Will the SA Introduce the Critical Missing Motive--KC’s vengeful hostility toward CA

[DAWN TREADER]

Wasn't it Cindy's mother who claimed Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee?

 

[Whisperer]

fftopic:

Why did the State cut Cindy off when she spoke about the knife in the car? Where is the blanket that was in the car. Two people testified to it being there on the back seat when they looked in the car.

 

[Whisperer]

I and most people wanted to believe that this was an accident. I think it is human nature to go in that direction. It is difficult to wrap your head around murdering a child. In most cases, it is not an accident but intentional....sad to say.

 

[txsvicki]

I don't think it matters so much. For me the motive isn't her spite toward her mother. If she just gave Caylee to her parents, she'd still be left with no source of income and no residence. She needed their house to live in and also get boarders for money. I have no doubt that if not caught, Casey would've left a long trail of victims in her wake ... victims of her financial scams & when that began to catch up with her or they outlived their usefulness to her, more victims of murder.

For sociopaths, getting rid of people is a matter of convenience, not emotion, right? She was just eliminating the 'things' that stood in her way, one by one. Her parents were next IMO. Amy & Tony are lucky to be alive too IMO.

I agree. She'd also be liable for child support and to pay back the thefts or go to jail. When a psychopath can get so many people, even strangers to blame another person, they are really dangerous. The gaslighting of Cindy worked so well with immature controllable boyfriends and middle school friends, she probably thought she could keep it up and get away with murder. I wonder how many friends had episodes of getting "too drunk" and woke up with missing money. This happened to Amy when Casey told her she was sleepwalking, and Casey did have her resume in the vehicle when found. Wonder if she was going to assume her identity.

 

[Friday]

I have also wondered if the SA was going to present any evidence along this line of thought. Throughout the presentation of KC's behavior, there were hints of the KC-CA conflict, particularly from Amy who verbalized KC as calling her mom crazy and her witnessing their interaction the night of July 15. Then we have Lee, who reported that CA had called KC an unfit mother, and then there is KC stating maybe she is a spiteful beotch. This, of course, is not enough alone for the jury to have as much insight as we have had over the last 3 years. Since the SA does not have to prove motive, we are heading into the scientific evidence leg of the SA case, I'm doubting that anything will be introduced.

For one thing, the only evidence they can access is from the neighbors. The neighbors would not know the intricacies of the argument and would probably carry little weight, and objections by the defense on grounds of relevancy may be sustained. CA has denied these events, and KC can only be called to the stand by the DT. SA questions on cross will be limited to what the DT brings up on direct, so IMO, it's unlikely any of this will be introduced. Unfortunately.

You're right about all that, and that's what worries me.

 

[rotterdam]

Wasn't it Cindy's mother who claimed Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee?

There could be a lot of truth in that statement that mrs Plesea made. With her Dad on second shift and Cindy working during the daytime, there was plenty of time between those two to babysit. And since the grandparents were basically paying for Caylee's upbringing already, they would probably make arrangements if additional babysitting was required so KC could proceed with her party(working ahem) life. But they enjoyed having their grand baby at home too much. That did not sit well with KC. The main motive for KC could be to hurt Cindy IMO as much as possible. Caylee was the perfect tool for that. When you watch those early jail recordings, KC seems to enjoy the pain Cindy is in.

 

[sua_sponte]

I picked out another tell during the playing of the universal interview. When investigators are quizzing her about the phone call she received from Caylee, and why Caylee wasn't upset on the phone even though she hadn't talked to her mother in a month... Casey says something to the effect of, "she never gets upset over talking to me, but if it were my mom on the other hand..." then the detective interrupts her, so we don't hear what she was about to say. But clearly, she was alluding to the fact that Caylee would miss Cindy more than she would miss Casey.
I wish those investigators had let her talk more, and interupted less.

 

[magiemay]

I don't know if this will fit with motive but why did LDB ask CA about that teddy bear when she was questioning her? She went all into the fact that CA slept with the teddy and that it all of a sudden was gone. I wonder why she let it be known it was gone,and has any one ever found that teddy?

 

[magiemay]

I picked out another tell during the playing of the universal interview. When investigators are quizzing her about the phone call she received from Caylee, and why Caylee wasn't upset on the phone even though she hadn't talked to her mother in a month... Casey says something to the effect of, "she never gets upset over talking to me, but if it were my mom on the other hand..." then the detective interrupts her, so we don't hear what she was about to say. But clearly, she was alluding to the fact that Caylee would miss Cindy more than she would miss Casey.
I wish those investigators had let her talk more, and interupted less.

There was a good many times I kept thinking I wish they would let her finish what she was saying.

 

[SuziQ]

Annie witnessed it too while Casey was out on bond.

IMO

And Annie's ballcap ended up in the A's garbage ripped to shreds.

 

[Friday]

Oh! I just remembered something LDB did that convinced me the SA wants to preserve the jury's image of CA as weeping, battered, helpless, heartbroken angel of a grandma, and conceal the combative, domineering, even vicious mother KC knew at times....

When TL (or was it AH?) was testifying about what happened when CA arrived at TL's apartment July 15th, LDB came right out and told TL to stop right there and not go any further. "Further" would have been CA's opening words to TL--a hateful warning to her daughter's boyfriend, "You'd better have plenty of money, yada, yada."

Did anyone else notice and draw the same conclusion I did?

Oh, and BTW and "For the Record," my descriptions of CA and KC above are not to be regarded as a mockery or criticism of CA or a bid for sympathy for KC. I'm just trying to look through the jury's and the SA's eyes, but also to acknowledge the truth's we here at WS know to be facts. For purposes of this topic, let's all allow ourselves this same leeway and freedom.

 

[ynotdivein]

Friday, great thread IMO. If any juror is the least bit sensitive to family dynamics they will remember the jail visitation tapes, where it's clear that when CA and ICA are on the phone together, there are sparks. They will remember that when it came down to it, ICA chose GA for her one-on-one visit.

I do think the SA needs to hammer this home for the jury, especially after whatever the DT presents. But the animosity between CA/ICA seeps out at every pore....

 

[cluciano63]

If they use Caylee's resentment toward her mom as a motive, I would imagine it would break Cindy even more, to think she is being shown as the "reason" her granddaughter was murdered. She has probably had these thoughts on her own, but to have it be out there would be terrible, I think.

But I believe that it is already "out there" as the opinion of at least some jurors, if they decide she killed Caylee on purpose. The tapes did that, in my opinion, so maybe the state won't have to go there.

 

[katydid23]

I really wish the state could bring in and explore the fight between Casey and Cindy on the 15th. Or was there one? I always thought there was and thought that was the trigger for Casey's anger. IF Cindy did threaten to fight for custody of Caylee and kick Casey out---THAT would trigger RAGE like no other, imo.

Casey had nothing REAL in her life except her home on Hopesprings Drive. Every thing she had came from there. That is where she stole money to live on, where she got everything she needed, the only people she relied upon. If they actually kicked her to the curb she had nothing left. She would lose everything, including Tony and her friends. How could she possibly tell them she lost custody of her kid and lost contact with her family. " How would that look?"

I really want to know if there was a fight that night. If so, that is a motive the jury can understand, imo

 

[concentric]

Listen to her as she speaks to her mother from Jail, the contempt and loathing she feels for Cindy just drips off her.

That's all the psychological assessment needed.

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http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/28120228/detail.html

In the jailhouse talk, check out the air of superiority and inflated sense of herself that KC has towards others. She starts out laughing and ridiculing her mother for crying and continues to emotionally denigrate her throughout the talk although at times is appeasing towards her mother because KC wanted so badly to get out of jail.
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http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-symptoms-of-sociopathy.htm
People suffering from sociopathy, or antisocial personality disorder, may display a wide range of behaviors associated with the disorder, which generally causes them to have an overall disregard for the needs and rights of others. One of the primary symptoms of sociopathy is chronic lying, which is often used to manipulate others. Sociopaths do not feel guilt or remorse for hurting other people, though they are often superficially charming and likable. They typically see themselves as superior to other people, and have a general disregard for societal norms and rules. They also tend to be impulsive, making irresponsible decisions and engaging in behaviors that hurt other people.

 

[Leila]

Legal commentators on every channel keep harping on two huge problems with the SA's case:

(1) There is no proof of how Caylee died (Cause of Death). We'll ignore this here.

(2) KC had no real, compelling motive to murder Caylee. If KC wanted to be free and "single" all she had to do was give Caylee to doting grandparents, Cindy and George, to raise.

This week, the jurors heard a tape in which KC herself tells YM that if she wanted to be rid of Caylee, she'd have given Caylee to Cindy to raise--and that will surely make sense to the jurors.

I'm afraid that if jurors aren't made aware of the truly toxic, combative relationship between KC and Cindy, these jurors will never be "convinced beyond a reasonable doubt" that KC could, would, and did murder Caylee.

Do you think the SA is going to bring out the truth about KC's battles with Cindy? Are there any witnesses who could testify to this? Who are they? What could they describe--and will they do it or become foregetful? Is there any sworn testimony on anyone's deposition that could be used to force them to testify? What are the chances that Cindy or George would admit the truth if re-called to testify?

Right now, I can only think of one person with firsthand knowledge who'd be willing to testify, and that's the neighbor who loaned KC the shovel. He said he heard screaming matches with KC doing the screaming.

I haven't read the rest of this thread yet, but the first person that comes to mind is Jesse Grund and his parents. Jesse stated that there was a lot of tension between Casey and Cindy and that Casey couldn't wait to get out of the house and out from underneath Cindy's control. His parents, particularly his father, have also stated that there wasn't a good relationship between Cindy and Casey.

Cindy's mother, Shirley, stated that "Casey hated her mother more than she loved Caylee." That's a pretty powerful statement, and she might testify to the problems between Cindy and Casey.

There's a neighbor woman who made a statement that she heard a lot of yelling coming from the Anthony home and it was Casey yelling at her mother.

 

[cluciano63]

I am wondering if Casey possibly hating her mother could be used more by the defense...many sexual abuse victims never forgive their mothers, for either not stopping the abuse or not knowing about it, or denying it if the child tries to tell. (Not saying Casey was abused-just going with the defense here for moment.)

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Wasn't it Cindy's mother who claimed Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee?

I was thinking the same thing -- Cindy's mother Shirley.

IF -- a BIG IF -- the SA wants to "go down that road" and get someone with "credibility" to testify about the constant fighting and problems between ICA and Cindy, it would be Shirley. I believe that Shirley will tell the TRUTH ! Afterall, ICA stole money from Shirley and her grandfather's bank accounts ... wonder if that would come up ?

One other person who came to mind was Cindy's brother Rick -- is he on the witness list ? I bet we could learn a lot from Rick.

 

[Hisimage]

This will be a long trial and although the jurors will remember CA's emotional testimony will they remember the "feeling" of it? It depends on how the trial ends IMO.

So my question is do the jurors get to use their notes when the case is over and they are deliberating? Can they use them to refer to what they wrote all those days?

 

[faefrost]

I don't think the state has to specifically state this motive. It's already been done simply through the evidence and some of KC's public statements. The most chilling moment of it was during Cindy's testimony when she talked about the Teddy Bear going missing right after she told KC she was sleeping with it as a comfort. And by allowing the jurors to come to their own conclusions about it, without outright stating it, it means that JB isn't going to have a way to counter it without either looking like a fool, or highlighting the true motive even more for the jury.