WV - Sodder Family - 5 children, Christmas eve 1945 - #2

[catsy101]

Unidentified White Male Located on January 14, 1953 in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Cause of death was homicide; the victim and his unidentified brother both died as a result of blunt force trauma to their skulls.
Both victims had been deceased since approximately the fall of 1947.

Vital Statistics

• Estimated age: 7 - 10 years old
• Approximate Height and Weight: N/A
• Distinguishing Characteristics: Both children are thought to have had light hair.
• Dentals: Available
• Clothing: The boys' clothing had deteriorated by the time their remains were discovered. Both children were wearing brown Oxfords with white crepe rubber soles, identical belts and leather aviation helmets were also found on them, only one flying helmet had goggles. Both wore a type of zipper jacket or sweater.
  Case History
  The victim and his unidentified brother were located in a brush-filled area of Stanley Park in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada in January 1953.
  Their heights, weights and eye colors are undetermined due to skeletal remains located at the scene.
  The children were covered by what appeared to be a woman's raincape. The bodies were laying in a straight line with their feet almost close together and their heads at opposite directions.
  Found among the bodies was a little blue tin lunchbox, the paper lining rotted to a pulpy mess. Also there was a small worn rusty hatchet of the type used by shinglers or lathers, it's handle broken in 2 pieces. The axe was most likely used as the murder weapon in these cases, as one victim's skull had a wound to the back of the head which the axe fit in exact proportions. The other skull was fractured by what may have been the hammer of the axe.
  The victim described in Case File 69UMBC was initially believed to be a female child; however, DNA testing conducted in 1998 proved that victim was indeed male and the brother of this victim.
  
  Vancouver police wish to identify a woman & 2 boys who may or may not have been involved with this case. In 1949 or 1950, a man who worked in a logging camp, who was with his buddy, picked up a woman with 2 children. During the ride, she had told the men that she had been in trouble with the Mission police for vagrancy charges. They learned that either one or both her children at sometime attended Cedar Valley school and that she lived on Cherry Street in Mission, B.C. There is the possibility that the woman had meant "Vag C", which in the criminal code at that time meant prostitution. The only description available for this woman is that she had "red hair". The 2 boys who were with her were about 6 & 7 years old and at least one wore an aviator flying helmet. Because of this lead, the police managed to find the family name of "Grant", but this lead was exhausted after speaking to surviving family members.
  

 

[catsy101]

Unknown.

He told me that the age of the boys could be as old as 15 and as young as 5. This is all guesswork when they find bones. Also the light hair thing is simply guess work. They play the odds, meaning if the child is caucasion, they guess it is more likely they had lighter hair. Meaning not black. Also they guess on the type of clothing the child wears, etc. The year is awfully close to the year these children supposedly went missing. Now look at these.

Reconstructed Image of Victim
Now, ignore the hair cut. Look at the placement of the eyes, the shape of the chin, nose, and mouth, and cheeks and the ear shape. Compare this picture to this photograph of Maurice.

Sodder, circa 1945

 

[catsy101]

Reconstructed Image of Victim
Unidentified White Male Located on January 14, 1953 in Vancouver, British Columbia Canada
Cause of death was homicide; the victim and his brother both died as a result of blunt force trauma to their skulls.
Both victims had been deceased since approximately the fall of 1947.

Vital Statistics

• Estimated age: 7 - 10 years old
• Approximate Height and Weight: N/A
• Distinguishing Characteristics: Light hair.
• Dentals: Available
• Clothing: The boys' clothing had deteriorated by the time their remains were discovered. Both children were wearing brown Oxfords with white crepe rubber soles, identical belts and leather aviation helmets were also found on them, only one flying helmet had goggles. Both wore a type of zipper jacket or sweater. The coat on this child had a grey-green lining and tie strings around the waist.

Okay, next one. Here is a picture of the brother who was next to him dead. Take a look now at Louis. Ignore the haircut.
The Doe Network:
Case File 2106DFWV

Sodder, circa 1945
Louis Erico Sodder
Missing since December 24, 1945 from Fayetteville, Fayette County, West Virginia
Classification: Lost, Injured, Missing

Vital Statistics

• Date Of Birth: circa 1935
• Age at Time of Disappearance: 10 years old
• Distinguishing Characteristics: White male of Italian decent. Black/brown hair; dark eyes.

 

[Teresa Larson]

Now Please I need to know if anybody knows what the children recieved from their sister who worked at the five and dime store.

Why do you think that makes any difference in the disappearance of the Sodder Children? I am sure it was nothing flammable.

 

[fox1950]

I think that one good theory over what happened is this--

Mr. Cipriani died on October 22, 1944 perhaps oweing some of his associates money. Mr. Sodder had refused to settle the estate of his wife's father. This we know by the statement of Mr. X who threatened Mr. Sodder by saying "I see you will not buy life insurance for your children and you refuse to settle the estate of your wife's father. Your house will burn and your children will be destroyed." Perhaps this was not a threat at all by Mr. X and he had no involvement in the crime. Maybe he had just heard rumors and he was warning Mr. Sodder.

Perhaps the Cipriani's knew this also, had no power to change the situation out of fear the whole family would be destroyed. Could it be that the mother and brothers of Mrs. Sodder knew when that this was about to come down around midnight and retrieved all the children they could from the house so if it burned the little ones would be saved. Maybe the phone call was set up to wake Mrs. Sodder so she would be awake when it all came down and the family would get out of the house? Maybe this is why their were sightings of the children in Flordia at Mrs. Sodder's brother's house. Maybe out of fear the Cipriani's never told and took it to their graves out of fear that if the story came out something far worse would happen.

 

[catsy101]

Because the two bodies that were found had on aviation helmets. I wonder if the sister gave them aviation helmets.

Also::: Here's the thing. When children go missing one of the first questions a good police officer will ask is what was the child wearing? Were they playing with something? Did they disappear with anything that could be identifying? Like it would help if a little girl who goes missing had a doll with her, or was wearing a backpack. The reason no one asked these questions was because everyone believed the children were dead. So no one asked what they were wearing or if they took toys with them, and because the house burned to the ground no one would know if they took anything with them.

 

[catsy101]

I sent my theory to the Doe network. They tell me now a panel will review these cases and decide if there is enough evidence to ask the youngest sister to give some of her DNA. Best case scenario, the bodies are not Maurice's and Louis's and we are back to square one. Worst case, it is the boys, and we still have three missing girls on our hands.

But the guy who wrote me from the Doe Network told me no one has linked these cases, and that it is definitly possible, which is why it is going before the board. God People, this isn't the answer I wanted. I kind of hope I am wrong.

 

[christine2448]

Because the two bodies that were found had on aviation helmets. I wonder if the sister gave them aviation helmets.

IIUC the TOD is estimated 1947...that would be 2 yrs after their disappearance. Would they still have the same hats given 2 yrs ago? Could they still fit those hats?

 

[luckyducky]

Hi, this story is facinating to me. The poor parents must have been devastated to lose their children like that. Thinking that they may have still been alive must have been so hard and must have haunted them until the day they died. Catsy, I don't know about those 2 boys they found in Stanley park - Vancouver is a heck of a long way away from Fayeteville. I suppose stranger things have happened though.

 

[AmandaBrown23]

Hi I dont know if anyone has talked about this I didnt have time to read back through the pages, but the parents recieved a picture in the mail of an adult which looks an awful lot like Maurice all grown up. This would suggest that he was kidnapped instead of murdered. The info is on the charleyproject website, I am providing the link

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/sodder_maurice.html

 

[gardenmom]

I have been away from WS'S for quite a while due to a lot of things going on in my family & personal life. I simply did not have the time to devote the time that I had been doing. I did check in occasionaly and keep up with the cases that I have been so involved in. I am glad to see the activity on the Sodder thread again. I am waiting to hear from Jennie(Granddaughter) in reference to some information to see if it is ok to post. Hopefully I will be able to soon. I will be trying to catch up in the next couple of days and am checking on getting a copy of the back of the picture.
I see that there are several new members to the thread...Welcome! To those of you who have been here since the beginning, I am glad to see that you are hanging in there.

It's nice to see you again. I hope things are OK and look forward to seeing you around again.

 

[catsy101]

The way this works is that when the bodies are found they are looked over and given some tests. Those tests do not give an exact date of when the person died. When the remains are skeletal, it is up to much guess work. The date of these bodies are just the best guess that technology can give us. The date is quite close. I propose that if this is the boys, they died a week or two after they were taken, and the date of death is just an estimate as it states in the file on the Doe network. Estimated death date is that year, not actual date.

 

[catsy101]

as for the picture, it could have been a hoax. It could have been any number of things. It could have been a picture someone found and believed was Louis and sent to the parents, thinking it could help. I don't know how the picture fits in just yet, and I intend to find out. But I think those children were taken far away if they were abducted. This way no one would recognize them and send them back to their parents. If they didn't die in the fire, I think it is quite believable to say someone took them far from their home, and than either could not sell them or something else, and than decided to just get rid of them.

 

[Teresa Larson]

I think that one good theory over what happened is this--

Mr. Cipriani died on October 22, 1944 perhaps oweing some of his associates money. Mr. Sodder had refused to settle the estate of his wife's father. This we know by the statement of Mr. X who threatened Mr. Sodder by saying "I see you will not buy life insurance for your children and you refuse to settle the estate of your wife's father. Your house will burn and your children will be destroyed." Perhaps this was not a threat at all by Mr. X and he had no involvement in the crime. Maybe he had just heard rumors and he was warning Mr. Sodder.

Perhaps the Cipriani's knew this also, had no power to change the situation out of fear the whole family would be destroyed. Could it be that the mother and brothers of Mrs. Sodder knew when that this was about to come down around midnight and retrieved all the children they could from the house so if it burned the little ones would be saved. Maybe the phone call was set up to wake Mrs. Sodder so she would be awake when it all came down and the family would get out of the house? Maybe this is why their were sightings of the children in Flordia at Mrs. Sodder's brother's house. Maybe out of fear the Cipriani's never told and took it to their graves out of fear that if the story came out something far worse would happen.

Ok I am totally lost where did all of this information come from??? I have never heard or read about any of this until now.

 

[fox1950]

Ok I am totally lost where did all of this information come from??? I have never heard or read about any of this until now.

First of all I am glad to see Shadow and granddaughter back. Prayers for granddaughter's father. I hope you will be able to post more soon. Teresa, I admire your work very much.

What I posted was only my theory as to what may have happened.

The information that Mr. Sodder was threatened/warned by a former business associate a few months prior to the fire is on Thread 1 and also in the book that George Bragg wrote. Mr. Cipriani ran a store at Smithers prior to his death-some felt there was more going on in the back but that has never been proven. One writer on the "Hey Martha" board which no longer is active wrote that Ms. Cipriani was in her yard a great deal of the time prior to the fire, but stayed inside after. There was a lot of unsavory things going on in Smithers during that period of time (Hearsay).

Mr. X was never investigated for making this threat to Mr. Sodder after the fire occurred. Why? Maybe the community at large knew this was going to happen and that Mr. X had gotten wind of it, just like they had , and had no power to change it. And he (Mr. X) had no power whatsoever to change it. Perhaps he was instrumental in saving the children that supposely burned in the fire. It is also written on the first thread and in the Detective magazines about Mr.Sodder hearing that the children were in Flordia with Mrs. Sodder's brother but when he sent an investigator, the Cipriani's had birth certificates for all the children in the home, and it was no longer pursued. I believe, that if the children didn't die in the fire, which I am not totally convinced yet that they did not, that perhaps the Cipriani's helped saved as many of the children as they could and perhaps the children were in Florida for a while, and when the Cipriani's got wind that Mr. Sodder was sending someone to check the children were removed from the home. Why? To save their behinds to put it mildly. There was a call made to Mrs. Sodder prior to the fire starting which was a wrong number. Mrs. Sodder always felt the call was strange. (First thread, and detective magazines.) Maybe this person knew approximately when the fire was going to happen and was trying to wake Mrs. Sodder so she would not be sound asleep when when the fire occurred, and the family would be saved. When Mrs. Sodder got up after the call, the door was open, she saw Marion on the couch, the lights were on, and the shades were not pulled. Things she found very odd, since the well-behaved children always followed the rules and took care of everything before they went to bed. Could someone they knew had come to the door and they left suddenly. (First thread, Charleston Gazette).

I hope this helps. Have a great day.

As for the picture, Catsy, here are some of my thoughts:

1. A detective magazine had just come out a few months before telling the Sodder story. Someone seen the picture and thought it would be a good joke (very morbid joke) to send the picture because the person in the picture looked a whole lot like the Sodder children. We all know people can be cruel.
2. It is Louis and he had mailed it to someone he knew and someone else got their hands on it and was trying to relieve some of Mrs. Sodder's grief. Remember it was mailed from Central City, Ky. and bore on the back what we have thought to be a zip code in Italy-A90132. Maybe this was added on as a hint to Mrs. Sodder where Louis was.
3. It is Maurice-sent to Louis, thus the Louis Sodder on the back. Perhaps they referred to themselves as "Ilil boys" and Louis was renamed Frankie after the fire.-Thus the "I love brother Frankie"

Thanks, Catsy.

 

[catsy101]

that was going to be my next question. Ilil boys... Did the boys have nicknames for each other? Was there some sort of radio show called Ilil boys they listened to? Or something of that nature? Could Brother Frankie be the name of a radio show announcer during the time period? What I am trying to find out is, could this picture be legit? Something only the boys knew about?

 

[Shadow205]

Now Please I need to know if anybody knows what the children recieved from their sister who worked at the five and dime store.

I spoke with Granddaughter this morning and she said that it is unknown what the gifts were from their sister.

I had hoped to be able to post the back of the photo to show what was written but it is unknown what happened to the photo after Jennie's death. I do not recall Jonathan saying if he has the photo or not. Perhaps he will check in here and answer that question.

I don't want to cause to much of a stir but there is a "possible" and I stress "possible" lead. Someone has made contact and claim to have some information as to what happened. That is all that I am at liberty to say at this time but will post more as soon as I can. I am not trying to keep anyone out of the loop but there is some information that needs to be checked out before posting it.

 

[fox1950]

I
I don't want to cause to much of a stir but there is a "possible" and I stress "possible" lead. Someone has made contact and claim to have some information as to what happened. That is all that I am at liberty to say at this time but will post more as soon as I can. I am not trying to keep anyone out of the loop but there is some information that needs to be checked out before posting it.

You are great! Please let us know as soon as you can! I am so glad you are back on the board.

 

[christine2448]

I spoke with Granddaughter this morning and she said that it is unknown what the gifts were from their sister.

I had hoped to be able to post the back of the photo to show what was written but it is unknown what happened to the photo after Jennie's death. I do not recall Jonathan saying if he has the photo or not. Perhaps he will check in here and answer that question.

I don't want to cause to much of a stir but there is a "possible" and I stress "possible" lead. Someone has made contact and claim to have some information as to what happened. That is all that I am at liberty to say at this time but will post more as soon as I can. I am not trying to keep anyone out of the loop but there is some information that needs to be checked out before posting it.

Let me make it known that this is at request of Grandaughter, Shadow is not trying to hold info.

 

[Teresa Larson]

First of all I am glad to see Shadow and granddaughter back. Prayers for granddaughter's father. I hope you will be able to post more soon. Teresa, I admire your work very much.

What I posted was only my theory as to what may have happened.

The information that Mr. Sodder was threatened/warned by a former business associate a few months prior to the fire is on Thread 1 and also in the book that George Bragg wrote. Mr. Cipriani ran a store at Smithers prior to his death-some felt there was more going on in the back but that has never been proved. One writer on the "Hey Martha" board which no longer is active wrote that Ms. Cipriani was in her yard a great deal of the time prior to the fire, but stayed inside after. There was a lot of unsavory things going on in Smithers during that period of time (Hearsay).

Mr. X was never investigated for making this threat to Mr. Sodder after the fire occurred. Why? Maybe the community at large knew this was going to happen and that Mr. X had gotten wind of it, just like they had , and had no power to change it. And he (Mr. X) had no power whatsoever to change it. Perhaps he was instrumental in saving the children that supposely burned in the fire. It is also written on the first thread and in the Detective magazines about Mr.Sodder hearing that the children were in Flordia with Mrs. Sodder's brother but when he sent an investigator, the Cipriani's had birth certificates for all the children in the home, and it was no longer pursued. I believe, that if the children didn't die in the fire, which I am not totally convinced yet that they did not, that perhaps the Cipriani's helped saved as many of the children as they could and perhaps the children were in Florida for a while, and when the Cipriani's got wind that Mr. Sodder was sending someone to check the children were removed from the home. Why? To save their behinds to put it mildly. There was a call made to Mrs. Sodder prior to the fire starting which was a wrong number. Mrs. Sodder always felt the call was strange. (First thread, and detective magazines.) Maybe this person knew approximately when the fire was going to happen and was trying to wake Mrs. Sodder so she would not be sound asleep when when the fire occurred, and the family would be saved. When Mrs. Sodder got up after the call, the door was open, she saw Marion on the couch, the lights were on, and the shades were not pulled. Things she found very odd, since the well-behaved children always followed the rules and took care of everything before they went to bed. Could someone they knew had come to the door and they left suddenly. (First thread, Charleston Gazette).

I hope this helps. Have a great day.

As for the picture, Catsy, here are some of my thoughts:

1. A detective magazine had just come out a few months before telling the Sodder story. Someone seen the picture and thought it would be a good joke (very morbid joke) to send the picture because the person in the picture looked a whole lot like the Sodder children. We all know people can be cruel.
2. It is Louis and he had mailed it to someone he knew and someone else got their hands on it and was trying to relieve some of Mrs. Sodder's grief. Remember it was mailed from Central City, Ky. and bore on the back what we have thought to be a zip code in Italy-A90132. Maybe this was added on as a hint to Mrs. Sodder where Louis was.
3. It is Maurice-sent to Louis, thus the Louis Sodder on the back. Perhaps they referred to themselves as "Ilil boys" and Louis was renamed Frankie after the fire.-Thus the "I love brother Frankie"

Thanks, Catsy.

I thought I read every post in both threads Did I miss something? Because I haver never heard about any of this Can you tell me about which page this was on to save me from having to read it all over again lol I don't ever remember reading about the Sodder's getting a threat from someone. Thanks!