Will the real TH please stand up?

[Calliope]

Hopefully, when LE discovered the MFH plot with the LS, they investigated to make sure that Terri hadn't found someone else or others to carry out her evil plot. That would take time, so better have Kaine and baby K out of harms way....just in case.

Absolutely. Guilty or not, it's certainly not safe for baby to be with Terri at this point.

I do wonder if they have any evidence of her attempting to recruit anyone else. Why would she stop with just the landscaper?

 

[mmmagique]

Absolutely. Guilty or not, it's certainly not safe for baby to be with Terri at this point.

I do wonder if they have any evidence of her attempting to recruit anyone else. Why would she stop with just the landscaper?

Well we never did get a decent answer as to why Mike Cook copied Kaine's new, secret address from the RO, did we?

 

[Calliope]

Well we never did get a decent answer as to why Mike Cook copied Kaine's new, secret address from the RO, did we?

Did he?

 

[debs]

Did he?

I think the only question is whether he did it at Terri's insistence or okay. I have my very sound doubts about that.

 

[mmmagique]

Did he?

Yes. With his cell phone.

"Kaine Horman and his lawyer claimed Terri Horman violated the restraining order by showing the then-sealed documents to Michael Cook. Cook, a high school friend of Kaine Horman, is accused in court documents of photographing the papers..."

http://www.kptv.com/news/24736564/detail.html

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Absolutely. Guilty or not, it's certainly not safe for baby to be with Terri at this point.

I do wonder if they have any evidence of her attempting to recruit anyone else. Why would she stop with just the landscaper?

When I saw the title of this thread I thought "wow Terri has finally talked!":crazy:

Terri sure doesn't need her child in her presence if she is receiving death threats. We see how kooky some people can really be in our society.

Until Terri actually speaks out it is very hard to even know what is true and what is not. When only one side talks the real truth is never learned imo. Just half truths or somewhere in between. And I tend to discount a lot of things said when the person speaking out has their own personal biases to do so...even if some of them have a right to those biases. It just clouds the truth many times, imo.

I always found that odd. If she was so determined to find a hit man then why didn't she just get someone else? I would really like to know the truth of what she said. People, although illogical, can say in frustration "I wish he/she was dead" or "I wish I could hire someone to kill xxxxxx" and not really mean it literally at the time but just a way to vent.

I still don't understand why the landscaper supposed hit man laid low until police sought him out 6 or 7 months later if he really thought she was serious.

I don't put much into the sexting. Strange things happen in emotional domestic relationships. Kaine had already moved out and filed for divorce....cant get much plainer than that.... so I think she wanted to convince herself she didn't need Kaine at all and would just go onto someone else. It was irrational though but then so was the female Doctor's decision to climb a roof and try to go down the chimney in order to get into her boyfriend's house that we recently read about.


IMO

 

[mmmagique]

Well...I can't think of very many people I would be comfortable with discussing taking out a hit on someone.

And then, if and when it happens, those people who turned me down, you just know they're gonna squeal, right? Because if they won't do the hit, why would they just let it go after it happens?

It's not exactly like ordering a pizza, I imagine. (Depending on where ya live I guess, and who ya know...)

 

[goatman]

Do we know what was said during the alleged attempted MFH plot? There is "da^* life would be easier if he was gone" and "hey I will give you $XZY to murder my husband *wink wink, nudge nudge*", and a whole spectrum of quotes in between.

RE: RO, what if it is simply a matter of, "biding her time", remember before the RO was in place she made multiple attempts to get BabyK back. After that, maybe for her it becomes a matter of time. Maybe she is hoping for primary custody after this is 'all over'. IDK

 

[mmmagique]

The problem with biding your time in a child custody case is the matter of status quo. The longer a child is with someone, barring abuse or some other mistreatment, the more it becomes "status quo" and the harder that is to get changed later. Even if.

 

[gwenabob]

Your post did get my attention. I respect your right to your opinion, but, I, MOO, would be VERY surprised if "a large majority" of adults over the age of 35 who are married send racy messages and suggestive/nude photos to someone other than his/her spouse.

There are numerous things about TH that do not project a positive image IMO, but the above is one of the most striking. TH is the mother to a teenage son. Can you imagine the "pain and humiliation" that young man would (will) probably face if/when these pictures surface on the internet? An educated individual who doesn't "get" the layers of consequences of "putting it in writing" and sexting pictures of herself, is not someone I would want teaching my child.

Just 5 years ago, when she was old enough to know better, she endangered the life of the same son by driving under the influence at almost twice the legal limit. This conviction was a felony. I am sure that she did not renew her teaching license until this year, because the State of Oregon requires that candidates may not have a DUI within 5 years of application.



Additionally she has a terrible driving record. "In the records search, it was learned Kyron Horman's step-mom wracked up more in traffic violations before her DUI conviction. ABC reports TH had about nine traffic infractions, which included mostly speeding with one being she drove with an expired license - happening between the years of 1988 and 2004." http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-hor...d-explosive-court-documents/story?id=11050953

What this says to me is she has very little regard for "rules". TH does not seem to have regard for the safety, welfare, or anguish of others including those who love(loved) her. The early tickets could well have been youthful "indiscretions," but a woman who wants to be an educator should exhibit more self-control and better planning to avoid multiple speeding tickets. I'm surprised her license was not suspended and can't imagine how much her auto insurance would be with 7-8 speeding violations and a DUI.

Being married three times, especially in this day and age, is not a character condemnation. However, as other posters have noted, TH has some odd twists and turns in her marital relationships. No marriage lasted more than 4 years. Her average seems to be three years with a year for the divorce. She moved in with KH in 2002, DUI in 2005, marriage in 2007, and then the alleged plot to have him killed by late 2009. Money is an underlying motif whether it was a concern about inheritance, child support, life insurance, etc. in all three marriages.

IMO, TH was hyper-critical of KyH's teacher in various circumstances. (In emails she criticizes the lack of organization of the SF, the teacher is "hard of hearing" and it's the teacher's first year")...IMO she seems to be saying, "I, TH, could have done a better job." I have no idea why she brought the baby with her into KyH's class or would celebrate the baby's birthday in that classroom. Frankly, this would be a distraction in the learning environment and I question whether KyH would have found "sharing the spotlight" with his baby sister enjoyable.

I haven't heard many explanations for the downward spiral in TH's physical appearance since the birth of baby K. Looking at pictures of her shortly after the birth and in June and the most recent court appearance, the difference in weight, demeanor, and focus is striking. In fact compare the pictures of the June press conference and the court appearance. Certainly the first pictures of Desiree were not flattering either, but TH's picture at the time of June PC is, again MOO, shows a vastly different person.

Honestly, the TH I know is based on the public facts of her life. I do not "like" this TH. I have no idea what exculpatory or extenuating circumstances might influence her choices, but I certainly see a pattern of thoughtless, self-centered decisions, that have impacted the lives of those nearest to her.

I haven't even touched on the "hinky" story of her bio-son's move, the statements about the "state of her marriage" (KH VS TH versions), the secret drinking or drinking herself to sleep, the obsession with body building, etc

I am certainly not trained to diagnose or suggest possible mental issues. I can observe a pattern of behaviors that are either illegal and/or dangerous as well as harmful to others. MOO...

Excellent Post!!!!! Tink, will you move next door to me and be my new BFF? Pretty please?

 

[miabellamoure]

I didn't find the conversation confusing at all. I listened a couple more times to see if I was missing anything, and I don't think I was.

Kaine says he'd had parents "come to me" and say what's above. That tells me the parents heard or read stuff - I'd assume in the news - and then, after hearing or reading this stuff, go to him and express their surprise because Terri had never seemed to be the way she was being portrayed.

I was glad to hear that there are "tons" of people who thought highly of Terri, including trusting her with their children. I felt a sense of some relief, some assurance, that Terri wouldn't harm a child, that she wouldn't harm Kyron, at least not physically. It helped me maintain my hope that, if Terri was involved in his disappearance, Kyron is alive somewhere.

bbm

And for me...that if Kyron's disappearance is the results of a death brought on by a moment of rage on the part of TH, that it would be better than anything premeditated...that is the worse of all theories...imo!

 

[gitana1]

The problem with enticing Kyron is difficult considering his personality. Kaine stated that Kyron was shy, obeyed the rules, didn't wander off, didn't get up in the morning to go watch cartoons or eat cereal - he stayed in his bed until someone came and got him. Can you imagine that kind of child being enticed away from school?

Yes. That's exactly the kind of kid that would be easily enticed from school: "Kyron, you need to come with me right away." He goes. No argument.

I didn't find the conversation confusing at all. I listened a couple more times to see if I was missing anything, and I don't think I was.

Kaine says he'd had parents "come to me" and say what's above. That tells me the parents heard or read stuff - I'd assume in the news - and then, after hearing or reading this stuff, go to him and express their surprise because Terri had never seemed to be the way she was being portrayed.

I was glad to hear that there are "tons" of people who thought highly of Terri, including trusting her with their children. I felt a sense of some relief, some assurance, that Terri wouldn't harm a child, that she wouldn't harm Kyron, at least not physically. It helped me maintain my hope that, if Terri was involved in his disappearance, Kyron is alive somewhere.

Tons of people thought highly of Ted Bundy. Tons of people were shocked by what Chris Coleman, Mark Hacking and scott peterson did. They trusted those guys and thought they were outstanding members of the community and wonderful family men. They had a hundred people lined up willing to talk about what a great person scott peterson was (for the sentencing). Tons of people though casey anthony was a good and loving mom.
People who lived a pretty good life and then suddenly commit a horrible crime are bound to have been thought highly of prior to the crime. Some of them succumbed to intense pressure and their baser instincts. Others were very adept at hiding their true natures from everyone and it was only later that people saw certain anomalies as the red flags they were.

I understand. I believe it was answered in the attorney thread that they can't use it in her criminal case. (I have to go check again)

Nope. They can use anything she says in a civil case against her in a criminal case for impeachment purposes. They cannot use her refusal to testify though.

While this whole not fighting the RO is a bit of a sticking point for me, I can see how it would be near impossible to dis-prove what LE has said about the murder plot. What, really, can she say other than "no, I didn't" and if LE is saying "yes, she did", not sure the judge would listen to her. And we know she can't care for her baby at this time. I'm just back and forth on this...I would think she would want to fight for at least some visitation, even supervised, but can also understand that she may have been told it is futile.

The judge could not decide TH's culpability based on LE saying: "Yes she did". That would be hearsay and lack foundation, two valid objections causing such a statement to be inadmissible.
Evidence must be presented by the person seeking the RO, not just LE's word. Kaine would have had to put on evidence showing that there are grounds to believe TH had something to do with Kyron's disappearance and shopped around looking for someone who may agree to off her husband. Such evidence may include things like putting the landscaper on the stand. The court would then have to weigh the credibility of the witnesses against the credibility of the accused via their testimony. Third party hearsay allegations whether from Kaine or LE would not suffice.

ETA: The only reason I can think of that TH could not care for her baby right now is due to the scrutiny (because she'd get child support if custody was awarded to her and possibly exclusive use of the residence pending final judgment). But assuming you are right, why can't she even see her baby? She can't hug her, kiss her, play with her in a supervised setting? Not buying it.

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

I just want Kyron home with his two wonderful parents. Who ever the real TH is ,she does not have the right to deprive Kyron of his home & parental love. She certainly does not have the right to deprive him of his God -given life! Who does she think she is ! I'm mad as hell& I 'm not going to take it any more.:furious::furious: She gives orders to the world???

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Your post did get my attention. I respect your right to your opinion, but, I, MOO, would be VERY surprised if "a large majority" of adults over the age of 35 who are married send racy messages and suggestive/nude photos to someone other than his/her spouse.

There are numerous things about TH that do not project a positive image IMO, but the above is one of the most striking. TH is the mother to a teenage son. Can you imagine the "pain and humiliation" that young man would (will) probably face if/when these pictures surface on the internet? An educated individual who doesn't "get" the layers of consequences of "putting it in writing" and sexting pictures of herself, is not someone I would want teaching my child.

Just 5 years ago, when she was old enough to know better, she endangered the life of the same son by driving under the influence at almost twice the legal limit. This conviction was a felony. I am sure that she did not renew her teaching license until this year, because the State of Oregon requires that candidates may not have a DUI within 5 years of application.



Additionally she has a terrible driving record. "In the records search, it was learned Kyron Horman's step-mom wracked up more in traffic violations before her DUI conviction. ABC reports TH had about nine traffic infractions, which included mostly speeding with one being she drove with an expired license - happening between the years of 1988 and 2004." http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/kyron-hor...d-explosive-court-documents/story?id=11050953

What this says to me is she has very little regard for "rules". TH does not seem to have regard for the safety, welfare, or anguish of others including those who love(loved) her. The early tickets could well have been youthful "indiscretions," but a woman who wants to be an educator should exhibit more self-control and better planning to avoid multiple speeding tickets. I'm surprised her license was not suspended and can't imagine how much her auto insurance would be with 7-8 speeding violations and a DUI.

Being married three times, especially in this day and age, is not a character condemnation. However, as other posters have noted, TH has some odd twists and turns in her marital relationships. No marriage lasted more than 4 years. Her average seems to be three years with a year for the divorce. She moved in with KH in 2002, DUI in 2005, marriage in 2007, and then the alleged plot to have him killed by late 2009. Money is an underlying motif whether it was a concern about inheritance, child support, life insurance, etc. in all three marriages.

IMO, TH was hyper-critical of KyH's teacher in various circumstances. (In emails she criticizes the lack of organization of the SF, the teacher is "hard of hearing" and it's the teacher's first year")...IMO she seems to be saying, "I, TH, could have done a better job." I have no idea why she brought the baby with her into KyH's class or would celebrate the baby's birthday in that classroom. Frankly, this would be a distraction in the learning environment and I question whether KyH would have found "sharing the spotlight" with his baby sister enjoyable.

I haven't heard many explanations for the downward spiral in TH's physical appearance since the birth of baby K. Looking at pictures of her shortly after the birth and in June and the most recent court appearance, the difference in weight, demeanor, and focus is striking. In fact compare the pictures of the June press conference and the court appearance. Certainly the first pictures of Desiree were not flattering either, but TH's picture at the time of June PC is, again MOO, shows a vastly different person.

Honestly, the TH I know is based on the public facts of her life. I do not "like" this TH. I have no idea what exculpatory or extenuating circumstances might influence her choices, but I certainly see a pattern of thoughtless, self-centered decisions, that have impacted the lives of those nearest to her.

I haven't even touched on the "hinky" story of her bio-son's move, the statements about the "state of her marriage" (KH VS TH versions), the secret drinking or drinking herself to sleep, the obsession with body building, etc

I am certainly not trained to diagnose or suggest possible mental issues. I can observe a pattern of behaviors that are either illegal and/or dangerous as well as harmful to others. MOO...

While I am much older than 40, I cannot say with any certainty that those in their 40s, 50's, and even beyond don't send racy text messages or photos. According to the media 40 is the new 20 so I think we may be surprised what some do. At one time I wouldn't have believed that women are really into *advertiser censored* either but the media has reported more and more women are looking at and buying *advertiser censored* than ever before. The attitudes of some women seem to be changing and the technology is there for them to do so at their beckoning call. Somehow I think there are a lot doing the same thing Terri did.

While Terri did seem to be reckless in her driving behavior patterns until 2005 it does seem in the last five years she had learned to adhere to the rules.

I don't give being married three times much weight. Desiree has also been married three times. So I dont judge either one of them.

If Terri is involved in Kyron's disappearance, I don't think money is a factor at all. I have not seen anything to support that. Even the MFH if true could be about something totally different than money.

I thought she looked very striking when she came to the divorce hearing. But if she did gain weight I would imagine it was to feed the pain she felt about something going on in her life that caused her to plummet. I think Kaine knows very well what caused Terri to change but is remaining mum about it.

I don't see any evidence that those around Terri thought she was dangerous. I highly doubt the school would have let her volunteer the way they did if they thought Terri was not good for the children.

IMO

 

[Curious Me]

At this point in the "investigation" I really just have hearsay and partial facts. I've tried to keep up with what is real fact, but Kyron's parents do keep directing me to TMH and LE points towards her, but I'm left on this fence in the mist of Limbo..

I have not seen a tactic like this used before, and without LE giving us a clue as to why this intense focus on certain people for months. Another layer has now been added with people in the community saying something connotating sexual stuff might've been going on with Terri, but what exactly are the parents saying I don't know.

Did TMH ever harm Kyron that the parents know of?
Did she ever make food and someone got very sick?
Is the MFH plot the only thing you have on her, and is the MFH plot well supported with evidence of any kind?

She used to like to drink, and she used her sexuality as a manipulative tool, but it's very important to figure out if she had anything to do with Kyron being missing. Tell me please, this can't go on much longer!

 

[GrainneDhu]

lol @ inappropriate ....

It appears that baby came with Terri other times when Terri helped out in class. Who's to say the other kids didn't like her, even if her *older sibling* did not want her there? For all we know, they 'adopted' her, a class mascot if you will lol.

There's no evidence that Kyron was embarrassed of his sister. I don't know of too many 7-8 year olds who'd pass up the chance of a class party, no matter what the occasion. And I trust if it was a 'huge distraction' and negatively impacted the learning environment, teacher and school staff would have forbidden her to be there.

Kyron has been consistently described as shy and timid by the adults who knew him. While it is possible that Kyron resented sharing special times with baby K, I think it's equally or more possible that he was rather relieved whenever the social spotlight was on baby K rather than himself. Shy, timid kids tend to prefer being able to hang back a little and observe; that's why they are called shy and not, say, outgoing!

In my experience, siblings with more than four years between them seem to have less rivalry and jealousy between them when they are little (when the teen years arrive, HA! anything goes!) than siblings who are less than four years apart.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by citigirl
Sorry, I thought it could be used against her. That makes me think it is possible it was not advice from her lawyer, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZlawyer
No, because a civil finding of liability is only a finding by a preponderance of the evidence (or sometimes "clear and convincing" evidence). Civil findings therefore hold no water in a criminal case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZlawyer
Civil findings could not be mentioned in a criminal case because they would be irrelevent and confusing to the jury.

The jury might be asked in voir dire if any of them followed the related civil case, whether or not they could set aside whatever they knew about the civil case in making their determination, etc. They would not be given any instruction about it at the end of the case, though, because in theory they wouldn't know about it because it wasn't mentioned during the trial.
I was asking how the civil case would impact the criminal, and if the jury would be instructed to disregard what they'd read/heard about the civil.

That doesn't cover all the possible ways her testimony under oath in a civil case could be used against her in a criminal trial, though. At least, I don't think so.

Say, for instance, in a civil court TMH goes on the stand and KH's attorney asks her... well, just about anything. If there is any deviation, no matter how tiny, between what she has said to LE previously and her testimony under oath, in a criminal trial the DA could use that deviation to impeach her as a witness.

An example of how such tiny deviations can help impeach a witness is the varying times that have been put forward as to when TMH left school. Was it 8:35? 8:45? 9:00? I think it's possible that there is an innocent explanation for the various times put forward (depending on the importance of the communication, she was either more precise or rounded off).

The criminal jury isn't given the findings of any civil jury but testimony under oath in a civil matter can be used to show that the witness has lied (prosecutor's interpretation) or made some simple human errors (defence interpretation).

I doubt such evidence would be enough to convict or exonerate but it can act as one of the bricks of the foundation of a case.

 

[Curious Me]

Don't schools have rules against bringing other younger children into the classroom while in session? I'd kind of resent if one parent was allowed to do that all the time.

Suppose that young child got seriously hurt while in the classroom, and you had to sue the school because the insurance makes an issue of why that child was hanging around in the classroom to begin with.

I think Kyron probably loved his little sister though and didn't resent her.

 

[The Duck]

Was Terri really getting death threats and has this been verified?

 

[Jo in Calif]

Was Terri really getting death threats and has this been verified?

As far as I can remember, not from LE. Stands to reason she would, lot's of coo coo's come out in high profile cases.