17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #20

[jaded cat]

How does someone know when the other person is going to stop beating on them? How can anyone know how far the person attacking them will go? Will they stop beating you when you fall to the ground? When you are unconscious? When you are dead? There is no fair in a fight. If you are being attacked your goal is to save yourself. If you attack someone and are on top of them and have the upper hand do you think they will keep taking the beating instead of brandishing any weapon they have on them?
If GZ pulled out his gun while being punched on the ground and TM backed off and GZ still shot him then that is not self defense. But if GZ pulled out his gun and TM grabbed it and they struggled over it and TM was shot then I would consider that self defense. Mooo

And with that circular reasoning, we are back to why GZ followed him in the first place and why was GZ carrying a gun in direct opposition to the rules of NW?

:moo:

 

[legalmania]

I'm not doubting you, just would like to know where you heard this so I can watch or look up more information. Were concealed handguns involved? Thanks!

This is what I found:
That, of course, is the prosecutor's description. The Times also reports that the law "is increasingly used by gang members fighting gang members, drug dealers battling drug dealers and people involved in road rage encounters." Why should any of those situations preclude a legitimate self-defense claim? Drug dealers do get attacked, after all, and their line of work should not mean they have no right to resist (leaving aside the point that such violence is an utterly predictable feature of the black market created by prohibition). Even if there were a prima facie case that the "stand your ground" principle helps guilty people more often than innocent ones, that would not be the end of the matter. Our system of justice deliberately makes it hard to convict people, with the understanding that some guilty people will therefore go free. "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," Blackstone famously declared, and while his ratio may be debatable, the general thrust of his argument usually appeals to progressives, except when the right to armed self-defense is involved.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/debate-over-stand-your-ground-self-defense-gun-laws

 

[vlpate]

If you google florida supreme court decisions regarding SYG you can read the full text of recent decisions. I know you've always wanted to do that lol. I haven't read a compilation, but I read a few cases tonight and some of them clearly involved criminal behavior. Which is not to say that the criminal *won* in every case.

I also learned that charges can be challenged pre-trial under SYG by its terms on a motion to dismiss, and that the Court (not the jury) makes the determination, which is unique to SYG afaik. To if GZ is charged, he will be able to make such a motion and the court should consider whether there is a genuine issue of material fact as to whether the SYG applies. If not, the charges must be dismissed. I imagine that's almost an impossible burden to meet, but it's an extra step in the defense that I wasn't aware of.

Well, I think you answered my question - the cases being cited are case of individuals being arrested for manslaughter/murder/etc., but they use the SYG as their defense....which is a defense anyone could use, I suppose - see if it flies. In GZ's case, the prosecutor didn't feel there was enough probable cause to arrest for manslaughter/murder/etc., and decided the evidence was there to prove GZ was within his right to defend himself and let him go. Under SYG, a person cannot be arrested - if he or she is arrested, and found not guilty later under the SYG defense, LE will have to pay all his or her expenses, including attorney fees and lost wages. That's how I understand it.

Thanks for the tip on where to find the cases

 

[highflyer]

I wish the same could be said for the Zimmerman family. My daughter is almost the same age as GZ - it would be horrible to hear someone like Jackson say she had chased someone down with a gun and murdered them in cold blood - not to mention the death threats and congress people standing in front of signs calling him a murderer and a racist vigilante - it would have been better to let the SA do her job. JMO:moo:

The problem is that it appears to have been swept under the rug when it happened. Without all the attention to bring this front and center SA would not be here to do her job.

 

[Karmady]

I think the Zimmerman family would have been better served if they'd retained competent lawyers in the first place and kept their mouths shut. The first clown they sent to be on TV was awful. The letter the family sent was ridiculous. The new website is a major PR mistake. All they had to do was hold the high ground. Anyone who says "but some of my friends are black" doesn't realize how racist that sounds.

GZ did shoot and kill TM. That is a fact. It can also be considered murder and may well be in this case. So the signs were not without some basis in fact.

I'm afraid for the verdict and I'm afraid for the impact on this country, regardless of what the decision is. It should never have come to this.

I don't have ANY black friends and I'm not a racist. I have zero black neighbors, colleagues, sports parents, etc. That's just my demographic. I don't consider saying that some of one's friends are black sounds racist at all. To me, it sounds like a refutation of the assertion that you hate black people. Plus, iirc, that's not what the letter said. I believe it said that GZ was an activist in support of the black community in connection with a specific incident with racial overtones. I'd be pretty incredulous and po'd myself if I'd just participated in a march for Trayvon, for example, and was accused of having committed a racist hate crime the following week, or year for that matter. jmo

 

[Yoda]

And with that circular reasoning, we are back to why GZ followed him in the first place and why was GZ carrying a gun in direct opposition to the rules of NW?

:moo:

GZ was running an errand and saw someone he thought was suspicious. He called police, lost site of TM and probably wanted to keep an eye on what he was doing and where he was going with no intention of a confrontation. He has the same rights as TM to walk wherever he wants whenever he wants. His actions of following were not breaking any laws. They could have spent all night walking back and forth within one foot of each other and neither would have been doing anything illegal. As soon as one of them set hands on the other that changed. That person is the one who broke the law. Moo

 

[jaded cat]

I don't have ANY black friends and I'm not a racist. I have zero black neighbors, colleagues, sports parents, etc. That's just my demographic. I don't consider saying that some of one's friends are black sounds racist at all. To me, it sounds like a refutation of the assertion that you hate black people. Plus, iirc, that's not what the letter said. I believe it said that GZ was an activist in support of the black community in connection with a specific incident with racial overtones. I'd be pretty incredulous and po'd myself if I'd just participated in a march for Trayvon, for example, and was accused of having committed a racist hate crime the following week, or year for that matter. jmo

Karmady, my opinion on that comes from my years in Texas and hearing people do that all the time, with the burning cross behind them. It is in no way intended to be the final judgement on people who have friends who are black, volunteer at events to support black causes, socialize with friends of all races or anything similar. I refer to my experience only and apologize profusely if I offended you or anyone else on this board.

 

[vlpate]

I think the Zimmerman family would have been better served if they'd retained competent lawyers in the first place and kept their mouths shut. The first clown they sent to be on TV was awful. The letter the family sent was ridiculous. The new website is a major PR mistake. All they had to do was hold the high ground. Anyone who says "but some of my friends are black" doesn't realize how racist that sounds.

GZ did shoot and kill TM. That is a fact. It can also be considered murder and may well be in this case. So the signs were not without some basis in fact.

I'm afraid for the verdict and I'm afraid for the impact on this country, regardless of what the decision is. It should never have come to this.

Again, much more respect has been paid TM's family. Just a week ago everyone was going on about why doesn't his family defend him, why doesn't GZ speak up and defend himself? Where's George??? LOL You are 100% correct, everyone should have taken the high road - everyone. IMO

 

[jaded cat]

GZ was running an errand and saw someone he thought was suspicious. He called police, lost site of TM and probably wanted to keep an eye on what he was doing and where he was going with no intention of a confrontation. He has the same rights as TM to walk wherever he wants whenever he wants. His actions of following were not breaking any laws. They could have spent all night walking back and forth within one foot of each other and neither would have been doing anything illegal. As soon as one of them set hands on the other that changed. That person is the one who broke the law. Moo

It can't be both ways, Yoda. I've seen it reported that he was acting in his capacity as a member of NW and/or he was on a personal errand. You are correct that he has just as many rights as TM. It becomes an issue if GZ was acting in the capacity as a NW member, as he should not have been carrying a weapon. The CCW isn't a right to use your weapon under all circumstances. NW rules don't allow you to become an instant cop.

 

[Karmady]

Karmady, my opinion on that comes from my years in Texas and hearing people do that all the time, with the burning cross behind them. It is in no way intended to be the final judgement on people who have friends who are black, volunteer at events to support black causes, socialize with friends of all races or anything similar. I refer to my experience only and apologize profusely if I offended you or anyone else on this board.

I appreciate that. And I appreciate that peoples' backgrounds color their opinions, etc. I am not offended at all. I think it's beneficial for everyone to consider and try to understand everyone else's pov to get a deeper understanding of the issues. And my comments are not personally directed at you and certainly not intended to be offensive, either. I hope you did not take them that way. We're all in this together

 

[Yoda]

March 8th. First big media conference for TM's parents. At the same time Lee said they were still investigating and that they should have the findings in the next week on manslaughter charges. Within the next week the mayor had authorized the release of 911 calls and the media circus came to town. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...g-police-headquarters-investigation-next-week

 

[legalmania]

Who's everyone? Are you saying everyone including criminals? If you can get all criminals to use rubber bullets,stun guns and pepper spray instead of live ammo when they commit their crimes, then I'm with you.

Especially criminals, just think how many people would be alive if every citizen had access to rubber bullets only? The one I want to start with is John Lennon, John Kennedy ect. To know they would have been sore but would have gotten up. I would get the criminals to use rubber bullets or non deadly defense weapons by enforcing a law that if lead bullets are used it's an mandatory life in prison, or some punishment that would make them paranoid about using lead bullets. Just a thought and MOO.

 

[Donjeta]

In the end it comes down to, (IMO) no matter how many black friends you have: If you see a black stranger walking, doing nothing in particular and your automatic first thought is, "that man is here, he is black, he must be up to no good because no blacks should be allowed to walk these streets without my express permission, I must call the cops to get rid of him although there is no evidence that he's committing no crimes that I can tell, except that he's black and he's in my neighborhood"... then you're a racist.

Friends are people you are familiar with and you may have overcome your prejudices with them, being confronted with the evidence that they're quite nice, but if it's a stranger you don't have anything to work with except your subconscious attitudes.



There are black people living in the residences, ¨they have children, they have relatives, they have black friends coming over. Some of the white people have black friends and relatives visiting them. GZ had no valid reason to think every black person is a burglar until proven otherwise but he did.

 

[legalmania]

Well hopefully today we will hear something from the Special Prosecutor. It will be interesting whatever the outcome is. Goodnight all ,hope to talk again tomorrow.fftobed:

 

[Chris_Texas]

I wish the same could be said for the Zimmerman family. My daughter is almost the same age as GZ - it would be horrible to hear someone like Jackson say she had chased someone down with a gun and murdered them in cold blood - not to mention the death threats and congress people standing in front of signs calling him a murderer and a racist vigilante - it would have been better to let the SA do her job. JMO:moo:

If it happens that anyone in law enforcement does their job in this case, it will have only been due to the public outcry. As it stands today, the only change has been the agency issuing the empty press releases. Trayvon is still dead, his family still has no answers, and blacks still live in a nation in which equal justice means it's equally as bad today as it was yesterday.

In my opinion.

 

[Yoda]

It can't be both ways, Yoda. I've seen it reported that he was acting in his capacity as a member of NW and/or he was on a personal errand. You are correct that he has just as many rights as TM. It becomes an issue if GZ was acting in the capacity as a NW member, as he should not have been carrying a weapon. The CCW isn't a right to use your weapon under all circumstances. NW rules don't allow you to become an instant cop.

I agree. Media has reported several different versions of almost every aspect of this case. IMO I am not sure how much strength I put into the nw rules. Are the rules strictly enforced? Who enforces them? Or are they just guidelines/recommendations? I view the nw rules like the neighborhood pool rules. There to let people know what is expected and for insurance reasons, but not enforceable in any way. If I am wrong let me know. The nw may be much more formal then I thought. And if so, then could GZ breaking nw rules really disallow the self defense claim even if he was attacked? I would think that would make the nw liable then? (Just trying to sort the nw importance out.) tia

 

[fran]

Going to close things up for the night. We'll be open for posting in the morning on this thread, as soon as a mod has a chance to check in.

Thank you all for your participation!

:seeya:

fran

 

[mercuriod]

I think to do it this way is alright if not I'll find out.

Martin's family has established the Justice for Trayvon Martin Foundation which is raising money "to support awareness of civil rights, social justice and the quality of life for young black men," according to a website that said it has collected nearly $21,000 (NZ$25,499) as of today.

http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/trayvon-martin-shooter-launches-fund-raising-website-4824895

Starting a foundation to support awareness of civil rights, social justice and the quality of life for young black men is a BIG, HUGE difference than what vlpate stated, he/she stated that TM's parents were not working and had a website taking donations for their living expenses and had raised over $10000 for their personal living expenses. Still waiting on his/her reply to the multiple requests for proof to back up his/her statement of that "fact".

 

[Elley Mae]

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/041012-shots-fired-at-sanford-police-car


Shots were fired at a Sanford Police Department car early Tuesday morning. The car was parked in the same area where the Trayvon Martin shooting took place.

 

[Elley Mae]

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...er-prosecutor-weighs-trayvon-martin-case?lite

"The prosecutor will have to strip away the emotion of it and get down to what happened and from there see if it was justified or not," Mairs said.