Why would the Ramseys need to stage?

[CorallaroC]

Sometimes I feel the staging was for their friends and neighbors (who are called over to witness it all). Even if the R's were arrested later that day, they would still have supporters who'd believe it was a kidnapping. I think they were that concerned about their image. But then the day doesn't go as they assumed and it evolves into a plan to fool LE...?

good post Instant Proof, ty. To highlight your phrase "but then the day does not go as assumed" if it is any comfort to any of us who want justice for JonBenet at least solve the mystery of her homicide, "their day" most certainly DID NOT go as they planned, and twenty years later they still have a big problem trying to convince the outside world of their faked innocence. JMO

 

[KayCherry]

Someone mentioned blood on the blanket, but I thought we'd never been told if anything was on the blanket? I remember blood spot on the pillow? I think the person who hit her in the head also strangled her and put the duct tape on the mouth and wrist cords, probably. The only thing to stage was the note and moving the body wrapped in the blanket. That was to make it seem like she was kidnapped then murdered for some reason before being removed from the home. They may have hoped that she could be later removed from the home and not even staging that part. The note was so stupid and unbelieveable it's hard to say just what anyone was thinking with that, and is why I think the person was half drunk or high on barbituates during the phases of writing it, with possibly coming down off something towards the end. There is more facts that we've never been told, so it's hard to say for sure on anything.

Yes I so agree. Also that Patsy was still in same clothing also bothered me. Definitely "drunk" no doubt ~ annoyed, probably coming down, as you state!

 

[DeDee]

My vote for the poll that started the thread is 1), 2) and 3). I do not think that Patsy had a break with reality, although her ransom letter was very theatrical. I think she and John had no experience with true crime, and used what they had seen in movies and read in books to try and steer the investigation away from the truth. They were amateurs but the BPD were on that level too, unfortunately. No matter what they did and didn't do, Burke couldn't be charged anyway, which the DA seemed to realize rather quickly. He could have arrested JR & PR but what good would that have done, really? Then Burke would have to be put in custody and Boulder would look heartless. It was a no-win situation for all concerned.

I'm sorry for JonBenet.

Then Burke would have to be put in custody and Boulder would look heartless.

Why would the Boulder town appear heartless to arrest parents for aiding and abetting the murder of their child? A murder is a serious offense and should be held accountable to the rules of law. We should all thank our lucky stars for not possessing a murderous heart. Aiding someone to cover up criminal activities is just as meaningful, according to legal standards, by becoming accomplices in the child's death. A precious six year old beauty queen was tortured to death. I struggle to find meaningful understanding.

Wow. Just...wow. Heymom, I've said it for a long time: putting the Rs in prison would have done no one any good.

Would you kindly expound on the reason, or reasons, why you feel arresting the Rs would not have done any good? Why do you feel this crime should go unpunished?

A grand jury doesn't agree with your opinion regarding a lack of punishment even though, Lou Smit filed a lawsuit so, he could enter his fruitless Intruder Theory into the GJ record. Good Gosh A Mighty! Then, Louie sold photos of the Crime Scene for profit. I have one word for LS and it is not allowed on the board but it begins with the letter B and ends with the letter D.

 

[BBB167893]

Dave, would you kindly expound on the reason, or reasons, why you feel arresting the Rs would not have done any good? Why do you feel this crime should go unpunished?

It's complicated. I was proceeding from the idea that a) they weren't likely to commit any other crimes; and b) they were already punished enough by having to live with what they did. IOWs, I was speaking from a practical standpoint. Personally, I think there should have been some form of earthly punishment from the law.

A grand jury doesn't agree with your opinion regarding a lack of punishment even though, Lou Smit filed a lawsuit so, he could enter his fruitless Intruder Theory into the GJ record. Good Gosh A Mighty! Then, Louie sold photos of the Crime Scene for profit. I have one word for LS and it is not allowed on the board but it begins with the letter B and ends with the letter D.

I said it in the book, and it bears repeating: as far as I'm concerned, he can go to hell.

 

[Tadpole12]

hell,
https://books.google.ca/books?redir_esc=y&id=CGE5AwAAQBAJ&q=hell#v=snippet&q=hell&f=false

 

[ItzShea]

This is going to be the way I phrase my next poll.
I thought no they both were

Do you suspect the R's?

1.) YES

2.) OF COURSE

3.) YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

4.) DUH! OBVIOUSLY.

5.) YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY

6.) AFFIRMATIVE

7.) WITHOUT A DOUBT

8.) POSITIVELY

9.) CERTAINLY

People who don't accept the truth about what happened are excluded from expressing their opinion on this unbiased, neutral poll, with a margin of error of 104%.

My problem with RDI is there isn't any proof. Combine all the evidence, every bit of it, and what do we have that proves beyond a reasonable doubt, Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter?

Mostly speculation and several fibers of extremely dubious value are all there is.

I think both parents were abusing her. I’m not certain what was going on with Burke. But I know if I was a dad and my daughter was murdered in my own home, not only would I know who did it, but their body would be the next thing the police found. No way would I be arranging travel plans or vacation plans with my pilot.
B.S.
No tears or rage and grief from either parent? Just that smarmy, snarky ‘we are smarter than YOU!’ Attitude.
No baby. If I was a millionaire who was used to power and getting my own way, I would be bribing the police department and the detectives THE OTHER WAY! (Find these *advertiser censored**holes who hurt my baby daughter, and I will take care of you and your family FOR LIFE!!)
The Ramseys’ speech, actions and priorities did not reflect a couple who loved their daughter and wanted to find her killer. Linda Arnst was correct. Her first reaction was exactly right.
Maybe Patsy had multiple personalities. And the one they interviewed didn’t know what the others had done. But the father was abusing Jonbenet also. All of his body language and mannerisms prove that.
Supposedly he loved Jonbenet; and his wife was torturing and raping his daughter to the extent that the M.E.’s said, and he did not stop
it, call the police, or protect his daughter?
B.S.
She was getting old enough to talk. I believe the M.E.’s reports about Jonbenets’ condition.
That poor kid never knew what love was.

 

[ItzShea]

This is going to be the way I phrase my next poll.
I thought no they both were

Do you suspect the R's?

1.) YES

2.) OF COURSE

3.) YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT.

4.) DUH! OBVIOUSLY.

5.) YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY

6.) AFFIRMATIVE

7.) WITHOUT A DOUBT

8.) POSITIVELY

9.) CERTAINLY

People who don't accept the truth about what happened are excluded from expressing their opinion on this unbiased, neutral poll, with a margin of error of 104%.

My problem with RDI is there isn't any proof. Combine all the evidence, every bit of it, and what do we have that proves beyond a reasonable doubt, Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter?

Mostly speculation and several fibers of extremely dubious value are all there is.

I think both parents were abusing her. I’m not certain what was going on with Burke. But I know if I was a dad and my daughter was murdered in my own home, not only would I know who did it, but their body would be the next thing the police found. No way would I be arranging travel plans or vacation plans with my pilot.
B.S.
No tears or rage and grief from either parent? Just that smarmy, snarky ‘we are smarter than YOU!’ Attitude.
No baby. If I was a millionaire who was used to power and getting my own way, I would be bribing the police department and the detectives THE OTHER WAY! (Find these *advertiser censored**holes who hurt my baby daughter, and I will take care of you and your family FOR LIFE!!)
The Ramseys’ speech, actions and priorities did not reflect a couple who loved their daughter and wanted to find her killer. Linda Arnst was correct. Her first reaction was exactly right.
Maybe Patsy had multiple personalities. And the one they interviewed didn’t know what the others had done. But the father was abusing Jonbenet also. All of his body language and mannerisms prove that.
Supposedly he loved Jonbenet; and his wife was torturing and raping his daughter to the extent that the M.E.’s said, and he did not stop
it, call the police, or protect his daughter?
B.S.
She was getting old enough to talk. I believe the M.E.’s reports about Jonbenets’ condition.
That poor kid never knew what love was.

 

[UKGuy]

I think both parents were abusing her. I’m not certain what was going on with Burke. But I know if I was a dad and my daughter was murdered in my own home, not only would I know who did it, but their body would be the next thing the police found. No way would I be arranging travel plans or vacation plans with my pilot.
B.S.
No tears or rage and grief from either parent? Just that smarmy, snarky ‘we are smarter than YOU!’ Attitude.
No baby. If I was a millionaire who was used to power and getting my own way, I would be bribing the police department and the detectives THE OTHER WAY! (Find these *advertiser censored**holes who hurt my baby daughter, and I will take care of you and your family FOR LIFE!!)
The Ramseys’ speech, actions and priorities did not reflect a couple who loved their daughter and wanted to find her killer. Linda Arnst was correct. Her first reaction was exactly right.
Maybe Patsy had multiple personalities. And the one they interviewed didn’t know what the others had done. But the father was abusing Jonbenet also. All of his body language and mannerisms prove that.
Supposedly he loved Jonbenet; and his wife was torturing and raping his daughter to the extent that the M.E.’s said, and he did not stop
it, call the police, or protect his daughter?
B.S.
She was getting old enough to talk. I believe the M.E.’s reports about Jonbenets’ condition.
That poor kid never knew what love was.

ItzShea,

I think both parents were abusing her.

Yes, this could be what was going on, if the case is not BDI, and PDI looks a bit shaky on its own then both parents could explain historical injuries.

I’m not certain what was going on with Burke.

Well what if Burke was seeing a therapist regularly leading up to JonBenet's death?

How about during this same period if JonBenet was seeing a different therapist? Now what would all that be about, a 6-year girl needing a therapist, i.e. a millionaires daughter, whut?

The R's had dark secrets that they have kept close to their chest, this is why the children's medical records had an Island of confidentiality surrounding them.

.
.

 

[Amonet]

I've only just seen the poll. My thoughts on it are that it was snowy outside? (I think?) So they couldn't move Jon Benet's body without leaving tracks in the snow from their house and leading right back to it. They presumably felt JonBenet's presence would be missed, but they had to explain why she wasn't around any more. So the only place to hide the body was in the house. But if the body is in the house, how do you get the attention away from the people in the house? So there's a logical necessity to stage. Nothing about fame or anything like that, just pure desperation to not explain how JonBenet died and to attempt to make it appear as an abduction, at least as far as an abduction gone wrong and turned into a murder in the house.

If there wasn't snow on the ground, and there can't have been because LE would have had snow tracks to look for an intruder going in and out. But for me it still has to be the same explanation, that the Ramsey's felt they couldn't move the body without drawing attention onto themselves, therefore the staging became essential to make it appear, as much as possible, that LE should look for a killer outside of the family and outside of the house.

 

[Cottonstar]

I've only just seen the poll. My thoughts on it are that it was snowy outside? (I think?) So they couldn't move Jon Benet's body without leaving tracks in the snow from their house and leading right back to it. They presumably felt JonBenet's presence would be missed, but they had to explain why she wasn't around any more. So the only place to hide the body was in the house. But if the body is in the house, how do you get the attention away from the people in the house? So there's a logical necessity to stage. Nothing about fame or anything like that, just pure desperation to not explain how JonBenet died and to attempt to make it appear as an abduction, at least as far as an abduction gone wrong and turned into a murder in the house.

If there wasn't snow on the ground, and there can't have been because LE would have had snow tracks to look for an intruder going in and out. But for me it still has to be the same explanation, that the Ramsey's felt they couldn't move the body without drawing attention onto themselves, therefore the staging became essential to make it appear, as much as possible, that LE should look for a killer outside of the family and outside of the house.

Even if there was no snow on the ground, the Ramsey’s do not fit the psychological profile of being able to dump or leave her body outside in the woods etc...and exposed to the harsh winter elements. We see plenty of undoing after JonBenét’s death. Covered with a blanket, favorite nightgown, loose bindings, wiped down etc...

Had the Ramsey’s been able to get past this psychological barrier, then no doubt-anyone finding her body outside the home and stashed somewhere, would have played into a likely IDI scenario, and would have perhaps eliminated the need for a ransom note.

 

[Amonet]

Even if there was no snow on the ground, the Ramsey’s do not fit the psychological profile of being able to dump or leave her body outside in the woods etc...and exposed to the harsh winter elements. We see plenty of undoing after JonBenét’s death. Covered with a blanket, favorite nightgown, loose bindings, wiped down etc...

Had the Ramsey’s been able to get past this psychological barrier, then no doubt-anyone finding her body outside the home and stashed somewhere, would have played into a likely IDI scenario, and would have perhaps eliminated the need for a ransom note.

Thanks, that's wonderful insight!

I agree about the ransom note. To me it's just desperation staging as an attempt to deflect from inside the house and the people inside the house, and it's gone completely OTT due their state of mind. Without the body inside the house, they could have done a much better job and never considered a ransom note, at least not a ludicrously long one like that.

 

[chlban]

Thanks, that's wonderful insight!

I agree about the ransom note. To me it's just desperation staging as an attempt to deflect from inside the house and the people inside the house, and it's gone completely OTT due their state of mind. Without the body inside the house, they could have done a much better job and never considered a ransom note, at least not a ludicrously long one like that.

I am struck by the number of publicized cases in the years since her murder, where the child simply "disappears" , whether from home, a resort, or the story is the kid left for school and vanished. Whatever the story, I wonder if any of these parents actually learned a lesson from the Ramsey's really bad attempt at staging and realized no body is the way to go.

I shudder to think so, but I wonder. Seems many of gotten away with it. Of course the Ramsey's did too, but had they not been rich, I doubt if they would have.

 

[ItzShea]

At least one child lived.

 

[DeDee]

It's complicated. I was proceeding from the idea that a) they weren't likely to commit any other crimes; and b) they were already punished enough by having to live with what they did. IOWs, I was speaking from a practical standpoint. Personally, I think there should have been some form of earthly punishment from the law.

I said it in the book, and it bears repeating: as far as I'm concerned, he can go to hell.

Thank you for the reply. And, thanks also to tadpole for finding the word hell multiple times in your book.

If we line up the people who interfered with the investigation and prosecution of the Rs, what would the common denominator be? This is an incomplete list for the holidays have zapped my energy.

• Alex Hunter refused to acquire Search Warrants, disregarded evidence, refused to indict the Rs
• Law Offices of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman, Hunter supported this law firm and shared investigation data
• Governor Romer refused to appoint a Special Prosecutor
• Lt Gov Gail Schoettler, husband, Don Stevens, was a fraternity brother and longtime friend of JR
• Lou Smit called in by Hunter and supported Rs innocence

 

[k-mac]

Thank you for the reply, Dave. And, thanks also to tadpole for finding the word hell multiple times in your book.

If we line up the people who interfered with the investigation and prosecution of the Rs, what would the common denominator be? This is an incomplete list for the holidays have zapped my energy.

• Alex Hunter refused to acquire Search Warrants, disregarded evidence, refused to indict the Rs
• Law Offices of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman, Hunter supported this law firm and shared investigation data
• Governor Romer refused to appoint a Special Prosecutor
• Lt Gov Gail Schoettler, husband, Don Stevens, was a fraternity brother and longtime friend of JR
• Lou Smit called in by Hunter and supported Rs innocence

miss lacey is worthy of a mention for keeping the dream alive and pretty much creating the frenzy that the dna was an exoneration . she in my book has done the most damage to the general consensus of the case.

and look I think linda arnt deserves a mention although unintentionally, interfered and stuffed up the whole shebang by not securing the area or keeping the immediate players in a secure watched area. and later giving the ramseys what ever they wanted to know.

 

[DeDee]

Thank you, k-mac. Duh! Of course, ML needs to be on the list of those who thwarted the murder investigation. Still seeking the common denominator. What, um, secret do these people have to hide?

Let's not allow Lou praying with the Rs enter the equation. Things are not always what they seem.

<>self edited

If we line up the people who interfered with the investigation and prosecution of the Rs, what would the common denominator be?

• Alex Hunter refused to acquire Search Warrants, disregarded evidence, refused to indict the Rs
• Law Offices of Haddon, Morgan & Foreman, Hunter supported this law firm and shared investigation data
• Governor Romer refused to appoint a Special Prosecutor
• Lt Gov Gail Schoettler, husband, Don Stevens, was a fraternity brother and longtime friend of JR
• Lou Smit called in by Hunter and supported Rs innocence
• Mary Lacy issued a public apology exonerating the Rs.

"It is the responsibility of every prosecutor to seek justice. That responsibility includes seeking justice for people whose reputations and lives can be damaged irreparably by the lingering specter of suspicion. In a highly publicized case, the detrimental impact of publicity and suspicion on people’s lives can be extreme. The suspicions about the Ramseys in this case created an ongoing living hell for the Ramsey family and their friends, which added to their suffering from the unexplained and devastating loss of JonBenet."

"Here’s what I was doing with the exoneration letter," Lacy explained. "I was trying to prevent a horrible travesty of justice. I was scared to death that despite the fact that there was no evidence, no psychopathy and no motive, the case was a train going down the track and the Ramseys were tied to that track."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/da-opens-cleared-ramsey-family-jonbenets-murder/story?id=43106426

LA was in over her head. I recall she met someone in LE on her way to the Rs who passed her a manual on how to handle a kidnapping situation. It is my opinion that LA did not purposefully and with full knowledge intend to derail the investigation whereas, Donald phoned JR on the 26th and several times following the 26th to offer support.

 

[Sylvia Vancouver]

Luka Magnotta-JonBenet Ramsey Case Connection

https://plus.google.com/u/0/111137528330881083793

 

[k-mac]

Thank you, k-mac. Duh! Of course, ML needs to be on the list of those who thwarted the murder investigation. Still seeking the common denominator. What, um, secret do these people have to hide?

don't even start me on trip Demuth :scared:

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/30atrip.html

one great big boys club. the whole lot of them.

exception of steve Thomas of course ...look where it got him :gaah:

 

[Amonet]

I am struck by the number of publicized cases in the years since her murder, where the child simply "disappears" , whether from home, a resort, or the story is the kid left for school and vanished. Whatever the story, I wonder if any of these parents actually learned a lesson from the Ramsey's really bad attempt at staging and realized no body is the way to go.

I shudder to think so, but I wonder. Seems many of gotten away with it. Of course the Ramsey's did too, but had they not been rich, I doubt if they would have.

I can't imagine what would be going through someone's mind at the moment their child is dead and they decide upon a cover-up.

But Shannon Matthews mother held up a teddy bear in a press conference (and maybe other media things) in a parody of the McCanns and Madeleine's cuddly toy cat. Although the Shannon Matthews case is very different, it does suggest that things can be learned by what has been seen in the news and in the papers from previous cases.

But, on the other hand, I don't have any recollections of cases prior to JonBenet's where parents were implicated to have any comparison. I think the age of the Ramseys also has something to do with the fake kidnapping scenario...kidnappings and ransom notes don't happen so much nowadays as say in the 1970s, so it's not going to be as much of an influence on people who are now in their 20s and 30s.

I don't know what part money plays in these things, but another thing to consider is that a court case would really be based on the idea that an intruder/kidnapper is nonsense rather than on hard evidence pointing to the Ramseys. There would still be a large risk of them walking, which probably isn't going to be an attractive risk to a DA if the DA perceives public opinion to be split and if the truth turns out to be like a Greek Tragedy, then maybe there's a perceived risk of ending up with people feeling sorry for the Ramseys?

 

[chlban]

I can't imagine what would be going through someone's mind at the moment their child is dead and they decide upon a cover-up.

But Shannon Matthews mother held up a teddy bear in a press conference (and maybe other media things) in a parody of the McCanns and Madeleine's cuddly toy cat. Although the Shannon Matthews case is very different, it does suggest that things can be learned by what has been seen in the news and in the papers from previous cases.

But, on the other hand, I don't have any recollections of cases prior to JonBenet's where parents were implicated to have any comparison. I think the age of the Ramseys also has something to do with the fake kidnapping scenario...kidnappings and ransom notes don't happen so much nowadays as say in the 1970s, so it's not going to be as much of an influence on people who are now in their 20s and 30s.

I don't know what part money plays in these things, but another thing to consider is that a court case would really be based on the idea that an intruder/kidnapper is nonsense rather than on hard evidence pointing to the Ramseys. There would still be a large risk of them walking, which probably isn't going to be an attractive risk to a DA if the DA perceives public opinion to be split and if the truth turns out to be like a Greek Tragedy, then maybe there's a perceived risk of ending up with people feeling sorry for the Ramseys?

I don't think the kidnapping scenario is far fetched at all, especially considering the pageant exposure. The first obvious flaw though is that the body was in the house so a "kidnapper" would have to assume it wasn't going to be found. Then, of course the Ramseys complete disregard for the instructions about contacting anyone. The police would be understandable, but inviting half of Boulder over, when a kidnapper is supposedly watching your every move, is ludicrous. Then, of course there is the overly dramatic and completely off the wall ransom note. Kidnapper in the house, could be discovered at any moment and decides to write the War and Peace of Ransom Notes. Then, on his/her way out, forgets to take the body.

I do understand why a conviction would never have happened though, since RDI would not be an option. The jury would be forced to determine the particular Ramsey, or Ramseys, on trial was guilty and Burke could not be tried. So, no conviction.

IMO. There is reasonable doubt as to which Ramsey. There is absolutely no reasonable doubt of RDI.