17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #16

[imamaze]

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Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.

I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:

At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.

Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information

Hope that helps clear this up.

Please bump as needed.



WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
__________________

:bump:

We are going through and removing posts against TOS again...

No attacking other members for posting an opinion, no attacking Trayvon, his family, and George. Its fine to discuss and give an opinion with the FACTS as we know them. You can post a theory based on the FACTS as we know them at this time. If someone asks for a link, please provide it. If you are stating something as fact provide a link.

Come on, lets discuss this case like we know we are suppose to.

If you have any questions you can pm me or any Mod. Thank you.

Ima

 

[suzihawk]

His good friend Frank Taafe, the one that GZ sent a thank you too, the one that GZ must approve of since he sent that thank you, seems to have changed his story from the burglaries have been committed by many or mostly blacks, to now they were "all" committed by blacks. There was a post today that this claim is being disputed.

His good friend Frank Taafe, the one he sent that thank you to, has pretty much said that GZ had had it, he was fed up. GZ's own words, Trayvon was one of the a****** that always gets away, he was an effin ****.

Snipped for length (although an excellent post overall, IMO)

Speaking of GZ's good buddy, Frank Taafe... he was yet again featured on one of the news programs last night. Please don't ask which one. They're all running together.

Paraphrasing here... He was again talking about all the burglaries in his neighborhood committed by young black men. The reporter said, "So he was following TM because he thought he was another black robber?" To which Taafe responded with a smug look, "Well, If you plant corn, you get corn."

You should have seen look on the faces of the other members on the panel. :what: They were incredulous.

Although the quote for Taafe is dead on accurate, since I'm paraphrasing, I'll add JMO, MOO, IMO, etc.

 

[Sensei]

Weapons training? How does that relate to being told "we don't need you to do that"? Following a person is not escalating a situation, but what TM may have done, attacking him, is. I don't think his actions created a situation that had any forsseable consequences...he got out of his car and was accosted by TM (yes, TM spoke to him first).

I refer you once again to the information that George Zimmerman had to be aware of and sign when he got his permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.
3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html


If Zimmerman thought as his 911 call clearly indicated, that Martin had a gun or a weapon, then he was wrong to get out of the car. He clearly over reacted to the situation by getting out of the car. I still have seen NO credible evidence that would indicate that Travon Martin approached him first, or that Travon Martin punched hit or attacked Zimmerman first. Yet Trayvon Martin is dead, from a bullet fired by George Zimmerman, who was following someone and carrying a loaded weapon somone moreover who was not committing a crime.

I stand by my assessment that the results of George Zimmermans decisions that night were entirely foreseeable and preventable, but only by George Zimmerman IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[marlame]

GZ obviously thought TM was acting suspiciously. He did the right thing by calling LE. There were 8 recent break ins in the neighborhood so why wouldn't he be suspicious?

GZ did the right thing by calling LE...Yes, but it is what he did following his 911 call that is in question. Being suspicious is reasonable but following Trayvon after being informed not to do that is where this whole situation took a turn for the worst. :tears:

JMHO~

 

[csziggy]

This is what I don't understand about the SYG law and perhaps someone can it explain it to me.

GZ starts walking after TM and then approaches and asks TM 'what are you doing here'. Words are exchanged and TM attacks GZ. Is the SYG law void because GZ actually got out and approached TM with a question?

I'm not saying this is how it went down, but if it did go down like that, how does the SYG law apply?

That is irrelevant and has NOTHING to do with what happened. But IMO since GZ was the one following and who continued to follow, GZ was the aggressor and TM was "standing his ground".

According to both GZ and Trayvon's girlfriend, at some point TM asked GZ "Why are you following me?" or words to that effect. That is not the action of someone whose main intent is to be aggressive.

In GZ's version (as narrated by the lead detective to Tracy Martin - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSL2E8F31ZX20120403) GZ denied following TM which according to that story was a lie. Then according to Gthe lead detective, GZ continued to follow TM. I don't care who TM was, white, black hispanic, male female, continuing to follow is threatening. And that is from GZ's own version!

In the girlfriend's version, GZ did not answer TM but countered with the question, "What are you doing here?" http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T3xhntmP_Kg

In either case, WHY did GZ not identify himself and THEN ask what TM was doing? GZ was the one who was stalking the kid - repeatedly following - GZ was the adult who apparently considered himself 'responsible' for the safety of the neighborhood. Instead GZ acted in a defensive, paranoid way and did nothing to defuse the situation - according to his own narrative as told to Tracy Martin by the lead detective in the case within days of the death.


Other than the facts from the links, this is my opinion.

 

[marlame]

Snipped for length (although an excellent post overall, IMO)

Speaking of GZ's good buddy, Frank Taafe... he was yet again featured on one of the news programs last night. Please don't ask which one. They're all running together.

Paraphrasing here... He was again talking about all the burglaries in his neighborhood committed by young black men. The reporter said, "So he was following TM because he thought he was another black robber?" To which Taafe responded with a smug look, "Well, If you plant corn, you get corn."

You should have seen look on the faces of the other members on the panel. :what: They were incredulous.

Although the quote for Taafe is dead on accurate, since I'm paraphrasing, I'll add JMO, MOO, IMO, etc.

GZ's friends are not helping him...:what:
Zimmerman has the right to remain silent and maybe his friends/family should follow suit?

 

[annalia]

Yes that has been quite evident...no further interviews after his "close" relationship was exposed.

In the last few days the other friend, Taffey??, has admitted that he has neither seen nor spoken with GZ AT ALL since the event nor did he for WEEKS prior to the incident. He admitted that there has only been one voice mail left during that time period and he avoided answering whether HE left the message or GZ left a message for him.

Also, CNN this a.m. put up the REAL information on the 8 burglaries....only FOUR are suspected to have been done by black suspects. The rest have no identified suspects at all.

EDITED TO ADD: The CNN research into the burglaries also discovered that the one that supposedly happened at Taffey's own house NEVER occurred....it was called in by GZ but when LE arrived there was NO ONE at all in the area and no sign of any kind of attempt to break in.

BBM

This is really appalling, but I can't say it's too surprising. From the very first time he opened his mouth he seemed to have a certain agenda. Many of us said at the time that he wasn't helping GZ by what he was saying.

And obviously GZ approves or he wouldn't have left him that thank you message.

If there is a trial I hope Taffe is called.

JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

Not sure if this has been posted. Interesting clip of CNN film tech editor guy enhancing the back of GZ's head.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/03/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-audio-video-tape.cnn

 

[Emeralgem]

It's relevant to me because if there was a struggle...you cannot just look at GZ and dissect his past and attitudes without looking at the OTHER PERSON who was in that struggle. TM had increasingly been getting into trouble. His Twitter account tells us a lot about him IN HIS OWN WORDS. If it is fair to judge GZ every word and action...and not do the same to TM?

Can the person who wrote those tweets, many angry and profane...been upset enough to decide to beat up GZ? It is possible, despite whatever those who would make TM "perfect" choose to ignore. If he is dead because of a fight that HE initiated, then that is a HUGE part of this story.

WE DON"T KNOW YET, do we? So we need as much info on both these people. TM is an excellent source of info on HIMSELF. If there is ANY possibility that TM was the aggressor in the FIGHT..and there is...everything needs to be known.

While you feel a deceased TM is an excellent source of information on himself, What about GZ? As I see it, we have an alive GZ that we are not getting too much information on at all... Personally, I'm wondering WHY.
I'm interested in his daily routine, his interests.. Does he exercise at the gym at home? Does he lift weights? How many times a week? Does he or has he ever taken steroids... Did he ever attend any self defense classes? Any martial arts studying or handbook guides associated with being a bouncer? Did he ever wrestle in high school? His drinking habits? Does he frequent bars, or prefer to drink at home? '
As you can see, I'm interested in knowing about GZ too... Answers to my questions would most definitely help me, as well as others, I suspect, come to know him a little better...JMHO

 

[Adrienne37]

BBM

This is really appalling, but I can't say it's too surprising. From the very first time he opened his mouth he seemed to have a certain agenda. Many of us said at the time that he wasn't helping GZ by what he was saying.

And obviously GZ approves or he wouldn't have left him that thank you message.

If there is a trial I hope Taffe is called.

JMHO

and Joe Oliver as well. Additionally, I hope Zimmerman Jr. is called and specifically questioned about his comments to Piers Morgan on the night of his TV interview and oh, we can't forget Zimmerman Sr. with his interviews.

~jmo~

 

[atthelake]

Happens to me all the time when I'm on vacation...trying to find the villa.

Jeez, I do it often in large mall/shopping center parking lots trying to find my car! :floorlaugh:

Also, I can just imagine if someone was following me in a car, getting out, getting back in and continuing to follow me in a strange place (as he was visiting.)

I too would therefore go between the condos to try to find my father's fiance's back door in an effort to get away from the street... and that *stranger* who was *stalking* me from his car! And if he wasn't familiar with the back entrance at night in the rain, he could he been off the sidewalk looking at the back entrances and into their places closer to try to figure out which was hers. SUCH a travesty. :twocents::twocents:

 

[marlame]

Not sure if this has been posted. Interesting clip of CNN film tech editor guy enhancing the back of GZ's head.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/03/ac-kth-trayvon-martin-audio-video-tape.cnn

Thanks for the link! I really like how they showed us exactly how the enhanced the image. But after looking at it I have to wonder...After shooting Trayvon did GZ wack himself in the head with his gun? Hmmm...:waitasec:

 

[suzihawk]

Weapons training? How does that relate to being told "we don't need you to do that"? Following a person is not escalating a situation, but what TM may have done, attacking him, is. I don't think his actions created a situation that had any forsseable consequences...he got out of his car and was accosted by TM (yes, TM spoke to him first).

According to Zimmerman.

 

[Wise Old Owl]

As I've been saying ad nauseum - it is (was) all about choices. Our lives are just a series of choices - everyday, all day.

I have a DOJJ school about half a block from my house. It is where all juveniles that are progressing through the court system here attend. In the past few years - the number of students has grown expotentially.

Every day - around 3-ish, this school dismisses. While most take busses (I've counted at least 15 a day) which pass in front of my house, there are a number of students that walk my block down to a public bus stop.

These kids walk in groups and some are, IMO very scary looking individuals. However, there have been days when I'm out working in my front yard when school lets out. While they may look "scary" - I've found if I look up and smile and say "how ya doin'?" Very frequently they smile back at me and say "hi". Some even trade "small talk" with me.

It is all in how we perceive people. First impressions. I'm quite sure that if I had scowled at them or whatever that THAT first impression they now have of me - would have resulted in possibly some nasty remarks. But, as it is, I've lived here now for a few years and even recognize some of them and they always nod, or wave or say "hi".

Regardless of how GZ perceived TM - if he would have given just a little more contemplation on what the possible scenerios could have been at why TM was walking in the complex - this horrible crime would have never happened. A simple "Hi, how ya doin'?" or "Is everything ok - why you out walking in the rain?" would have gone a long way in defusing the quickly escalating situation.


JMHO

 

[csziggy]

Now I'm confused, I thought Trayvon was shot in the front???? Why/how could Trayvon be on his stomach if he was shot in the front???

That's one of the big mysteries. But it is right there in the initial police report in the words of Officer Ricardo Ayalla:

I then noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath his body.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[JeannaT]

And instead of George profiling Trayvon as a criminal, he could have rolled down his window and smiled nicely at Trayvon and said "hey young man, my name is George Zimmerman, I am the community neighborhood watch captain, it's raining outside would you like a ride to your door?"

I don't know which of the "players" is in graver risk in a scenario like this - George, who is inviting a young man he thinks is acting suspiciously to get in his car, or Trayvon, who is being invited to get into the car of an adult man he doesn't know.

I would think if Trayvon were approached in this way, it would warrant a call to the police. I find this much more threatening - and dangerous - than an outright "what are you doing here"?

 

[ThoughtFox]

Weapons training? How does that relate to being told "we don't need you to do that"? Following a person is not escalating a situation, but what TM may have done, attacking him, is. I don't think his actions created a situation that had any forsseable consequences...he got out of his car and was accosted by TM (yes, TM spoke to him first).

No matter what TM said, that doesn't justify deadly force.

Please read the link I keep in my signature about what signifies "stand your ground" and "castle doctrine" according to Florida Law. Also Neighborhood Watch has rules which Zimmerman should have known since he was a captain.

Ignorance is no defense under the law.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force.

*snip*

...if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime.

*snip*

A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

 

[JeannaT]

According to Zimmerman.

According to Trayvon's girlfriend, too.

I think it's pretty clear Trayvon was the first to verbally engage.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Right from the start George's dad had a problem with the truth.

"At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon," the letter said, "everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...obert-zimmerman-letter-unarmed-black-teenager

 

[Gin]

GZ did the right thing by calling LE...Yes, but it is what he did following his 911 call that is in question. Being suspicious is reasonable but following Trayvon after being informed not to do that is where this whole situation took a turn for the worst. :tears:

JMHO~

Hmmm..Called LE for what? I see a black kid? Is being black a crime? What was Z doing out and about anyway? Z will not be able to hide behind any defense of "I was the neighborhood watch captain/helper/neighbor". Z (or his attorney) will never find a neighborhood watch organization in the entire nation that will state it is acceptable for volunteers to bring along a weapons (like a loaded 9mm) and follow/engage your "suspects". Z KNEW that behavior isn't sanctioned in any way shape or form. He attended a meeting where that was made abundantly clear to him. And not only did he attend the meeting, he set it up.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1333551713-HfViHartlyDQBcO45BCxmw