GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #1

[Gardenlady]

While I agree with those who think the girls should have had an adult present during interrogation, in this case it is a non issue. They were caught with the weapons and the victim is alive and capable of testifying. If anything, the confessions can help the girls get some sort of insanity or diminished capacity defense. If they throw that out and the judge rules no mention of Slenderman, then you are left with two girls, a bloody knife and a victim testifying that they did it with no provocation.

I do not care if their brains are still growing. I do not care how this is identified (mental illness/ evil/ bad parenting/ delusional). Even with their undeveloped brains, they understood it was wrong. They had no remorse. That is enough for me to want them put away for quite a while.

Truly, I really don't see how girls like this can get "better" or become active member of society. I don't care if others have done it in the past. Statistically, violent offenders are very likely to repeat their crime. This isn't someone who robbed a convenience store and shot the clerk in the process. A gun goes off and they panic and run away. That is someone I believe could "recover" if they wanted to.

These are girls who planned this for months. One girl freaked out and couldn't go through with it at first, but she wanted to do this so much that she was able to calm herself down enough to go through with it. The poor child was stabbed over a dozen times. After each thrust, the stabber could have stopped, the other girl could have run away for help. Neither did. They told the girl to lie down so she would die. Then they walked away. How do you become a member of society after that?

How can you develop empathy when you have none for your friend as she screams out in terror and pain? And then leave her to die?

Regarding your last paragraph, I was just reading a study the other day that looked into sociopaths and empathy, and how they ARE able to empathize when asked to; the researchers said how this can open up therapy avenues for such people:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263964.php



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[Ausgirl]

It truly makes me sad to see the pitchforks come out for two 12 year olds.

Should they be punished? Heck yes. I think they should be incarcerated for a long, long time.

I just don't get that people "don't care" about this or that fact which offers explanation for their behaviour, and are all out for blood, rah rah. It's just distasteful to see website after website filled with hatred and "put them down" and "throw away the key" and "they'll never be rehabilitated".

I find it a bit revolting, really, especially when people claim to be compassionate. The fact is, these kids *will* get out and probably before they're 35. So is it not better to hope they can be helped, if not out of the kindness of your heart than just for the safety of the people they'll be mingling with after release?

Having compassion for child criminals also doesn't mean lack of compassion for the victim, are people so desperate to feel morally superior that they can't understand that?

I find these kids scary. I also find the depth of hatred for them among the adult public scary.

 

[blue22]

Regarding your last paragraph, I was just reading a study the other day that looked into sociopaths and empathy, and how they ARE able to empathize when asked to; the researchers said how this can open up therapy avenues for such people:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263964.php



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No that I am saying i have an opinion on whether these girls are either, but that study was about psychopaths. Psychopaths and sociopaths are very different. I also think that it would take actual human study groups (people convicted of murder, etc) to legitimize that study. That study is just the very beginning, I hope they keep going further with long term human behavior studies.

 

[Gardenlady]

Adolescents also engage in what is referred to as "magical thinking" and "imagined audience" its a mark of that time in human development.


The above is an abstract from an article in the British Journal of Developmental Psychology.

I'll see if I can find another scholarly resource that talks about it. Notice the correlation to magical thinking and obsessive thinking.

Imagined audience also takes place in about the same developmental period as the Personal Fable, I think - which due to the egocentric nature of the early adolescent can lead to feelings of invulnerability and over-importance.

Adolescence is truly a toxic swamp for the mind lol.


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[ellemo]

RSBM

The only reason that I feel that this is not a "non issue" is because when a law is questionable pertaining to constitutional rights, that means that my rights, your rights, all of our rights are potentially at risk. I am thinking of other cases, other children that may find themselves in this position and may be innocent, they should have adult representation regardless before waiving anything. It happened to work to our benefit in this case but that doesn't make it a non issue for the future.

The Central Park Five case and The West Memphis Three have proved that.

I was not arguing law theory at all. I meant it was a non-issue in terms of prosecuting these girls in this particular case. If the confessions were to get thrown out, the cops would still have the weapon in the possession of at least one of the girls, the victim could testify about what happened and since these were her friends their is no worries of misidentifying anyone, the stab wounds were excessive and the other girls had no wounds so that rules our any story they could concoct about self defense. All they need to do is prove the knife came from the one girl's house to prove premeditation.

 

[Celeste]

Regarding your last paragraph, I was just reading a study the other day that looked into sociopaths and empathy, and how they ARE able to empathize when asked to; the researchers said how this can open up therapy avenues for such people:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263964.php



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"Psychopathy may not be so much the incapacity to empathize, but a reduced propensity to empathize, paired with a preserved capacity to empathize when required to do so."

That is SUCH an interesting article! So these guys might be able to make the CHOICE to just turn their empathy on and off at will? That changes the conversation totally, imo.

 

[Ausgirl]

Regarding your last paragraph, I was just reading a study the other day that looked into sociopaths and empathy, and how they ARE able to empathize when asked to; the researchers said how this can open up therapy avenues for such people:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263964.php

Hiya GL. I thought that was a great article, read it the other day.

 

[Gardenlady]

No that I am saying i have an opinion on whether these girls are either, but that study was about psychopaths. Psychopaths and sociopaths are very different. I also think that it would take actual human study groups (people convicted of murder, etc) to legitimize that study. That study is just the very beginning, I hope they keep going further with long term human behavior studies.

Sorry yes I put sociopaths. Really what I should have said was this study would seem to hold promise for any subset of people who are thought to lack or have difficulty with empathy.


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[blue22]

It truly makes me sad to see the pitchforks come out for two 12 year olds.

Should they be punished? Heck yes. I think they should be incarcerated for a long, long time.

I just don't get that people "don't care" about this or that fact which offers explanation for their behaviour, and are all out for blood, rah rah. It's just distasteful to see website after website filled with hatred and "put them down" and "throw away the key" and "they'll never be rehabilitated".

I find it a bit revolting, really, especially when people claim to be compassionate. The fact is, these kids *will* get out and probably before they're 35. So is it not better to hope they can be helped, if not out of the kindness of your heart than just for the safety of the people they'll be mingling with after release?

Having compassion for child criminals also doesn't mean lack of compassion for the victim, are people so desperate to feel morally superior that they can't understand that?

I find these kids scary. I also find the depth of hatred for them among the adult public scary.

I think there is a massive difference between not feeling sorry for them, and hating them. I certainly don't hate them, but I certainly don't feel sorry for them.
If they get a full conviction, I'm not so sure they would get out before 35. They will likely be required to serve more of their sentence. We wouldn't know that until the penalty phase. And...I happen to think that serving a full 65 year sentence, is appropriate. That feeling does not come from a place of hatred, but a place of justice for the victim.

 

[Ausgirl]

Psychopaths and sociopaths are very different.

No, they're not. They're *exactly* the same. It's just two terms for the same thing. True fact.

 

[blue22]

Sorry yes I put sociopaths. Really what I should have said was this study would seem to hold promise for any subset of people who are thought to lack or have difficulty with empathy.


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I agree. I really hope it's continued, because there are a lot of people like this out there. We would be better as a society, if there was a conclusive way to rehabilitate and teach empathy.

 

[blue22]

No, they're not. They're *exactly* the same. It's just two terms for the same thing. True fact.

Lol...that is so incredibly not true. While psychologists can't always agree on the degree of exact differences, there are differences that are generally agreed upon.

 

[Gardenlady]

It truly makes me sad to see the pitchforks come out for two 12 year olds.

Should they be punished? Heck yes. I think they should be incarcerated for a long, long time.

I just don't get that people "don't care" about this or that fact which offers explanation for their behaviour, and are all out for blood, rah rah. It's just distasteful to see website after website filled with hatred and "put them down" and "throw away the key" and "they'll never be rehabilitated".

I find it a bit revolting, really, especially when people claim to be compassionate. The fact is, these kids *will* get out and probably before they're 35. So is it not better to hope they can be helped, if not out of the kindness of your heart than just for the safety of the people they'll be mingling with after release?

Having compassion for child criminals also doesn't mean lack of compassion for the victim, are people so desperate to feel morally superior that they can't understand that?

I find these kids scary. I also find the depth of hatred for them among the adult public scary.

Great post! Whenever I see people say things like "I'll save my sympathy/compassion for the victim only!" It always puzzles me, because it's not like there is a finite supply of sympathy or compassion in the world that we can "use up", and suddenly it will be gone, so we must prioritize our feelings! hoh: What a strange and difficult undertaking it would be to live in such a way.

And yes, talking about "putting down" 12 year olds, or calling children worthless is pretty damn scary.


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[Gardenlady]

Lol...that is so incredibly not true. While psychologists can't always agree on the degree of exact differences, there are differences that are generally agreed upon.

I have read lots of dispute on this - some will swear there is a difference, others say there are not. I have not kept up, but you two have lots of good company in this particular debate on both sides lol.


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[appleeye]

I don't think many have pitch forks out for these two but I won't lie, I don't think that them being out of jail ever is a good thing. I do *NOT* want them dead.

I think it is owed to their victim that they get a very long sentence.

 

[Ausgirl]

So these guys might be able to make the CHOICE to just turn their empathy on and off at will? That changes the conversation totally, imo.

I don't believe it's as simple as that. The sociopaths (I like that term better than the others for this condition even if it's outdated) I know -- and I do know a couple of classic ones, who are not criminally inclined -- can *pretend* to have compassion, but don't actually feel any. But there's some borderline ones (these are all writers, btw, sociopaths make wonderful authors and better editors..) who I think do have compassion for some things, but not most things that fully-emotional people would do. So it might not be black and white, like that. I actually think it really isn't at all.

I also think there's a difference between 'empathy' (understanding that someone's hurting) and 'compassion' (feeling sympathy for them)

 

[TrackerSam]

To me, this is the part that I am not understanding. I get that they were read their Miranda rights, I do hope that there was a social worker or something present that would be able to help them to understand what was being asked of them. I would hate for a case to hinge on something like that. People have gotten off for less, right?

I am wondering if they didn't understand their rights and confessed, if their confessions could be thrown out? I don't fully understand American Law so this is a genuine question.

They don't need the confessions, the victim lived.

 

[Ausgirl]

Lol...that is so incredibly not true. While psychologists can't always agree on the degree of exact differences, there are differences that are generally agreed upon.

Have you a link?

 

[blue22]

Great post! Whenever I see people say things like "I'll save my sympathy/compassion for the victim only!" It always puzzles me, because it's not like there is a finite supply of sympathy or compassion in the world that we can "use up", and suddenly it will be gone, so we must prioritize our feelings! hoh: What a strange and difficult undertaking it would be to live in such a way.

And yes, talking about "putting down" 12 year olds, or calling children worthless is pretty damn scary.


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Wow, I must have missed this. I didn't see anything about putting them down here.

 

[Sonya610]

It's just distasteful to see website after website filled with hatred and "put them down" and "throw away the key" and "they'll never be rehabilitated".

Actually it seems to me those phrases are quite restrained BECAUSE of the assailants ages.

"Put them down" is not at all like the terms that would be used for adult wannabe killers that stabbed an innocent trusting 12 year old girl 19 times in then told her to "lay still and quiet so you don't bleed to fast, we will get help" so she would die queitly.

"Put them down" infers don't make them suffer.