Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[Linda7NJ]

MyBelle,

BBM: Exactly. I tend to see the death of JonBenet and the subsequent staging as a secular fall from grace.



Millionares simply do not indulge in incest or kill their children, their money allows them to live in a manner whereby they are not corrupted by the more venal desires that afflict the little people.



The public reading this case can see how the R's reputation has been trashed despite lawsuits attempting to prevent any light being shed on the case.



Nobody can prove much, there is no smoking gun, yet some of the forensic and behavioural evidence is bizarre: sexual assault, fecal deposits, brother and sister sharing beds regularly, both at night and during the day, relatives and friends remarking on both brother and sisters behaviour, pageant culture, etc.



Does anyone else know a millionares daughter who attends pageants? Past, Present or Future?



JonBenet's death patently opened a can of worms the the R's have done their best to reclose!







.

I know of one wealthy family whose daughter participated ( and won) in pageants. One. The child was 16 and it was the New Jersey Peach Queen pageant...I still tease them about it


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[gramcracker]

Marilyn van Derbur, Miss America 1958, whose family was quite wealthy. her father held numerous national positions of power (such as president of the Nat'l Inter-fraternity Council: president of all the college fraternities in the US) and made generous donations to organizations such as Boy Scouts of America. living the lie that they were a close, loving, perfect family was particularly important to her mother. Marilyn was sexually abused by her father from ages 5-18. she believed that her father would have killed her if he suspected that she would reveal the abuse

 

[UKGuy]

I know of one wealthy family whose daughter participated ( and won) in pageants. One. The child was 16 and it was the New Jersey Peach Queen pageant...I still tease them about it


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Linda7NJ,
Just tells you how much I know about pageants. I was suggesting pageant participation might not be mainstream in the millionare sector of society?

.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Linda7NJ,

Just tells you how much I know about pageants. I was suggesting pageant participation might not be mainstream in the millionare sector of society?



.

Honestly, I have no idea. My adult knowledge is limited to Toddlers and Tiaras.
I'll confess to watching that show religiously...to gain insight into dynamics of mother/daughter relationships. Lots of narcissistic moms there. All the narcissistic ones view their children as extensions of themselves ...interesting from a psychological perspective

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[otg]

Didn't Rev. Hoverstock say, that John said, "it musta been an accident" or "he didn't mean to kill her"??? Something like that... as John carried JonBenet up the steps and past him...IIRC


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I remember that from somewhere, Linda, but can't remember the exact words or who reported him saying it. Something to the effect of, "I don't think he meant to kill her." How on earth could John make that kind of assessment of the crime scene at that time with his knowledge of forensic analysis -- after just having pulled the tape from her mouth, removing one of the wrist bindings, and running up the stairs with her cold, stiff body? Strange... But unless someone can remember the source, I'll have to keep it in my "possible" column.

 

[otg]

Marilyn van Derbur, Miss America 1958, whose family was quite wealthy. her father held numerous national positions of power (such as president of the Nat'l Inter-fraternity Council: president of all the college fraternities in the US) and made generous donations to organizations such as Boy Scouts of America. living the lie that they were a close, loving, perfect family was particularly important to her mother. Marilyn was sexually abused by her father from ages 5-18. she believed that her father would have killed her if he suspected that she would reveal the abuse

Marilyn Van Derbur (Atler) was also consulted for information related to JonBenet's death:

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon37.htm

 

[Linda7NJ]

I remember that from somewhere, Linda, but can't remember the exact words or who reported him saying it. Something to the effect of, "I don't think he meant to kill her." How on earth could John make that kind of assessment of the crime scene at that time with his knowledge of forensic analysis -- after just having pulled the tape from her mouth, removing one of the wrist bindings, and running up the stairs with her cold, stiff body? Strange... But unless someone can remember the source, I'll have to keep it in my "possible" column.

I'm trying to track it down... Found this...interesting...

"One summer day in 1997 I sat beside the Ramseys in church only a few months after JonBenet’s passing. At one point, the reverend, Rol Hoverstock put his hand on John’s shoulder and compassionately whispered to him, “You’re a good man, John. I know you didn’t do this.”

Minutes later, when he walked by Patsy sitting alone in an empty pew, the two made eye contact, but instead of greeting her as he did John, he angrily looked away and drifted right past her.
That stunned me."



http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011...eys-killer-15-year-anniversary-retrospective/




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[Linda7NJ]

A week later Father Rol showed up at our headquarters. Beckner joined us in a conference room, and I asked, “Any good news?”
Rol pursed his lips and shook his head. Team Ramsey lawyer Bryan Morgan had learned of the proposal and insisted on being at any meeting between the Ramseys and the Boulder cops. The pastor said he was “reamed” by the lawyer for becoming involved and had become so annoyed with the whole process, he vented his anger on all of us. “Enough of the ********,” Rol said.
But instead of an interview, all he could now offer was a meeting over coffee in the Ramseys’ living room. “That’s unacceptable,” I said. We weren’t about to fly to Georgia for a coffee klatch with a lawyer. “We’re back to square one.”
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 284-285

Trujillo and I went over to the Peachtree Presbyterian Church to talk with the Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington the next morning. He knew the family well, had married John and Patsy, buried Beth, baptized JonBenét, and had just buried her, too. If anyone could provide us with some insight, it should be the Reverend Harrington.
The minister met us with a frosty demeanor and a curt, “I’m not sure I want to talk to you. I will tell you I will share no privileged information.”
That set me thinking about the rules of privilege, in which information can legally be kept in confidence, such as between doctor and patient or lawyer and client. Also privileged would be a confession by a parishioner to a clergyman. “Is there privileged information?” I asked.
“I won’t answer that,” Harrington said. “Do I need an attorney?”
“We’re not here as adversaries, and you’re not a suspect,” I said, hoping to smooth things out. But we had to wait around for ten minutes until both a witness and a lawyer arrived, and our brief exchange yielded little information.


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[gramcracker]

James Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 1221

Interviewed by detectives on December 30th, Father Holverstock indicated that he had been summoned to the house to help calm Patsy, and estimated that he had arrived between 6:30 and 7:00 AM. He described his observations of the activities taking place at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body.

Father Holverstock advised he had been heating a glass of water in the kitchen microwave when things began to happen. Fleet White had a look on his face that he'd "never seen before," and racing past him through the kitchen, exclaimed that JonBenet had been found.

The next thing he knew, he was standing in the foyer area near the top of the basement stairs, and John Ramsey had his daughter in his hands. It was Halverstock's recollection that Ramsey blurted out, "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blacket," or that "she was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."

Ramsey told Father Holverstock that he had taken "the tape off her mouth," and mentioned something about removing something from JonBenet's wrists or hands.

The scene was described as being "frantic" and "out of control" once JonBenet's body had been found. He did his best to lead the group in prayer after JonBenet had been moved to the floor of the living room. Father Holverstock described JonBenet's body as being cold and stiff, and that he had tried to conceal the ugly bruise on her neck by moving a blanket over her torso. He shared with the detectives that he was having a difficult time letting go of that image.

 

[gramcracker]

Father Rol's either/or wording above seems less than definitive but I also found this:

Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 1265

After JonBenet's body was found, victim advocate Grace Morlock told detectives, John Ramsey said more than once that he didn't think the kidnapper mean to kill his daughter, because she was wrapped in her blanket.

 

[MyBelle]

I'm trying to track it down... Found this...interesting...

"One summer day in 1997 I sat beside the Ramseys in church only a few months after JonBenet’s passing. At one point, the reverend, Rol Hoverstock put his hand on John’s shoulder and compassionately whispered to him, “You’re a good man, John. I know you didn’t do this.”

Minutes later, when he walked by Patsy sitting alone in an empty pew, the two made eye contact, but instead of greeting her as he did John, he angrily looked away and drifted right past her.
That stunned me."



http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011...eys-killer-15-year-anniversary-retrospective/




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That is very interesting and also a vindication of John Ramsey, imo. It is entirely possible this entire crime was the handiwork of his deeply disturbed wife and he was covering for her. How horrible for him if that is what happened.

 

[UKGuy]

Father Rol's either/or wording above seems less than definitive but I also found this:

Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 1265

gramcracker,
Very weird reasoning here, i.e. JonBenet has been visibly ligature asphyxiated, yet because a blanket is present, her death was unintentional, thats nearly as far off the rational scale as is his reasoning about the chair in front of the door?

Some of JR's comments just do not make sense.


.

 

[Linda7NJ]

James Kolar's Foreign Faction/kindle location 1221

Oh thank you!

I KNEW I read that somewhere!!!


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[gramcracker]

gramcracker,
Very weird reasoning here, i.e. JonBenet has been visibly ligature asphyxiated, yet because a blanket is present, her death was unintentional, thats nearly as far off the rational scale as is his reasoning about the chair in front of the door?

Some of JR's comments just do not make sense.

ITA. most of his comments/behaviors take on different flavors depending on how they are seasoned: what is he promoting, intruder or insider?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Father Rol's either/or wording above seems less than definitive but I also found this:



Lawrence Schiller's Perfect Murder, Perfect Town/kindle location 1265

I also remember John saying something like"_______was almost as bad as JonBenet's death. "
I just can't recall what he was specifically talking about...but comparing it to what happened to JonBenet was so shocking I had to pick my jaw up off the floor. No comparison at all, I could never imagine in a million years a parent would minimize the sexual assault, bashing of the head and strangling of his own child in such a way.

Not can I ever imagine a parent getting foggy about what the child looked like when discovered.


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[Linda7NJ]

That is very interesting and also a vindication of John Ramsey, imo. It is entirely possible this entire crime was the handiwork of his deeply disturbed wife and he was covering for her. How horrible for him if that is what happened.

How horrible for JonBenet.


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[Linda7NJ]

gramcracker,

Very weird reasoning here, i.e. JonBenet has been visibly ligature asphyxiated, yet because a blanket is present, her death was unintentional, thats nearly as far off the rational scale as is his reasoning about the chair in front of the door?



Some of JR's comments just do not make sense.





.

But they do if you consider he was covering for Burke.

Minimizing while deflecting and covering. John covered every possible angle...including lawyering up straight away.

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[MyBelle]

How horrible for JonBenet.


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Her death was horrible, I totally agree. I can't imagine any parent going through it. But I also do not see a Presbyterian pastor comforting a parent if he believes the parent was directly involved in murder. I totally agree with the writer of the editorial who observed the interaction at the church.
That is a sign that John knew Patsy was involved, any cover-up he engaged in was to protect her from prosecution and he had confided this to the pastor.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Her death was horrible, I totally agree. I can't imagine any parent going through it. But I also do not see a Presbyterian pastor comforting a parent if he believes the parent was directly involved in murder. I totally agree with the writer of the editorial who observed the interaction at the church.

That is a sign that John knew Patsy was involved, any cover-up he engaged in was to protect her from prosecution and he had confided this to the pastor.

It would be any pastors, reverends , priest job to counsel one of their flock. That's what they do. IMO they're the perfect person ...they have to keep their mouths shut.


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[Chewy]

I guess I'm confused as to why so many people don't understand why a parent who is being accused of murdering their child and eviscerated in the gossip rags and media would finally shut up and seek an attorney.

Frankly, after watching years of Dateline and Mystery 48 Hours there would be no way in hell I'd talk to the cops if I was actually accused of a crime. Even if I was innocent I'd just seek out an attorney and shut up. There have been too many cases of people convicted of crimes on circumstantial evidence coupled with statements that were taken out of context. Cops are allowed to lie straight to your face in order to try to elicit a conviction, they can drill you for hours trying "weaken your resolve" etc and then parcel together bits and pieces of "admissions" you came out with during the interview.

I still see this whole thing as a major screw up on the part of the police. They turned on John and tried to suggest that he was a conniver who outsmarted them and "tricked" the police because he was the one that found the body.

The cops should have found the body. The cops should have secured the crime scene. The cops on the scene have made statements that tap into the public suspicion of the couple but would never have been admitted into the courts.

Like this one
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uah0yURYs5w"]I Know Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey - YouTube[/ame]

This woman looks like a freakin' lunatic to me. She's crazy yet people just accept what she's saying instead of realizing she screwed up massively.


Her eyes alone indicate criminal tendencies. I don't believe a word out of this woman's mouth. She seems crazy to me. But she's accepted as some sort of an expert by some. I don't get it. SMH