WI WI - Kelly Nolan, 22, Madison, 23 June 2007 #1

[Ang50]

Why would he have to be college age? He could have been an authority figure the cafe guy would have trusted. "Friend" could have meant..."friend of the family", "friend as in boss type figure", "friend as in apt. manager", etc. I would think Cafe guy would have least trusted a college age male student to safely take care of a young, intoxicated female. If he cared about her safety enough to walk her home in the first place...why would he hand her to a guy that might only want to take advantage of her being in that state?

The authority figure example is plausible, but unlikely. It's been a while since I've been on the bar scene, but really, truly in that area of downtown Madison, and at the bars Kelly went to (SSB and Lava) it's not a mixed age group. Any "older" man (i.e. 30's and up) is viewed VERY suspiciously and most people assume they're there to hit on younger girls. Older men are persona non grata in most of those bars - women don't talk to them and young men ignore or make fun of them.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The authority figure example is plausible, but unlikely. It's been a while since I've been on the bar scene, but really, truly in that area of downtown Madison, and at the bars Kelly went to (SSB and Lava) it's not a mixed age group. Any "older" man (i.e. 30's and up) is viewed VERY suspiciously and most people assume they're there to hit on younger girls. Older men are persona non grata in most of those bars - women don't talk to them and young men ignore or make fun of them.

I can understand that, but was this so-called "friend" in a bar or outside walking/driving by when he approached Kelly and Cafe guy? I don't recall hearing where the supposed exchange took place.

I know here the bars are mixed. You can have a 21-something place right next door to an upscale 35+ bar so in that instance...it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for their paths to cross outside.

Another thing I was never clear on are her past boyfriends or interests. Did she have any? If so, why has no one ever mentioned him or them? Surely, she must have dated somewhere along the line from high school to 22yo. Any idea? If this perp weren't a stranger...then maybe he was more than a friend to begin with and was effectively stalking her to catch her in that condition.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I second that. Its completely socially acceptable, and basically expected of you. To see somebody so drunk they couldn't stand would hardly raise an eyebrow. Just as in Lacrosse going to the river when youre drunk wouldn't raise an eyebrow. There really isn't much else to do in LaCrosse, drink or hang out by the park on the river... or both at once. If I remember correctly, there are even benches to sit at?
Google Mifflin Street the annual drunk fest of 15,000 to 25,000. Didn't she live on Mifflin street? They aren't drinking soda....
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Mifflin_Street_Block_Party.png

Yes, I think Mifflin is where she lived. So is it like this at 2:00 am on a Sat. nite, too? Parties going on everywhere and the like? I realize what you showed was a festival type thing, but it made me wonder.

 

[Ang50]

Yes, I think Mifflin is where she lived. So is it like this at 2:00 am on a Sat. nite, too? Parties going on everywhere and the like? I realize what you showed was a festival type thing, but it made me wonder.

Well... Mifflin Street Block Party is a special event. Most houses on the entire street host parties and everyone walks around and drinks. Bands in the backyard, etc.

Mifflin itself then becomes a street with more partiers living there than anywhere else on campus. So it's likely there are more after-bars and such on a Saturday. But it wouldn't be anything like the block party.

 

[Ang50]

I can understand that, but was this so-called "friend" in a bar or outside walking/driving by when he approached Kelly and Cafe guy? I don't recall hearing where the supposed exchange took place.

I know here the bars are mixed. You can have a 21-something place right next door to an upscale 35+ bar so in that instance...it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for their paths to cross outside.

I believe the exchange took place outside of the bar. I didn't mean to limit myself when I was trying to explain.

But downtown Madison is roughly 50,000 people under the age of 30. Going out on State Street isn't like going out in downtown Dallas, or DC, or any other city. It's not a mixed crowd. There are bars that cater to different people - but it's mostly Coasties or underagers or potsmokers or granolas or whatever. Paul's Club usually has more grad students and farther up on the Square is Gena's with younger political types. But it's a very, very tight age group - basically 18-24. Men outside of that age group stick out. Hell, it's an area where you don't even check out the hands for a wedding band - no one is married.

Now - if I'm wrong and this guy was older, he'll probably be easier to find. If he was at the bars, people would have noticed him. If he was walking along the street with Kelly, they would have been noticed.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I would assume they left by car. So where do people park along there?

 

[cheko1]

No I understand a lot of college kids do this in other places. I actually went to another "party" school, that even made it on the Playboy Top Ten Party Schools list that was in a different state. I am not originally from Wisconsin either. I have lived and traveled extensively. Wisconsin is different. Walworth County has the highest or one of the highest drunk driving stats in the state. You can't buy alcohol past 8:45 pm here because it's so BAD. And it's just not college kids, IT'S PRACTICALLY EVERYONE!!! Wisconsin actually has a law that lets parents bring their underage children with them to the bar and allows them to drink as long as they are with Mom or Dad. Each establishment can abide by this or not. Where I used to work, we didn't. You would not believe the amount of parents who were angry that I wouldn't give their 14 year old a daquiri.

Yes they do have that law......but I also know most parents do NOT allow it. Also heard of a parent who bought there 17 yr old a beer & he went out got pulled over by LE / cop gave him a underage drinking ticket. Kid protested he said compliments of your Mom & Poppa. Hauled him off to jail, folks had to go get him.

Not practically everyone in Wi abuses alcohol. Its no different then any other state. Or were you just saying in that area?

 

[Ang50]

I would assume they left by car. So where do people park along there?

No civilian vehicles are allowed on State Street. There are a couple municipal lots - one open one on Gilman, a 3 story lot near Brats, and a couple more sprinkled nearby. There'd be some metered parking, but it's usually always taken. Parking on Mifflin or Gilman on the street would be hard - it's always crowded.

Of course a car was used at some point. Because the Lounge and Kelly's apt were close together, normally a car wouldn't be used. It would have taken longer to walk to the car, get in and drive, hopefully find a new space, and then go into the apt than it would have to just walk. No one would risk not finding parking in order to move their car a few blocks closer.

BUT - you make a great point because the car situation is key. Parking isn't convenient and since people are always around, it would be difficult to murder her in the apt and then take her body outside to the car. Also, as it was bar time, it would have been really late to walk to the apt and then go back for the car and drive somewhere. It's likely that Kelly never went back to her apt.

 

[cheko1]

That entire area up there- Lake Michigan, Half Moon Lake, the Mississippi River, the Ohio, the Red Cedar - the list goes on and on. I still don't understand how LE can attribute them simply to intoxicated drowning accidents.

Thats just what we wonder about too?
After a night of partying most people would want to go home & go to bed.Not these guys they all wanted to go for a swim.......makes no sense at all.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I would say all college towns go through basically the same thing. They have cracked down on our campuses and enforced the drinking age laws more over the past couple of years, but before then it was more the standard than not to have binge drinking being the number one activity.

 

[Ang50]

Not practically everyone in Wi abuses alcohol. Its no different then any other state. Or were you just saying in that area?

I do think alcohol is more a part of our culture than other states. Look at any small WI town - are there more bars or churches? We're also one of the greatest consumers of brandy, not to mention beer. Our state embraces the tailgate, which other states don't even know how to do properly.

In college, I held a position where I visited colleges nationally. Most campuses did not hold a candle to UW schools. Those campuses had bars where people actually danced, not just drank. Or - at UNC - people wore NICE CLOTHES to frat parties - and I couldn't even find a keg.

At it relates to DUI's - WI has extremely lenient penalties for a 1st offense. It's not even a felony like other states. Most people get a fine for a first offense in WI.

 

[cheko1]

No civilian vehicles are allowed on State Street. There are a couple municipal lots - one open one on Gilman, a 3 story lot near Brats, and a couple more sprinkled nearby. There'd be some metered parking, but it's usually always taken. Parking on Mifflin or Gilman on the street would be hard - it's always crowded.

Of course a car was used at some point. Because the Lounge and Kelly's apt were close together, normally a car wouldn't be used. It would have taken longer to walk to the car, get in and drive, hopefully find a new space, and then go into the apt than it would have to just walk. No one would risk not finding parking in order to move their car a few blocks closer.

BUT - you make a great point because the car situation is key. Parking isn't convenient and since people are always around, it would be difficult to murder her in the apt and then take her body outside to the car. Also, as it was bar time, it would have been really late to walk to the apt and then go back for the car and drive somewhere. It's likely that Kelly never went back to her apt.

I think she was lured to get into a car by someone saying they knew where a party was going on.....did she want to go?

 

[Ang50]

I think she was lured to get into a car by someone saying they knew where a party was going on.....did she want to go?

I think that's likely, but how does it fit in with Cafeguy?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

One thing you mentioned...no civilian vehicles allowed on State. If you had a special permit which allowed you to park anywhere...you could tho? He would have had his car away from other cars in order to get her in without really being noticed. This might work in a parking garage, a remote lot, or a tucked away place.

I don't think she ever made it anywhere near her apt. again. He would have had control over the situation in his car.

 

[cheko1]

I do think alcohol is more a part of our culture than other states. Look at any small WI town - are there more bars or churches? We're also one of the greatest consumers of brandy, not to mention beer. Our state embraces the tailgate, which other states don't even know how to do properly.

In college, I held a position where I visited colleges nationally. Most campuses did not hold a candle to UW schools. Those campuses had bars where people actually danced, not just drank. Or - at UNC - people wore NICE CLOTHES to frat parties - and I couldn't even find a keg.

At it relates to DUI's - WI has extremely lenient penalties for a 1st offense. It's not even a felony like other states. Most people get a fine for a first offense in WI.

I guess when you put it that way your right.......
Little town I live near we have way more bars then churches.

The one thing that shocked me when I moved here was every restaurant was in a bar. Totally blew my mind. Now its a part of life if you want to eat out.

I'll have a extra large portion of crow to eat tomorrow!!!!

 

[Ang50]

One thing you mentioned...no civilian vehicles allowed on State. If you had a special permit which allowed you to park anywhere...you could tho? He would have had his car away from other cars in order to get her in without really being noticed. This might work in a parking garage, a remote lot, or a tucked away place.

I don't think she ever made it anywhere near her apt. again. He would have had control over the situation in his car.

Buses, cop cars and sometimes delivery vehicles in the AM. But no handicapped permits or anything else on State.

There are three parking garages that I can think of in the area. Cap Center apts (kellys) have parking of some kind.

There really wouldn't be a remote lot. But it is an area with a lot of nooks and crannies - alleys, dark corners, etc. So possibly.

But if cheko's right and Kelly got in the car willingly, then that's no problem. However it means that she was killed outside, possibly? If neighbors on Schneider Road smelled something, than surely they might have HEARD something that night if Kelly was killed where she was found.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Well, we already know this girl liked to drink. She also got busted for it more than once...so we can assume she couldn't handle it very well either. Would she have been in any shape to go to an after party or was she pretty much out of it at that point?

Parking remotely was because he wouldn't want anyone to see her get into his car at all. If he were parked around others..someone would have seen them together and have already connected him.

There are others with special permits, too.

 

[Ang50]

I guess when you put it that way your right.......
Little town I live near we have way more bars then churches.

The one thing that shocked me when I moved here was every restaurant was in a bar. Totally blew my mind. Now its a part of life if you want to eat out.

I'll have a extra large portion of crow to eat tomorrow!!!!

He he! I have had a lot of arguments with out-of-staters about this. I maintain that b/c it's part of WI culture, we also learn how to be social with alcohol. It's part of life, as it was in Germany. Other states don't have it ingrained, so college can be more of a shock for students from other states.

That said, students still drink too much and are invincible, so they don't understand the dangers. I know I didn't. I'm darn lucky I didn't end up disappeared in Paris or Florence, much less UW.

 

[cheko1]

I think that's likely, but how does it fit in with Cafeguy?

Could be totally wrong here......
But I am assuming Cafeguy was walking her home / if he passed her off to another friend / he suggested they go to antoher party / she agreed. Totally unaware she was the party.......

Maybe she got mad / knowing he lied to her. He wanted some action / she refused to put out. He persisted / she smacked him / he hit her with his fist / knocking her out cold /he did whatever he did to her. I think she was dead before she got to where he dumped her.......he probably killed her in his car.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I won't make ya eat crow, Cheko! It is the same way in our state. Small town America where the bars are filled on Sat. nite and the pews are filled on Sunday morning (and there just aren't THAT many people!). LOL

Your scenario could be plausible. Things got out of control when they didn't go his way. Hmmm...