GUILTY WI - 12-Year-Old Girls Stab Friend 19 Times for Slenderman, Waukesha, 31 May 2014 #2

[ICS]

But compare the two sets of 'footprints' and there's a HUGE difference between them isn't there? In terms of tone, enjoyment of violent content, etc.

While I'd looked at the two in some depth, I'd not done so side-by-side. You're right - there is some dark stuff/thoughts in big sis's likes and musings. And fair enough, she's had a rough time of it as I mentioned earlier. I get the faint impression that AW looks up to her sister. Don't see any indication its reciprocated necessarily.

I do think big bro is trying to keep big sis out of it. It took a bit of digging to find her. If she was the one who introduced AW to CreepyPasta - which seems highly probable as its all over her Tumblr - she may well NOT want that to become known even though she (presumably) couldn't have known what it would lead to. Big bro's Daily Mail interview contains

... Personally, I think she found Slenderman on YouTube, took an interest and then read up on it.

Odd wording intended to explicitly suggest that he himself doesn't know, and he's not responding to a specific question about how AW learned of CreepyPasta.

The one thing I do find troubling though is the question, apparently from big sis, about becoming a proxy. The timing puts it around the time when talk of proxies arose in the suspects statements. I also wonder where the Nicolet forest idea came from. The complaint suggests it was external input:

...they learned he lived in a mansion in the Nicolet National Park which they discovered was in Wisconsin...

"To me, "learned" and "discovered" meant either they read it somewhere, or someone informed them privately. Seems a bit of a coincidence it would be in their own state, suggesting the source knew where they lived.

Aside from the awfulness of the act, I've been troubled by the feeling that there are other people that were aware of this before it happened. It just seems too much of a leap to go from "good kids never any trouble" to... this. Ironically, the person whose testimony is the most likely to help the suspects' cases is PL, especially regarding MG. If there is a history of strange behavior and obsessional/delusional beliefs, it supports MG's attorney's assertion. I'm hopeful that the forensic psych will get this.

I will continue to dig.

 

[ICS]

On reddit, someone suggested this CreepyPasta was somewhat similar:

(warning: has some creepy stuff in it)

http://creepypasta.wikia.com/wiki/It_Will_Be_So_Much_Worse

 

[Ausgirl]

The one thing I do find troubling though is the question, apparently from big sis, about becoming a proxy. The timing puts it around the time when talk of proxies arose in the suspects statements. I also wonder where the Nicolet forest idea came from. The complaint suggests it was external input:

"To me, "learned" and "discovered" meant either they read it somewhere, or someone informed them privately. Seems a bit of a coincidence it would be in their own state, suggesting the source knew where they lived.

Aside from the awfulness of the act, I've been troubled by the feeling that there are other people that were aware of this before it happened. It just seems too much of a leap to go from "good kids never any trouble" to... this.

We are clearly on the same page, here.

 

[momrids6]

Preteens charged in stabbing plot to be in court The Associated Press
1 hour ago

WEST BEND, Wis. (AP) — Two 12-year-old Wisconsin girls accused of stabbing and nearly killing a classmate to curry favor with a fictional online character are due back in court Wednesday.


Attorneys are expected to discuss the results of a mental health evaluation done on one of the girls.


http://portal.tds.net/news/read/cat...ns_charged_in_stabbing_plot_to_be_in_court-ap

 

[AnaTeresa]

Completely off-topic, sorry, but perhaps of interest to some.... I have a little experience with the concept of the tulpa.

Many years ago now, I had a gathering of friends in my living room, and we somehow got around to discussing the idea of the tulpa - and then went about trying to create one (or, more properly, a simple thought form, as 'tulpa' to us implied some of sort of vestigal sentience...and we were dumb kids, but not *that* dumb..). ANYway. We 'created' a very basic ball of energy in the middle of the room. It was quite fun, and we weren't really that invested in believing any of us had the wherewithal to actually create anything substantial.

Then my flatmate barged into the room to retrieve something of his.. walked right through the spot where we'd made the 'ball' -- stopped a step or two beyond it, shuddered and looked around at us like a cat stuck in a roomful of dogs. "The hell are you people *doing* in here?!" He apparently felt himself passing through 'something' that made him feel momentarily quite uncomfortable.

Which set us off on massive speculations regarding the origins of some of those very well-recorded instances of poltergeist activity, lalala. As well as particle theory and all sorts..

Spooky lot, we were.

Back on topic --- the addition of the tulpa idea to the whole Slenderman mythos does give it legs as far as plausibility goes, in that anything stemming from venerable and 'mysterious' cultures gives cred to a lot of suspended disbelief in horror (which some might take too far -- once more, I point out that there are *many* people in the world who actually believe the Necronomicon is a real book, written by a real 'mad arab'). In Slenderman's case, it's a genius way to bypass the whole 'it was made up for a website competition' thing.

WHY would you do that? I just - the last thing I could ever sit down and decide to do would be "hey, let's create a demon!" But I am a scaredy cat, and have dealt with too much creepy things at my own home. I hope you blessed your house after that! Clean that negative energy up. Scary, scary.

 

[ICS]

Doctors hired by family and the state agreed:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/preteens-charged-stabbing-plot-court-24392818

 

[ICS]

Saw this in the latest entries for both suspects - in Wisconsin documents for almost all cases are public record and is available online.

Outcome of defense attorneys' request for discovery

This hearing was primarily about discovery (the suspects' attorneys wanted the state to share its evidence BEFORE the preliminary hearing/reverse waiver hearing).

State has already provided discovery. Court considers matter resolved.

Update for MG

Now that MG has been found currently incompetent to stand trial, there is the question of whether this is due to a specific illness:

State requests an evaluation for mental disease or defect.

The defense objected, but the state prevailed, and MG will be evaluated, the report to be sealed.

Update for AW

AW's defense is reserving the ability to raise competency, and requested a review date for all evidence.

Next hearing

The next hearing will be 8/1 for discussion of MG's evaluation for mental illness, and to review the state's evidence .

 

[Ausgirl]

WHY would you do that? I just - the last thing I could ever sit down and decide to do would be "hey, let's create a demon!" But I am a scaredy cat, and have dealt with too much creepy things at my own home. I hope you blessed your house after that! Clean that negative energy up. Scary, scary.

a/ I'm not a Christian. Demons and that sort of fearful thinking aren't a big concern for me, just not part of my core beliefs. We certainly did, and said to ourselves, nothing of the kind - that would be sort of mental.

b/ it was a ball. An imaginary one. Nothing negative about it.

Back on topic.....

Thanks for the links, ICS and momrid6. Looks like AW and MG might be tried in different courts entirely..?

Court proceedings typically halt once a defendant is found incompetent to allow time for treatment. However, Cotton had filed a motion Monday asking the judge to allow pretrial proceedings in his client's case to continue even if she is found incompetent.

One thing that could be addressed while she is in a hospital is a yet-to-be-filed request to move her case to juvenile court, Cotton said.

 

[AnaTeresa]

a/ I'm not a Christian. Demons and that sort of fearful thinking aren't a big concern for me, just not part of my core beliefs. We certainly did, and said to ourselves, nothing of the kind - that would be sort of mental.

b/ it was a ball. An imaginary one. Nothing negative about it.

Back on topic.....

Thanks for the links, ICS and momrid6. Looks like AW and MG might be tried in different courts entirely..?

Court proceedings typically halt once a defendant is found incompetent to allow time for treatment. However, Cotton had filed a motion Monday asking the judge to allow pretrial proceedings in his client's case to continue even if she is found incompetent.

One thing that could be addressed while she is in a hospital is a yet-to-be-filed request to move her case to juvenile court, Cotton said.

Just a quick note - you don't have to be Christian to believe in demons or negative energy, or bless your house. Salt and sage can work just as well as holy water.

Incompetency wouldn't automatically move it to juvenile court so I think that's why the attorney hopes for pretrial to continue, as a way to continue to advocate a move to juvenile court while treatment commences to try and restore MG to competency.

I'm surprised how quickly they found her incompetent. She must be having a very serious break from reality or other significant, readily apparent issues. It took a lot longer for the evaluators to decide whether our client was competent.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Great news (I think) that the State and Defence agree that MG is incompetent to stand trial. Maybe this case will be moved to juvenile court and she can get the help she needs.

 

[ICS]

Thanks for the links, ICS and momrid6. Looks like AW and MG might be tried in different courts entirely..?

It looks like there was no argument from the state that MG was not competent to stand trial. I assume the reports from the two doctors (one hired by MG's defense, the other by the state) left no doubt that MG is not currently fit to stand trial.

Mental illness notwithstanding, there was a chain of events that led to the decision to kill someone - that someone being PL. Much of the case will hinge on whether the suspects' decision to do this was intrinsic - all their own work - or influenced externally in some way. This is going to be really important for AW in particular, because she allegedly brought up the requirement to kill someone (to become a proxy), and the consequences for failing to do so, while her friend apparently has mental illness issues.

As I've stated before - I feel there were other people aware of the girls' obsession that may in some way have "guided" their thinking, either as a "prank" or with a specific goal. That guidance might have been from say, someone posing as Slender Man himself:

1. I have been watching you. Join me and become a proxy!

We know that MG had been having Slender Man dreams, and that AW had introduced CreepyPasta to her. MG believed she could "see him when other people can't". (Another common theme in the Slender Man fan fiction is "Slender love stories" in which the writer and Slendy become an item. Yes, really!!)

2. To be worthy of becoming a proxy you must prove your worth by killing someone

In many stories there are "killers" and "proxies", this trio (with Slender Man at the top) is a staple of a lot of fan fiction. AW said in her statement:

"...in order to be a proxy you needed to kill a person..."

3. You must kill someone you care about, or it doesn't count

The story I linked to yesterday suggests this (kill the sister as a sacrifice, or the whole family gets it). Aside from MG's family, PL was her best friend. AW claimed to be shocked by MG's suggestion to kill PL, but evidently believed that IF they could do it, she would both meet Slender Man and prove his existence to others.

AW seemed to have thought about Slender Man in positive terms. I got this from a comment she made about a video in which she was indignant about Slender Man being portrayed as a pedophile:

The only reason I kinda don't love it is because slender is supposed to be a pedophile... WHICH HE IS NOT!!!

The fact that the friend was invited - and came - to the sleepover suggests that there was no enmity between them. In other words, PL was still her best friend even though it was "necessary" to kill her. MG said:

"It seemed necessary"

In AW's statement:

"W said she felt she had to physically kill someone"

MG's illness may have made it possible to compartmentalize the planned killing of her friend. I feel certain PL was well aware of MG's bizarre obsession and may have even heard her say that to become a Slender proxy it was necessary to kill someone to the point of her wondering about her own safety. ("I hate you! I trusted you!")

4. Do not fail me, or I will come after you AND your family! In MG's statement she claimed that AW said:

"...they had to [kill someone] or he would kill our family. When asked who he was G stated she did not know him."

What did this mean - if she'd meant Slender Man, wouldn't she have said so?

5. Once you've done the deed, you'll be able to join me at Slender Ranch in the Nicolet National Forest

A mansion in the forest is where the "CreepyPasta Gang" live with Slender Man, and the lucky few that prove their worth get to live there. However, the specific naming of Nicolet - which the girls had apparently never heard of - is written nowhere in either the mythos or fan fiction.

Susceptibility

To a couple of susceptible kids, one lonely perhaps and the other with mental issues, it wouldn't take much to convince them they had a direct line to Slender Man, a secret privilege that very few people ever receive. It would be easy to find out numerous facts about them from Internet (that they had put there) without them realizing it, using a little social engineering to add additional legitimacy.

And of course I could be TOTALLY wrong, but thinking these things through does sometimes lead to truth even if the original theory was wrong ;-)

 

[Ausgirl]

And of course I could be TOTALLY wrong, but thinking these things through does sometimes lead to truth even if the original theory was wrong ;-)

I'm a great believer in thinking through all the angles, it's helped me a great deal in various cases I've sleuthed in the past. On occasion, it's helped bust through some truly stonewalled parts of a case, so I am all for it!

Point 4, you made above - that's pretty interesting. Reading between the lines, I have to wonder who she meant, also - if Slenderman, why not just throw the name out there, as she had everywhere else... Very good point!

Of course, we are never going to see all the evidence in the case, but I do think (and have from the get-go) that a glimpse between the lines does suggest the possibility of third party interference, either direct and deliberate or otherwise (with tragic consequences). ICS's observations tend to support this theory.

I wonder if any of this will come up in court?

Mrs G - I agree, help is what she needs for sure. I'm not sure how that works though - will she get treatment in order to be fit to stand trial? Ie, once she's stable, will she have to go to trial as 'sane'? What if that takes years, and she's no longer 12...


AnaTeresa - I took your initial post to me as being a bit weird and vaguely insulting. Where, on reflection, I could possibly have taken it as an expression of genuine (if unnecessary) concern - so that's how I'll see it. And for that - I thank you. :hug:

 

[ICS]

Hadn't noticed this comment by AW on a YouTube video in which "Zeus", a pet serval cat kills and eats a live mouse (it starts out as a live mouse at least). Almost all of the 2700 comments are discussing whether this was cruel or not, or should have been uploaded.

AW's comment:

I love how Zeus beats the mouse to death...

...and then...

Also quick note for you people who say "that's cruel" and such. It's a WILD KITTEN ATTACKING A MOUSE hence the title! Duh!
Plus it's nature! God like she said, "It's the circle of life."

The second comment is OK I guess, but the first is deeply troubling as though she is watching some kind of entertainment. Cruelty to animals is frequently seen as an early indication of psychopathy.

Of course, we are never going to see all the evidence in the case, but I do think (and have from the get-go) that a glimpse between the lines does suggest the possibility of third party interference, either direct and deliberate or otherwise (with tragic consequences). ICS's observations tend to support this theory.

I wonder if any of this will come up in court?

Given the technology-related nature of this crime, I imagine that ALL computers, laptops, tablets, phones and so on will have been taken away for analysis. In addition, web site owners may have been issued with subpoenas for images of their server contents - in particular - forum posts. I've already hit a ton of dead links while researching this.

The prosecution may attempt to discount the Slender Man stuff as a smoke screen prepared by the suspects in the event of arrest. The defense would seek to show a deep and long-standing obsession. The Internet evidence will be vital to demonstrating that, while a lack of it would indicate the opposite.

Regarding external influence, another possibility is that AW idolized big sis who seems to be heavily involved with ARGs, RPGs, Internet activism (e.g. Anonymous) and creepy stuff including CreepyPasta... serious escapism. But AW misinterpreted big sis's interest as really real, and has impaired capacity - as big bro said - to discern fact from fiction. The result may have been "Holy **$$##!! I never dreamed she'd take that stuff seriously!" Big bro just didn't come across as appropriately shocked by events. This may be grossly unfair, but the interview he gave the UK Daily Mail made him sound glib, and as if what had happened wasn't really a complete surprise.

I don't think AW would have acted on her own or in combination with a different friend. I'm sure she was delighted to have a confidant living very close who attended the same school, and appreciated the same non-mainstream culture. But she unwittingly put MG on a path that would make her deadly. Perhaps AW's extreme escapism was a result of losing attachment figures (mother and sister both living elsewhere), while MG was developing, say, schizophrenia or the like.

I think the state will have a hard time showing this to be some kind of "mundane" murder attempt resulting from a vendetta of some kind.

 

[ICS]

The mental exam was to determine the mental state of MG at the time of the stabbing. Her attorney objected because a plea has not yet been entered, and questioning MG about the event would violate her 5th amendment right against self-incrimination.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/waukes...ender-man-stabbing-b99307358z1-266289441.html

 

[Ypsiowns]

From what I can tell, the Ohio event happened -before- the Wisconsin attack, but the mother only noticed the Slenderman/demon art after she saw that on the news. :facepalm:

The demon pictured in the article, mind you, is bright pink and anime-cute. Hardly cause to reach for the exorcism hotline.

This is something I know, from personal experience: horror-art and dark themed books and films can actually be very therapeutic for troubled kids, too. It's a way of expressing all the fear and horror inside, and making it something creative and positive. It was my crutch, through my horrible childhood. I hate to think where I'd have been without that creative outlet.

But yeah, mentally ill children need to be supervised. That's a whole different kettle of fish.

Yes. I agree!
I was one of those people reading all the Creepypasta posts, but I knew the difference. Most people who visit that sight understand that it is all FICTION, There are warnings saying none of this is real, this is a sight for young people to express their creativity through writing. Yes, It is more of a morbid sight for young kids, but like I said I'll admit to being a regular on the sight. Now, I personally think that one of the girls is mentally unstable, she really didn't know what was happening, or she did, but reality hasn't hit her yet. The friend who helped her, I think she didn't really want to go along with it, BUT, at that age, you will do ANYTHING to keep a friend. Personally, When I was 8, My friend told me she wouldn't talk to me anymore if i didn't take some medicine for my attitude, which was ex lax, and yep, we ate the entire package. Not as bad as stabbing someone, but the same concept, you are just starting to wonder your place, and it's an awkward age. I do hope that she is at least institutionalized, and they can figure out her mental issues and help her.

 

[Ypsiowns]

It came from 4 Chan where members were posting about sending it to the family of the attackers. See half way down this thread: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/...start=90&sid=c500ac30f2a5abfd4b48d5781999748e

I really hope that these people are being searched and charged as well, It takes 2 to tango, if these people on forum sites were sending letters to them egging them on, they should take responsibility as well.

 

[ICS]

I really hope that these people are being searched and charged as well, It takes 2 to tango, if these people on forum sites were sending letters to them egging them on, they should take responsibility as well.

Unfortunately, it may not be possible to trace the original poster(s) without considerable effort, if at all, particularly if a conscious effort was made to conceal their identity.

I was one of those people reading all the Creepypasta posts, but I knew the difference. Most people who visit that sight understand that it is all FICTION

I think the difference in this case is what the kids are believing... its not so much about believing in Slender Man, as opposed to believing in the power of belief itself. This is evident when reading kids are posting, in which they are advised of the dangers of even thinking about Slender Man stalking them... or it will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

AW's defense is going to have a hard time unless AW also turns out to have mental issues, even if third-party involvement is discovered. Absent mental issues, she could have put a stop to the plot at any time. The most believable reason that she did not do so is that she wanted to maintain her close friendship and secret with MG for as long as possible, and that meant going along with the plan. Ultimately though, she failed to act when she REALLY saw that MG was intending to kill PL. "...I thought dear God, this was really happening..."

If I wanted to poke a hole in my belief in third-party involvement, it would be that there were no outward signs of stress that one assumes would have come from being forced to make a choice of killing a friend or having one's family killed. I think that the more likely reason may simply be the combination of the two girls at a time when one was feeling isolation and perhaps rejection, and the other was suffering from worsening psychosis. I have a hard time however, calling this "premeditated", which requires a logical plan: living in a forest with a mythical creature that one gets to meet by killing someone is not logical.

 

[ICS]

1. Knives.

a. The last paragraph of the complaint states that AW's father said he was missing a 2 1/2" knife. Does this mean that AW already had a knife?

b. The same paragraph states that a 5" knife was found in AW's backpack, not the purse that MG had taken from her mother. Is this the same 5" knife used for the attack - or yet another one??

2. Third-party involvement.

a. Could the third party actually have been AW? Bear with me here...

- Assume AW had a desire to get PL out of the picture and have M.G. as an exclusive best friend
- Assume that PL did NOT share the interest in Slender Man, perhaps to the point of ridiculing it
- Assume that AW is a psychopath (interestingly, she takes a number of "psychopath" tests online and comments on "passing")

Perhaps MG could have been persuaded that PL was the "enemy" (of Slender Man) as a non-believer. To show her dedication to Slender Man (the word "dedication" was used by AW) she and AW should become proxies by killing PL.

AW could have communicated this to MG in some manner, pretending to be Slender Man, or perhaps an "agent" of his. So the idea of becoming a proxy and killing PL apparently comes from MG, not AW. AW's reaction was "surprised but also excited". As this was (as far as we know) the first conversation between the girls that specified THEM killing an ACTUAL PERSON, "shocked" would be more appropriate.

Supporting points:

- By running away together, whether they met Slender Man or not, they would be... together. Not only that, but as fugitives, they would ONLY have each other as company - no parents, siblings or other friends - just each other

- AW could have stopped the attack at any point, but didn't do so. I think she really wanted to maintain the notion that the killing bit was MG's idea and responsibility (if caught, at least)

- AW immediately gave a very detailed account of events, STARTING WITH THE BACK-STORY OF SLENDER MAN, as opposed to the events of that day that led to the attack. It almost sounded like she had practiced it

Bear in mind that if they HAD killed PL, it could have been many more hours before PL was found, by which time they could be a long way away.

So that theory would be that AW set it up to get MG as an exclusive friend. She used MG's obsession with Slender Man to drive a wedge between MG and PL, such that PL became the "enemy", and they, AW and MG, became the defenders of Slender Man. By posing as an agent of Slender Man, AW could reinforce the "reality" of Slender Man to MG, and also give suggestions/instructions. (And maybe AW told MG that the same person was contacting her also. This could be the ambiguous "he" mentioned by MG).

AW's social media trails indicates an interest, but not an obsession with Slender Man and CreepyPasta. There are many more "likes" for Ninja Turtles, Pokemon and such. But she figured out that it struck a chord with MG, and that could be leveraged to her advantage. Unfortunately, this requires MG to be (or to become) delusional - something to which she already could have been susceptible.

JUST a theory, but it does seem to fit most of the data

 

[ICS]

Latest court record for AW:

Notice of Motion and Motion to Disclose Competency Evaluation Reports of Co-Defendant filed by Attorney Joseph Smith, Jr.

From what I can gather this may be because there may be something in MG's competency report that either helps to explain AW's actions, or calls into question witness testimony against AW.

 

[tlcya]

1. Knives.

a. The last paragraph of the complaint states that AW's father said he was missing a 2 1/2" knife. Does this mean that AW already had a knife?

b. The same paragraph states that a 5" knife was found in AW's backpack, not the purse that MG had taken from her mother. Is this the same 5" knife used for the attack - or yet another one??

2. Third-party involvement.

a. Could the third party actually have been AW? Bear with me here...

- Assume AW had a desire to get PL out of the picture and have M.G. as an exclusive best friend
- Assume that PL did NOT share the interest in Slender Man, perhaps to the point of ridiculing it
- Assume that AW is a psychopath (interestingly, she takes a number of "psychopath" tests online and comments on "passing")

Perhaps MG could have been persuaded that PL was the "enemy" (of Slender Man) as a non-believer. To show her dedication to Slender Man (the word "dedication" was used by AW) she and AW should become proxies by killing PL.

AW could have communicated this to MG in some manner, pretending to be Slender Man, or perhaps an "agent" of his. So the idea of becoming a proxy and killing PL apparently comes from MG, not AW. AW's reaction was "surprised but also excited". As this was (as far as we know) the first conversation between the girls that specified THEM killing an ACTUAL PERSON, "shocked" would be more appropriate.

Supporting points:

- By running away together, whether they met Slender Man or not, they would be... together. Not only that, but as fugitives, they would ONLY have each other as company - no parents, siblings or other friends - just each other

- AW could have stopped the attack at any point, but didn't do so. I think she really wanted to maintain the notion that the killing bit was MG's idea and responsibility (if caught, at least)

- AW immediately gave a very detailed account of events, STARTING WITH THE BACK-STORY OF SLENDER MAN, as opposed to the events of that day that led to the attack. It almost sounded like she had practiced it

Bear in mind that if they HAD killed PL, it could have been many more hours before PL was found, by which time they could be a long way away.

So that theory would be that AW set it up to get MG as an exclusive friend. She used MG's obsession with Slender Man to drive a wedge between MG and PL, such that PL became the "enemy", and they, AW and MG, became the defenders of Slender Man. By posing as an agent of Slender Man, AW could reinforce the "reality" of Slender Man to MG, and also give suggestions/instructions. (And maybe AW told MG that the same person was contacting her also. This could be the ambiguous "he" mentioned by MG).

AW's social media trails indicates an interest, but not an obsession with Slender Man and CreepyPasta. There are many more "likes" for Ninja Turtles, Pokemon and such. But she figured out that it struck a chord with MG, and that could be leveraged to her advantage. Unfortunately, this requires MG to be (or to become) delusional - something to which she already could have been susceptible.

JUST a theory, but it does seem to fit most of the data

Very interesting theory.