17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #16

[Adrienne37]

According to Trayvon's girlfriend, too.

I think it's pretty clear Trayvon was the first to verbally engage.

I beg to differ. Zimmerman was the first to engage by stalking Trayvon. He should have done as we was told. If he would have listened and paid attention to what 911 was telling him, this whole situation would have never happened.



~jmo~

 

[lillygator]

I don't know which of the "players" is in graver risk in a scenario like this - George, who is inviting a young man he thinks is acting suspiciously to get in his car, or Trayvon, who is being invited to get into the car of an adult man he doesn't know.

I would think if Trayvon were approached in this way, it would warrant a call to the police. I find this much more threatening - and dangerous - than an outright "what are you doing here"?

unless I know the person I am not offering anyone a ride. They could have a gun or other weapon, etc.....that is just reckless I think.

 

[atthelake]

I feel like going through all the threads, one by one, and collecting all the links and just post them all at once.

<snipped respectfully>

Thanks.

I agree that IMHO this main thread would benefit with sub-threads as we had with the Caylee case - where only links WITHOUT discussion can be posted for others to go through later. Mods, can you do this? lease: Can we have subthreads set up as this is already to #16 and I can't locate old stuff I want to. TIA for moderator consideration. :seeya:

 

[Angels_Not_Forgotten]

According to this:

Trayvon Refused To Run

http://global.christianpost.com/news/trayvon-martins-last-call-reveals-he-refused-to-run-71757/

I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run," ABC News reported.

Do you honestly think if Trayvon would have ran he would not have looked suspicious then?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[ThoughtFox]

Hmmm..Called LE for what? I see a black kid? Is being black a crime? What was Z doing out and about anyway? Z will not be able to hide behind any defense of "I was the neighborhood watch captain/helper/neighbor". Z (or his attorney) will never find a neighborhood watch organization in the entire nation that will state it is acceptable for volunteers to bring along a weapons (like a loaded 9mm) and follow/engage your "suspects". Z KNEW that behavior isn't sanctioned in any way shape or form. He attended a meeting where that was made abundantly clear to him. And not only did he attend the meeting, he set it up.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/u...l=1&adxnnlx=1333551713-HfViHartlyDQBcO45BCxmw

Thank you - I am so tired of the meme that poor George didn't know the rules, or poor George was forced into doing things by the kid he was stalking.

He had a concealed weapon license and was a Neighborhood Watch captain. He had been given rules for both things, yet he chose to willfully ignore the rules, and went off like a loose cannon.

Trayvon didn't force him to do any of that or to lose his memory of every rule of society that George knew.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

I refer you once again to the information that George Zimmerman had to be aware of and sign when he got his permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.
3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."[/QUOTE]

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html


If Zimmerman thought as his 911 call clearly indicated, that Martin had a gun or a weapon, then he was wrong to get out of the car. He clearly over reacted to the situation by getting out of the car. I still have seen NO credible evidence that would indicate that Travon Martin approached him first, or that Travon Martin punched hit or attacked Zimmerman first. Yet Trayvon Martin is dead, from a bullet fired by George Zimmerman, who was following someone and carrying a loaded weapon somone moreover who was not committing a crime.

I stand by my assessment that the results of George Zimmermans decisions that night were entirely foreseeable and preventable, but only by George Zimmerman IMO JMHO and stuff.

We don't know if he brandished the gun, and if he was attacked first, and feared for his life, he was in compliance with everything you've listed.

 

[csziggy]

You know it's very hard to focus on what actually happened that night, which is why the thread is here, when we keep getting side tracked and derailed with picking sides on racial issues. The FBI is investigating what happened and they will get to the bottom of it. In the meantime, a 17 year old was shot to death because GZ decided to follow him. That is what is important here and we are trying to find out what happened.

TM's parents have a right to be fired up over this. We don't need to add fuel to the fire and it's the main reason we still have issues today in this country. The Martin's are within their rights to seek any political help they need to get help. I have never heard them asking people to be anything more than peaceful. It's their right to ask questions and get answers. Someone in SPD gave them a reason to doubt the SA's decision.

If we are not part of the solution then we are part of the problem. We should all be calling for a complete investigation regarding the events that night and sleuthing what we know not contributing to discussions as to what we preceive as racial issues in this country. This is an individual case and should be treated as such. It's clear some have had issues in the past involving bad encounters and it is obvious by their posts but doesn't it belong on another forum?

You can't ever heal if you keep picking at sore. jmo

I respectfully disagree.

This is a sore that has healed over and become a festering pustule that has broken open again and again. Sanford was a town founded on racism that has maintained that racism for over a hundred years. As much as we all wish racism were not a part of this it is.

IMO, of course.

 

[ThoughtFox]

I agree that IMHO this main thread would benefit with sub-threads as we had with the Caylee case - where only links WITHOUT discussion can be posted for others to go through later. Mods, can you do this? lease: Can we have subthreads set up as this is already to #16 and I can't locate old stuff I want to. TIA for moderator consideration. :seeya:

We have a media links thread at the top of the Hot Cases Forum. All the people helping are doing their best to keep everything together as an archive.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7755279#post7755279"]Trayvon Martin Shooting Media Thread - NO DISCUSSION - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[pkz]

Police tested the gun. There was only one bullet fired. Whatever that witness believed he heard, he had to be mistaken.

This makes me wonder, a very popular gun for concealed carry and can hold a 7 round clip, that would reload after firing...if in fear of your life, wouldn't one fire another shot, out of adrenaline?

 

[imamaze]

I agree that IMHO this main thread would benefit with sub-threads as we had with the Caylee case - where only links WITHOUT discussion can be posted for others to go through later. Mods, can you do this? lease: Can we have subthreads set up as this is already to #16 and I can't locate old stuff I want to. TIA for moderator consideration. :seeya:

We do have a thread where links only are posted and no discussion here...
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166507"]Trayvon Martin Shooting Media Thread - NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[fran]

ATTENTION PLEASE!

If you have pertinent links to media articles for this case, please place a link on the Trayvon Shooting media thread linked below.

tia
fran


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166507"]Trayvon Martin Shooting Media Thread - NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Sensei]

This makes me wonder, a very popular gun for concealed carry and can hold a 7 round clip, that would reload after firing...if in fear of your life, wouldn't one fire another shot, out of adrenaline?

Not only fire another shot possibly, but very likely to continue screaming until they could gather themselves and realize that the attacker was now no longer a threat, when you are in a fight for your life, IMO the fear would not immediatley leave you when the bullet leaves the gun, there would be at least 30seconds, and possibly more time to reassess and confirm that the threat was in fact over. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

No matter what TM said, that doesn't justify deadly force.

Please read the link I keep in my signature about what signifies "stand your ground" and "castle doctrine" according to Florida Law. Also Neighborhood Watch has rules which Zimmerman should have known since he was a captain.

Ignorance is no defense under the law.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force.

*snip*

...if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime.

*snip*

A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

If GZ was attacked (and he was clearly injured) he had every right to defend himself. Bur since there is a trend of discrediting or disbelieving everything and anything favorable to GZ, it is pointless to point out that there was a witness who saw TM pummeling GZ, the police released information consistent with GZ's account, and he was injured. I think SYG clearly applies here. Maybe the Feds will unearth something that has been missing in this case but I just doubt it. Maybe, just maybe GZ told the truth.

 

[Aedrys]

As I've been saying ad nauseum - it is (was) all about choices. Our lives are just a series of choices - everyday, all day.

I have a DOJJ school about half a block from my house. It is where all juveniles that are progressing through the court system here attend. In the past few years - the number of students has grown expotentially.

Every day - around 3-ish, this school dismisses. While most take busses (I've counted at least 15 a day) which pass in front of my house, there are a number of students that walk my block down to a public bus stop.

These kids walk in groups and some are, IMO very scary looking individuals. However, there have been days when I'm out working in my front yard when school lets out. While they may look "scary" - I've found if I look up and smile and say "how ya doin'?" Very frequently they smile back at me and say "hi". Some even trade "small talk" with me.

It is all in how we perceive people. First impressions. I'm quite sure that if I had scowled at them or whatever that THAT first impression they now have of me - would have resulted in possibly some nasty remarks. But, as it is, I've lived here now for a few years and even recognize some of them and they always nod, or wave or say "hi".

Regardless of how GZ perceived TM - if he would have given just a little more contemplation on what the possible scenerios could have been at why TM was walking in the complex - this horrible crime would have never happened. A simple "Hi, how ya doin'?" or "Is everything ok - why you out walking in the rain?" would have gone a long way in defusing the quickly escalating situation.


JMHO

Exactly. I agree with you. The tragedy here is in the choices that were made, unfortunately. How many of us would confront a suspicious looking person? And if we were the suspicious person, how would we react to someone coming after us? It doesn't help that the truth has been twisted or not told here, leaving my head swimming as I try to figure this out. I haven't posted much because of my confusion. But you're right, this was about choice. George chose to go after Trayvon, and he chose to pull the trigger and take his life.

This didn't have to happen, no matter what Trayvon's background or problems may or may not be. Just because he might be troubled doesn't mean in that moment he wasn't trying to protect himself from a madman with a gun. I've seen this too often in other cases - people are judged on the their past actions insted of the situation being talked about. Poor Kronk paid the price for that in Caylee's case. People still think he murdered that poor baby when he had nothing to do with it except finding her body. So Trayvon was troubled - that it makes it okay that he lost his life? He asked to be shot and killed because of his past? He had no right to defend himself? I don't think so. And who knows what other things he might have experienced - maybe he was bullied at school, or maybe someone else thought he was suspicious and came after him before. There could be other explanations for whatever reaction he had to George coming after him with a gun. I'm not just going write Trayvon off as a mindless who beat up George. That is not fair to him.

George also didn't have the right to become a vigilant. He doesn't get to choose who lives and who dies. He chose to pursue, and so he should take repsonsibility for his actions, not hide behind a law. Being on the neighborhood watch does not entitle him to become judge, jury, and executioner. He made a bad choice to pursue. Maybe he'll never do that again, I surely hope so. The fact is, nothing can make him look better or absolve him of what he did, not even a stand your ground law. His reputation will never be the same. I bet he'll never be asked to be on a neighborhood watch anymore. He went way beyond what he was supposed to do that night and took a life. That should weigh heavily on him. Instead, he doesn't want one ounce of responsiblity. That says a lot about him to me. I wouldn't want him free in my community to kill again. The thought that anyone could antagonize someone else, kill them, and then get away with it because of that stand your ground law is the scariest thing I've heard of in a long time.

A young life was lost here. A person chose to pursue this young man with a gun and kill him. I mourn the senseless loss of a life and cringe at the thought that the killer won't have to pay any consequences for it. What happened to truth and justice? It seems everyday both of those become smaller and smaller in this country, and that is the biggest shame of all.

 

[csziggy]

Snipped for length (although an excellent post overall, IMO)

Speaking of GZ's good buddy, Frank Taafe... he was yet again featured on one of the news programs last night. Please don't ask which one. They're all running together.

Paraphrasing here... He was again talking about all the burglaries in his neighborhood committed by young black men. The reporter said, "So he was following TM because he thought he was another black robber?" To which Taafe responded with a smug look, "Well, If you plant corn, you get corn."

You should have seen look on the faces of the other members on the panel. :what: They were incredulous.

Although the quote for Taafe is dead on accurate, since I'm paraphrasing, I'll add JMO, MOO, IMO, etc.

It was CNN’s Soledad O’Brien on their morning show. Video for that here: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...g-black-males-if-you-plant-corn-you-get-corn/

:waitasec:

Taaffe is NOT doing GZ any favors, IMO.

 

[grammieto5]

That's one of the big mysteries. But it is right there in the initial police report in the words of Officer Ricardo Ayalla:

Thank you. There are soooo many unanswered questions, so much confusion on what really happened. The only fact is a 17 year old is dead :-( Hopefully after the GJ these questions will be answered.

 

[Peliman]

What do you think he meant when he said "we don't need you to do that?"

Where do you think GZ's location was when he was told "We don't want you to do that?" At some point GZ he got out of his truck and ran/moved quickly behind TM. He's heard breathing heavy on the dispatch call when the dispatch tells him "we don't need you to do that."

Where was GZ located when he was told that?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9A-gp8mrdw"]George Zimmerman 911 call about Trayvon Martin UnRedacted - YouTube[/ame]

 

[atthelake]

Now I want to know after reading all these posts, what are you supposed to do if your nose is broken?

Well, from experience, you take the bag of peas out of the freezer that you have just for these occasions of needing ice quickly to prevent swelling. (Everyone, you do have a bag of peas in your freezer right now don't you for these unexpected needs of trying to icepack a curved area? :floorlaugh: I did and do!) The ER doctor said go to another doctor in 2-3 days, "nothing we can do for you now" (except give a prescription for pain).

Spend 99 cents, get a bag of peas for your freezer :floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

BTW - The ER doc said that the swelling was the least that he had seen ...as within 30 seconds, that bag of peas was on the face! :twocents::twocents:

 

[Gin]

It was CNN&#8217;s Soledad O&#8217;Brien on their morning show. Video for that here: http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...g-black-males-if-you-plant-corn-you-get-corn/

:waitasec:

Taaffe is NOT doing GZ any favors, IMO.

BBBM. That is somewhat shocking that he'd be so comfortably transparent with his views, but it's good for us to know where he stands.

 

[vlpate]

I'm sure if you would ask Trayvon's parents if they would like their son back or a million dollars... they would pick their son.

ETA: <modsnip> If they just wanted money, they would quietly sue the HOA and Zimmerman. Instead they are reaching out to any and everyone to help them get Justice for their son.

:moo:

They don't have anything to sue for, yet.