "good"....it also doesn't make them evil.

Sad to say, if I could ask God 3 questions one would be: what happened to JonBenet? Thanks for indulging me and thanks for all your hard sleuthing.

decemberbee45,
I tend to agree with you, but with a staged crime-scene, anything is possible, since important evidence has been removed. My younger brother wet the bed through to age 6 or 7, and although nobody abused him, maybe he had some emotional issues going on or stress, that as a child I never picked up on, he just stopped one day!

I doubt the trigger was wetting the bed, it might be and Steve Thomas' PDI theory is correct, after all Patsy's forensic evidence is all over the wine-cellar. If it was PDI then I would expect the staging to be more structured and coherent and it is neither, with the Breakfast Bar left uncleaned, JonBenet in ridiculous size-12's and a ransom note that should have won a Pulitzer prize.

All three R's are linked to the wine-cellar via forensic evidence, i.e. via fibers from PR and JR and BR's touch-dna. So we need a theory that incorporates all of this, and for me BDI fits the bill. Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints are on the pineapple bowl and teaglass, so we can place them in the Breakfast Bar and JonBenet wide awake when the R's said she was lying in bed asleep!

The R's admitted Burke was awake during the 911 call, before he returned to bed to fake being asleep, later his father spirited him out of the house, why so, since if BPD found JonBenet the whole house would have been sealed off and the occupants removed?

The red flag here is that BR colluded with his parents, so he knows what happened the night JonBenet was killed!

Considering 12/25/1996 only, my only reservation regarding any RDI theory is: is it possible that JonBenet's sexual assault was staged?

She might have chronic injuries but we do not know how these are linked with events on 12/25/1996?

We are a lucky family and are blessed to have means...nothing like the Ramseys....but I know that money does not make somebody "good"....it also doesn't make them evil.

Money is neutral its what you do with it that counts, raising a healthy family is certainly one good thing, and when you look around you and see some of the crazy stuff that is going on, then I guess you are a lucky family .


.

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

I'm compelled to write this post. I've always been a RDI (well, not always...after much study) but as the mother of a 6 year old daughter who still wets the bed, I am hard pressed to believe that wetting the bed was a trigger for Patsy. Nor do I think it necessarily an indication of sexual molestation or familial strife. Our pediatrician said that 25% of kids wet the bed thru age 12!

I'm just so torn. IMO, everything I read points to the R's, but it is so inconceivable as I look at my 6 year old. We are a lucky family and are blessed to have means...nothing like the Ramseys....but I know that money does not make somebody "good"....it also doesn't make them evil.

Sad to say, if I could ask God 3 questions one would be: what happened to JonBenet? Thanks for indulging me and thanks for all your hard sleuthing.[/B]QUOTE]



Me too. I would also ask about the death of JFK.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm compelled to write this post. I've always been a RDI (well, not always...after much study) but as the mother of a 6 year old daughter who still wets the bed, I am hard pressed to believe that wetting the bed was a trigger for Patsy. Nor do I think it necessarily an indication of sexual molestation or familial strife. Our pediatrician said that 25% of kids wet the bed thru age 12!

I'm just so torn. IMO, everything I read points to the R's, but it is so inconceivable as I look at my 6 year old. We are a lucky family and are blessed to have means...nothing like the Ramseys....but I know that money does not make somebody "good"....it also doesn't make them evil.

Sad to say, if I could ask God 3 questions one would be: what happened to JonBenet? Thanks for indulging me and thanks for all your hard sleuthing.

I don't think it was for wetting the bed either. But this family got away with it because of people believing that "a parent couldn't do this". Maybe YOU couldn't do this, but all you have to do is look at the news to see that parents can do some pretty horrific things to their kids. I am RDI. I started out believing Patsy did it in a rage over JB soiling (not wetting) and it pushed a stressed-out Patsy over the edge. But I came to feel that Patsy, as well as JR, were involved in covering up the accidental killing of JB by another family member. After the GJ indictments were revealed, it became very clear to me. All it takes it to read the indictments to see that the parents were going to be indicted for failing to protect JB from
"abuse resulting in death" . Abuse and assault by the only other family member who was in the house that night.

 

[lawstudent]

The thing is, when someone snaps and does something crazy like kill a child, the answer isn't what little event happened that night - that's just the trigger. The answer is some sort of hidden or escalating mental disconnect or overwhelming rage that gets triggered. We don't know enough about what happened to say what was the trigger, *if* it was Patsy who killed her. Some people would be triggered over bed wetting, but it could be a million other things we have no way of knowing about, like something JB or someone else in the house said that upset her. Looking for the explanation seems silly to me - what I would be looking for was a history of bizarre behavior, even if only a few incidents that never indicated something so bad would happen. While I lean RDI, I've never thought there was much to suggest that sort of history. I've known a lot of people who were mostly normal but could have their moments of losing it, and I could see how something bad could happen, so I'm not suggesting that regular people don't do crazy things. And I know Patsy had issues, but so does everyone. I don't see red flags of total meltdowns that suggest under the right circumstances it could go further. That doesn't mean nothing happened, but I do think it's hard to come up with a good theory of what happened to start the events that night.

I guess my main point is that saying "well I would never beat my kid over X/a lot of kids have that issue" doesn't explain the behavior either way. Someone "snaps" because of that one event that puts too much weight on them, but it's something that is related to a million other things that have been building up. The triggering event is never going to seem like a sensible explanation, and it may be something so small that we would never even think of it as setting someone off.

 

[andreww]

The fact that PR was dressed (in the same clothes from the previous night) and fully made up when LE arrived on the scene tells me that it was a long night in the Ramsey home and that she likely never went to bed. I really don't see BR being involved, but I don't doubt that he has a good idea what happened. JR may or may not have been involved. It really is possible that he went to bed and woke up to PRs mess but I doubt it. The Ransom note content seems to be all JR. He also found the body and I believe he knew it was there all along.

What does all this tell me? Whatever happened, happened very soon after the Ramsey's returned home. I believe BR was probably in bed. I believe there was a disagreement between JBR and PR. I think it spiralled out of control from there and that JR joined in to stage the faked abduction. As to the why?, there are only 2 people that know that answer and they both seem quite content to keep that a family secret.

 

[ukrberserker23]

I don't believe that anyone could have slept through the commotion in this house that night. Maybe BR went back to sleep after midnight. If the scream was loud enough for neighbors to hear it, do you think anyone in that house could sleep through it? I also feel that something happened to JBR at the Christmas party on the 23rd. Where she said that she didn't feel very pretty. I think this is the direct tie-in with BR. Children usually segregate themselves at parties. I always did when we went to other people's houses. I think BR may have decided to share his playmate with the other boys at the party. Then on Christmas night, he decided to have more fun in the basement with Sis.Hence, the flashlight. This is how repeat abusers work. They go a little farther each time. Especially kids who are experiencing it for the first time.No one ever noticed if BR's underwear were stained in the front. Doubtful if a 9 year old boy had reached puberty yet. No semen found on JBR's body,or in it. Something enlarged her vagina to twice the normal size, and it wasn't a paintbrush handle. I've been wondering if maybe it wasn't BR who smeared the feces on the chocolate. Doesn't sound like something an adult would do. But a jealous sibling, yes. Maybe BR started in his bedroom, or JBR's. She was startled so much that she crapped herself. Then JBR tried to clean herself up in the bathroom, or PR was called to do the job. Later, they were both together in the kitchen eating pineapple with PR. Then PR goes off to pack, while BR and JBR head off to the basement to finish the game. I'm just shooting in the dark. No matter what theory we come up with, some part doesn't fit with the evidence.

 

[MissHaley]

Perhaps, but if I were JR I think I would just want to know what other people think. Nothing he could say under a fake user name would change any minds anyway. Personally, I think JR and PR did an excellent job in staging and confusing everyone about the true nature of this crime so well that not only was nobody convicted or even charged with the murder but here we are seventeen years later going around in circles without any real hope of solving it. Although I think he's a snake, he should be proud of what he accomplished.

Also, add to that the major influence he had with the DA's to protect & divert so much, lawyers blocking interviews, not collecting evidence until years later, etc. How can that one family have so much power in controlling a homicide investigation? Boggles my mind.

 

[BBB167893]

Also, add to that the major influence he had with the DA's to protect & divert so much, lawyers blocking interviews, not collecting evidence until years later, etc. How can that one family have so much power in controlling a homicide investigation? Boggles my mind.

I've been looking for a place to bring this up, and now seems a good time.

Some time ago, I mentioned how the Boulder DA's office reminded me of Rome, c. 1500 AD, under the rule of Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI) and his son Cesare. The person to whom the post was addressed wasn't familiar with the reference, so I provided historical context: the Borgias were ruthless, cruel, sadistic, treacherous tyrants who would stop at nothing to gain and maintain power. When the Borgias finally fell, the next Pope, Julius II, began a thorough house-cleaning. This is what he said the day of his election:

"I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He desecrated the Holy Church as none before. He usurped the papal power by the devil's aid, and I forbid under the pain of excommunication anyone to speak or think of Borgia again. His name and memory must be forgotten. It must be crossed out of every document and memorial. His reign must be obliterated. All paintings made of the Borgias or for them must be covered over with black crepe. All the tombs of the Borgias must be opened and their bodies sent back to where they belong – to Spain."

If only Stan Garnett had said something like that. He'd have been right on the money.

 

[UKGuy]

I've been looking for a place to bring this up, and now seems a good time.

Some time ago, I mentioned how the Boulder DA's office reminded me of Rome, c. 1500 AD, under the rule of Rodrigo Borgia (Pope Alexander VI) and his son Cesare. The person to whom the post was addressed wasn't familiar with the reference, so I provided historical context: the Borgias were ruthless, cruel, sadistic, treacherous tyrants who would stop at nothing to gain and maintain power. When the Borgias finally fell, the next Pope, Julius II, began a thorough house-cleaning. This is what he said the day of his election:

"I will not live in the same rooms as the Borgias lived. He desecrated the Holy Church as none before. He usurped the papal power by the devil's aid, and I forbid under the pain of excommunication anyone to speak or think of Borgia again. His name and memory must be forgotten. It must be crossed out of every document and memorial. His reign must be obliterated. All paintings made of the Borgias or for them must be covered over with black crepe. All the tombs of the Borgias must be opened and their bodies sent back to where they belong – to Spain."

If only Stan Garnett had said something like that. He'd have been right on the money.

SuperDave,
mmm, check out caligula, he who used the fat from christians to keep the candles burning, and engineered the burning of rome, blamed on the christians, to expidite his town planning agenda.

The Borgias simply copied the egyptian model of power, i.e. akhenaton marries his sister etc, and dies from congenital disease.

Incest as a strategy only works so far, bear in mind that the inheritors of the Roman Empire, i.e. The Catholic Church, forbid their pastors, priests, to have children, sex is verbotten!

Yet, do an internet seach, you will find that the Cologne diocese, alone, has assets accruing to a value of 3 billion or thereabouts, multiply that by all the other world wide diocese'

So the republicans of an age gone by with their use of slaves seem to have generated a nice income stream today, and will the current Pope complain accordingly?

Answers on a postcard to the JonBenet Ramsey Foundation, all calls will be charged at the geographic rate for your area, blah, blah.




.

 

[DeeDee249]

With the Catholic Church, then as now, it was "do as I day, not as I do". As we have seen, sadly, the vow of celibacy has been treated as a "suggestion" and not a sacred promise. And they have not taken that suggestion too seriously. There have been coverups since Cain & Abel. Adam blames Eve for his sin. There was no apple, and I think we can guess what the snake really was.

 

[BBB167893]

UKGuy & DeeDee: I appreciate the weigh-ins, but I used the Borgias as an analogy. I didn't intend for us to get bogged down in history or theology.

I simply meant that the DA's office needed a thorough house-cleaning.

 

[pukasonqo2]

SuperDave,
mmm, check out caligula, he who used the fat from christians to keep the candles burning, and engineered the burning of rome, blamed on the christians, to expidite his town planning agenda.

The Borgias simply copied the egyptian model of power, i.e. akhenaton marries his sister etc, and dies from congenital disease.

Incest as a strategy only works so far, bear in mind that the inheritors of the Roman Empire, i.e. The Catholic Church, forbid their pastors, priests, to have children, sex is verbotten!

Yet, do an internet seach, you will find that the Cologne diocese, alone, has assets accruing to a value of 3 billion or thereabouts, multiply that by all the other world wide diocese'

So the republicans of an age gone by with their use of slaves seem to have generated a nice income stream today, and will the current Pope complain accordingly?

Answers on a postcard to the JonBenet Ramsey Foundation, all calls will be charged at the geographic rate for your area, blah, blah.




.

not to be a pain, but wasn't nero the emperor who blamed the burning of rome on the christians?
back on track, i am still of the mind that JB was killed by accident, probably by BR, didn't he hit her with a golf club in a previous incident?
as to why, i don't think BR (if he is guilty) wanted to kill her, maybe they started fighting and it escalated

 

[andreww]

The Ramsey's always tried to spin that golf club incident as accidental, but during one of Patsy's police interviews she stated that JB had an injury to her head and another to her leg. If she was hit twice, it sure doesn't sound like an accident does it?

I thought along those lines for a while as well, thinking Burke might have done something by accident or in anger, however it just didn't fit with the re-dressing and coverup of a sexual assault.

 

[pukasonqo2]

The Ramsey's always tried to spin that golf club incident as accidental, but during one of Patsy's police interviews she stated that JB had an injury to her head and another to her leg. If she was hit twice, it sure doesn't sound like an accident does it?

I thought along those lines for a while as well, thinking Burke might have done something by accident or in anger, however it just didn't fit with the re-dressing and coverup of a sexual assault.

this is a family that had/has very strange dynamics...i have two kids boy and girl, four years apart and they have their fights and there has been some hair pulling and name calling (how dysfunctional of us!) but to hit a younger sibling with a golf club, i don't know, seems like too much rage and a very clear intent to hurt. the first time you could excuse it by saying it was accidental, it could well be; then you have a second, similar accident?
siblings might dislike each other but is BR was hurting JB when were the parents planning to intervene?
weird that no flags were raised by the paediatrician re: the sibling's dynamics
i am started to think that if you are rich a lot of excuses are made for you, if you are not...

 

[andreww]

I do think the baseball bat incident was more than an accident because of the double hit. So why couldn't Burke have clubbed her over the head with the aluminum bat that night? I just think there is too much evidence pointing in other directions. The wet clothes, the wiping of her body,and the redressing indicate that somebody was trying to cover a sexual assault. But who knows, maybe all that was done to simply make it look like a sexual assault took place? We know there was ongoing abuse but was there any conclusive evidence that she was sexually abused that night? I read something recently that suggested the last abuse probably happened 24-48 hours prior to her death. Is that correct?


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