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What? So now you get bruises from putting your hand on someone? Read the last part of what you quoted. It's VERY possible to beat someone's head into the ground with NO injuries at all. You have stated nothing to refute my comment other than "well, you get bruises from skin meeting skin" (paraphrased, obviously).

My point is I don't believe Trayvon's hands caused ALL the injuries GZ supposedly sustained not just slamming his head into the concrete although I think that would've caused injuries to Trayvon's hands too. IMO, you should have some type of bruising to your hands if you gave out an azz whooping that GZ supposedly took. The fact that Trayvon had none, well, I don't believe this was a "fight".

So do you think it's possible to break a nose and give two black eyes, all without injuring your hands? I say NO.

JMO
 
There are medical pictures,responders,and also police and EMT reports stating the extensive injuries that a 28 yr old man received within a very short but brutal assault. I do not understand now that documents have been released how it could be stated that George Zimmerman injuries are that he
supposedly suffered a broken nose, two black eyes , head being bashed into the sidewalk that was written above.He did receive these injuries there is proof. I have watched boxing since I was very young and can remember Ali being in the ring looking "Pretty" as he always called himself and his opponent looking a bleeding mess in 1 round. The Length of a Boxing Round for men is 3 min ,of course TM was not a pro boxer but if you have ever watched a match that 3 minutes sure seems like a long time.TM surprised GZ with his first punch and TM did not stop fighting until GZ had no choice but to stop him IMO.Most people do not bruise after death that could be why TM hands didn't bruise.There was nothing supposed about GZ injuries,the fact is he was beaten by TM without a doubt.

Again, just because GZ sustained those injuries does not mean they came from Trayvon's hands. That's what I'm saying. A beating like that, IMO, would've left injuries to Trayvon's hands but he had none.

Oh and why do you think boxers wear gloves? To protect the hands?

JMO
 
Danged if I don't think this is a GREAT idea! So many things could get cleared up with George, and some random black dude in a hoodie, doing a re enactment right there on the floor of the courtroom!

TMGetToGun4-1.jpg


-To start with, George could show us how he was able to get his hand under/around TM's legs to even get to the little gun inside his pants!

-Then maybe we could get George to work us through, just exactly, where/how he was able to position the gun in order to send a bullet from front to rear, directly through TM's heart, with no up or down angular path for the projectile noted on the ME's report!

-While they were in the "nose to nose" position noted above, George could show us how he was able to fire this bullet from the "intermediate" position of 6" to 2' described by the ME!

-Last, but certainly not least, the other dude could place his hands over George's mouth and nose affording him the perfect opportunity to demonstrate his unique ability to still render those screams heard on the 911 tape right up to the instant of the gunshot!

I hereby nominate this teriffic idea as WS's "Idea" of the case!

Wonder what the odds are of O'Mara going along with it?

Good morning Papa.

I would love to see that demostrated as well. Should be a sight to see.

I am leaning towards GZ and TM either being in a standing position when TM was shot or GZ standing over him when he was shot.. none of that other stuff make sense to me.

JMO
 
My point is I don't believe Trayvon's hands caused ALL the injuries GZ supposedly sustained not just slamming his head into the concrete although I think that would've caused injuries to Trayvon's hands too. IMO, you should have some type of bruising to your hands if you gave out an azz whooping that GZ supposedly took. The fact that Trayvon had none, well, I don't believe this was a "fight".

So do you think it's possible to break a nose and give two black eyes, all without injuring your hands? I say NO.

JMO

Again, I haven't seen a single thing that says Mr. Martin should have any bruising. Would you mind pointing out one? We know it wouldn't be the head slamming, as mentioned above. What else was there? A punch - which I still think was more likely to be the cellphone than a fist, and even if it was a fist there's nothing immediate that tells me the tissue on his knuckles would be bruised. Covering of the mouth? I'm asking you, what do you know that I don't that leads you to believe Mr. Martin would have any injuries at all? I don't care what source it is - anything at all that says "Mr. Martin MUST have injuries if Mr. Zimmerman's story is true, because of _______."
 
I see what you are saying, but I go with Occam's Razor on this.

I think "John" initially reported what he in complete honesty thought he heard WRT to who was yelling for help, but after logical reflection from a time distance away from the incident, realized that he might have been mistaken and couldn't say for sure one way or the other.

Nothing sinister and no evidence of tampering IMO, just human nature.

Also, red sticks out in people's minds, so of he saw the red jacket, he could have easily gotten mixed up on who was wearing it. Witnesses FREQUENTLY give nonsensical and conflicting accounts.

MOO
 
Good morning Papa.

I would love to see that demostrated as well. Should be a sight to see.

I am leaning towards GZ and TM either being in a standing position when TM was shot or GZ standing over him when he was shot.. none of that other stuff make sense to me.

JMO

I agree. If they were standing, though, I would have to assume that GZ had been holding TM at gunpoint for a time prior to the shooting; otherwise why would TM not have been either fighting or running away, rather than standing facing GZ? Perhaps this fits with the MC witness statement about seeing GZ standing by himself prior to seeing TM lying in the ground.

JMO and speculation.
 
Again, I haven't seen a single thing that says Mr. Martin should have any bruising. Would you mind pointing out one? We know it wouldn't be the head slamming, as mentioned above. What else was there? A punch - which I still think was more likely to be the cellphone than a fist, and even if it was a fist there's nothing immediate that tells me the tissue on his knuckles would be bruised. Covering of the mouth? I'm asking you, what do you know that I don't that leads you to believe Mr. Martin would have any injuries at all? I don't care what source it is - anything at all that says "Mr. Martin MUST have injuries if Mr. Zimmerman's story is true, because of _______."

Using your post just as a jumping off place.

Could TM have used the tea can in the bag as a weapon? Could GZ's head wounds have been inflicted from in front (TM reaching around behind his head, from below, in an attempt to get him off)?

ETA: Could the bottom of the tea can have made the curved injury on the lower left back of GZ's head?
 
Using your post just as a jumping off place.

Could TM have used the tea can in the bag as a weapon? Could GZ's head wounds have been inflicted from in front (TM reaching around behind his head, from below, in an attempt to get him off)?

I don't see why not, on first impression, but I don't think any of the witnesses accounts corroborate such a story.
 
There are medical pictures,responders,and also police and EMT reports stating the extensive injuries that a 28 yr old man received within a very short but brutal assault. I do not understand now that documents have been released how it could be stated that George Zimmerman injuries are that he
supposedly suffered a broken nose, two black eyes , head being bashed into the sidewalk that was written above.He did receive these injuries there is proof. I have watched boxing since I was very young and can remember Ali being in the ring looking "Pretty" as he always called himself and his opponent looking a bleeding mess in 1 round. The Length of a Boxing Round for men is 3 min ,of course TM was not a pro boxer but if you have ever watched a match that 3 minutes sure seems like a long time.TM surprised GZ with his first punch and TM did not stop fighting until GZ had no choice but to stop him IMO.Most people do not bruise after death that could be why TM hands didn't bruise.There was nothing supposed about GZ injuries,the fact is he was beaten by TM without a doubt.

Ali wore boxing gloves.
 
IF you listen to the 911 call from that boys sister and him,what he said when the mother was not home is different after the mother got involved.IMO The boys own words on that 911 call show the true events he saw that night.His own words about what he saw before anyone had any time to lead him into changing his story.If I was on a jury I would disregard any of his statements except for that initial call. I also wonder if Mr.Crump had spoken to this boy or his mother before his mother retained a lawyer for her son.Very weird to hire a lawyer because your son saw very little as per his 911 call IMO MOM hopefully will be looking into exactly why the mother needed a lawyer and who might have influenced this kids story.You do not need to hire a lawyer if you feel police "led your son or twisted his words"A call to the prosecutors office explaining what was going on was all that was necessary IMO.They would have handled her complaint. I find getting an attorney for a witness very strange and not something you really would even think of doing IMO.The average family does not have unlimited funds in today's time and I doubt the lawyer is doing it for free.If the mother just told the media she believed the police were trying to lead her son, I am sure the prosecutor's office would have gotten in touch with her since they are the lawyers that are in a sense representing TM and seeking justice on his behalf.This is a very high profile case but I can not remember any other high profile cases where a very limited witness hired their own lawyer.Only way I would part with my hard earned money for a lawyer is if I was afraid the police were trying to involve my son in the actual crime.JMO

BBM. The mother is a well known fitness model. http://www.cherylbrownfit.com/#!home|mainPage
 
Nope, Officer Smith said he overheard the Zimmerman tell the EMT that while he was treating him in the back of the police car.



officersmith2.jpg




http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf


I'm not sure what to think of that. It's not the redacted copy that was released in the mini-doc dump. It also doesn't have Officer Smith's supplemental - so at the very least it's not complete. It's only 3 police reports, and do we have the EMT's report yet? I've been out for a couple days due to construction in the area, so there may be new information that was released that I haven't read.
 
I want to know the answers to those questions too, Izzy.

IMO, If Trayvon had no injuries to his hands except for the small inbrasion and GZ had no injuries to his hands....there was no fight. So what they hell were they doing?

As far as the small inbrasion on the top of GZ nose??? It might have been caused by the same "thing" that caused the small inbrasion on Trayvon's finger.....just a thought.

Who was the witness that said they saw a scuffle? IMO, that's exactly what it is was....Now, I don't believe GZ sustained his injuries by Trayvon hitting him with his hands? I think there was shoving, grabbing, pushing, etc. Not to mention Trayvon didn't even have GZ DNA under his nails. WTH? IMO, even if Trayvon didn't cause GZ injuries to his face, but Trayvon touched him on his face with the bloody nose and all or on the back of the head where blood ran out...he would have at least had DNA under his nails. I don't believe there were punches thrown...Can you picture one person grabbing, trying to take hold of someone and the other person is pushing trying to get loose? I picture Trayvon pushing on GZ trying to get loose as GZ tried to hold onto him. That's why there's no DNA under Trayvon's nails. Didn't GZ have on that jacket?

I got to say, the way that GZ clothes look, especially on the back of his clothing....IMO, GZ's back side never touched the wet grass....So I don't picture GZ EVER on the bottom of that scuffle. JMO

I guess I got a little carried away...sorry...so to stay on topic...

I don't believe any witness who said GZ was on the bottom. JMO

So what would explain the lacerations on the *back* of GZ's head?

My assumption is that one or the other of them started it, but at the 'end' of it, what occurred was that TM punched GZ in the face a time or two - particularly in the nose - knocked him to the ground, straddled him, grabbed his head on either side (by the ears, maybe?), and slammed his head backwards towards the concrete a time or two or three or four.

GZ likely would've been attempting resistance, so it's likely that not every attempt to shove his head backwards would've resulted in hard contact with the concrete.

None of those actions would've resulted in GZ's DNA being under TM's fingernails. They also wouldn't have caused much in the way of abrasions on TM's skin anywhere.

One of my children sustained severe head injuries (a hematoma that required surgery, a concussion, and a skull fracture) from a single 'slam' into concrete by the back of her head... so I'm probably rather sensitive to the potential damage that particular action can do to a person.
 
I think they would call on experts who could describe the type of bruising expected to show up on one's hands after breaking a nose, blacking two eyes, and banging someone's head onto cement.

JMO though

Here's how I think this could easily be explained...

The punch of a fisted hand to someone's face (or specifically, the nose) might or might not cause breakage to skin on knuckles. I think that one or two punches might not leave any marks on the knuckles. Black eyes can be part and parcel of having a broken nose.

A head could be slammed into the concrete by grasping it on either side. This would not result in any part of the hands of the 'slammer' coming into contact with any surface besides the sides of the head / face of the other person.

Those are the two *specific* actions GZ said that TM did - punched him and slammed his head against the concrete.

And it's certainly possible - plausible, even - that TM's knuckles themselves had minimal involvement in that part of the altercation.
 
BBM and snipped for focus.

ITA but then by the same token, there are no injuries to Trayvon's hands supporting him beating up GZ either, except for the one small abrasion that IMO is inconsistent with that scenario.

So hypothetically? If the scuffle did not consist of either one beating up the other?

What was truly going on?

My questions aren't addressed to you personally, just thinking out loud as it were and again jumping off from your post.

Simply MOO but maybe Trayvon wasn't so much punching but trying to get his arms free from GZ who may have been holding onto them.
 
“We heard voices outside,” he said. “At first it sounded like dogs.”

Moments later, when he told his wife to get away from the window, they heard what he called “either a loud grunt -- it sounded like a gunshot, too.”

He came outside with his cellphone and flashlight, which he shined on Zimmerman. He said it had sounded as if Zimmerman were on the phone.

I think he was on the phone because it sounded like he was on the phone….

“Why don’t you call 911?” the man says he asked Zimmerman.

“No, I just got off the phone with them,” Zimmeran reportedly told him. “Am I bleeding?”

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nake...my-wife-i-shot-somebody-li.html#storylink=cpy

So, GZ was on the phone w/LE AFTER the gunshot? Why isn't that in any of the LE reports?
 
So, GZ was on the phone w/LE AFTER the gunshot? Why isn't that in any of the LE reports?

I presume because he wasn't. I am pretty sure Mary C and her roommate claim GZ asked them to call 911.
 
So what would explain the lacerations on the *back* of GZ's head?

My assumption is that one or the other of them started it, but at the 'end' of it, what occurred was that TM punched GZ in the face a time or two - particularly in the nose - knocked him to the ground, straddled him, grabbed his head on either side (by the ears, maybe?), and slammed his head backwards towards the concrete a time or two or three or four.

GZ likely would've been attempting resistance, so it's likely that not every attempt to shove his head backwards would've resulted in hard contact with the concrete.

None of those actions would've resulted in GZ's DNA being under TM's fingernails. They also wouldn't have caused much in the way of abrasions on TM's skin anywhere.

One of my children sustained severe head injuries (a hematoma that required surgery, a concussion, and a skull fracture) from a single 'slam' into concrete by the back of her head... so I'm probably rather sensitive to the potential damage that particular action can do to a person.
bbm... I disagree... even if a bald head was grabbed by the ears Im thinkin the rest of the fingers would still have to come in contact with the head behind the ears or the back of the ears themselves, to get a grip tight enough to bash a head into the ground... im thinkin it would be more than a two finger earlobe hold jmo
 
bbm... I disagree... even if a bald head was grabbed by the ears Im thinkin the rest of the fingers would still have to come in contact with the head behind the ears or the back of the ears themselves, to get a grip tight enough to bash a head into the ground... im thinkin it would be more than a two finger earlobe hold jmo
In a brutal fast fight you would think Trayvon would have a least a tiny bit of Georges DNA under his fingernails with all the punching and and slamming and grabbing alleged.
 
IMO, it just depends on how you look at it..The fact that Trayvon had no injuries only the small abrasion on his finger, tells me that Trayvon never laid a hand on GZ. GZ supposedly suffered a broken nose, two black eyes , head being bashed into the sidewalk but yet Trayvon avoided these attacks with his hands? The prosection emphasized this beating resulting from Trayvon using his "hands". IMO,, they know that to sustain those types of injuries that GZ had, using your hands, there would be evidence of that beating....Yet, Trayvon had none.

I think they would call on experts who could describe the type of bruising expected to show up on one's hands after breaking a nose, blacking two eyes, and banging someone's head onto cement.

JMO though

IF the "scuffle," the "wresting" and "fistfight" that have been reported, in the initial 911 calls and first interview statements, was actually TM "bashing GZ's head into the cement" and breaking GZ's nose, the
ME would expect to find evidence to support this BUT:

There was NO GZ DNA found on TM's hands, fingers or under his fingernails. There was no redness, swelling or bruising noted on TM's hands or knuckles. (GZ had his own blood on both the front of his face, back of his head and behind his ear lobes. Some of this should have transferred to TM's hands if he hand beaten GZ anywhere about the head or face.)

Just one small, 1/4" by 1/8" abrasion (tear) on TM's left ring finger in between a phalange and the top of his knuckles.

As to GZ, he had no contusions on the back of his head noted by LE who transported him, the Official LE photos (taken at the police station,) the EMT or the Family Medical Provider.

As to his nose:
The mark on the side of the bridge of his nose, slightly diagonal and vertical, with the small gauge of skin/scabbed appears to have been caused by something other than a fist or elbow.

Shoes: no information has been released, to date, which would give an indication as to whether there was GZ's DNA on the toe or heal of TM's shoes.

Knees of TM's Tan colored pants: No info as to whether there was GZ DNA of any kind, on TM's pants front or back.

Flashlight: No info has been released as to any DNA found on that item.

The Gun: No TM DNA or fingerprints were found on the handle of the gun and that was the only part that tested positive for the presence of possible blood.


Possibilities, based on the witness accounts, to explain the injuries to both TM and GZ and the lack of evidence or injuries on the same:

Bushes (No evidence reported from the bushes near the two scenes/"T" of sidewalks or where TM lay dead
Flashlight (no forensics released)
Gun
TM knee (no forensics released)
TM elbow (no forensics released)
TM foot (no forensics released)

It is curious that GZ does have a small knick on the outside of his right pinky finger between the top phalanges and the middle phalanges. TM's was on the left hand. If two people are face to face in a struggle the two injuries would be on the same side.
 
I think people are watching too much CSI. Forensic evidence never is going to be all perfect like it is in the movie.
Which appears to be what some expect around here.
 
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