17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[CathyinTexas]

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

They say eye witness testimony is not reliable. I think it has been proven. Now if a number of witnesses said the same thing, it would be more reliable, imo. Also, didn't this same witness say he heard arguing? That doesn't support other testimony or what we heard on the 911 call.

 

[csziggy]

Do we even know there were two ambulances called? GZ was treated in the back of the patrol car by SFD. They sometimes arrive in a van. Could there have only been one ambulance called that was cancelled? If there were an ambulance there why wouldn't the EMT have treated GZ in the ambulance??? The only one I heard say they cancelled the second ambulance was Mr. Taaffe. Anyone know for sure???? jmo

Ambulance info from this article:

Ambulance called for George Zimmerman canceled, dispatch recordings say
April 2, 2012 11:14 AM
(CBS/WKMG) SANFORD, Fla. - Newly released fire rescue dispatch recordings from the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed reveal that a second ambulance - presumably to tend to George Zimmerman - was canceled before it arrived at the scene of the shooting.

"Do they have a second patient?" a person says on the recording. "That's affirmative, there's a second patient."

"You can cancel the second rescue" the rescue worker says," adding that the second patient, Zimmerman, didn't have a gunshot wound.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...e-zimmerman-canceled-dispatch-recordings-say/

 

[frenchvixen]

What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

There was an interview on MSNBC with the teenage boy <modsnip> whose dog had ran off the leash just as he was about to see what the screaming was about. His mother said that the cops came to her home and they were pretty much poaching the child on what to say. The mom said that it made her uncomfortable b/c they should have just asked him and waited for him to answer. Instead they would say things like, "was the shirt a red shirt?" and Austin would answer them "yes or no". I believe this is what has happened here. This would explain why the eyewitnesses have a different account than what the 911 tapes suggests. TM was screaming for help not GZ.

 

[CathyinTexas]

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/new...-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

I have another question, it was dark, people couldn't see any detail. How can he know that it was the "guy in the red sweater" yelling help?

 

[LambChop]

The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

But what evidence shows that lead up to the incident can. jmo

 

[HMSHood]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOt1wEDy0SI&feature=plcp&context=C4eaa6fdVDvjVQa1PpcFOvx2h1gAY0dKBy2EcwzxfB6W8-C2p1jWg="]Zimmerman's 911 call: Audio enhanced again - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Elley Mae]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2010/sc09-332.pdf

http://law.justia.com/codes/florida/2005/TitleXLVI/ch0782.html

Looks like this could be a confusing case even for the experts' jmo

 

[CathyinTexas]

BBM.

Has it been stated and/or confirmed that GZ failed any psychological tests? IMO, that's a huge assumption for a writer to make. Is it even true? If not, shame on Dr. Boyce Watkins for making such a slanderous implication.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I wonder if we will ever know if Trayvon's back was wet and grassy? I would assume that when two men wrestle or scuffle they would both be on the ground at some point. I believe that Trayvon saw the gun before they scuffled. I also wonder if GZ will ever be able to live a normal life even if he isn't charge?

That is a great question and I doubt it. Officer Smith knew it was so important in the case to note at the scene that Zimmerman's back was grassy and wet and later write it in a report but he did not think it was important enough to note whether or not Trayvon's back was wet and grassy. The officer who turned Trayvon onto his back did not note in his report if Trayvon's back was grassy or wet either. Once they turned him over to give CPR any evidence was gone.

It was kind of like Officer Smith had selective psychic abilities of what was important. All IMO



Police report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[LambChop]

We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

He wasn't "squeeky clean". jmo

 

[Elley Mae]

For the life of me I do not hear a racial slur.

 

[suspicious1]

So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me either unless..

This witness did see GZ on the bottom calling for help but he also saw that the man on the bottom had a gun drawn. He ordered him to stop and let him know that he was going to call911. Within seconds later Tray was shot dead.

So I'm wondering if this witness saw GZ with the gun in his hand?

 

[Gin]

Right, the SA can use as evidence any statements George's supporters have made on tv where they say " George told me this or George told me that". They can put them on the stand and play the statements.

Do these same rules apply if the statement is made in "secret squirrel" mode..ie..face obscured or hidden? I'm just wondering if this is being used by GZ supporter(s) to avoid any statements coming back for use in court, rather than "privacy" issues.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

The SA met with the investigators and determined there wasn't enough evidence to prove a case in court. As I recall this occurred about 3 a.m.

And Officer Smith filed his report at 3:29.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

 

[mercuriod]

I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo

Just bouncing off this post because it made me think of this. With all the talk (from his dad, brother, etc) of George wanting to be a police officer, does anyone know if he had even gone through the required training or was it just a pipe dream of Georges?

FDLE requirements http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content...7e-d26cb05b2e3d/how-to-become-an-officer.aspx

2. Complete the Required Training pursuant to 11B-35, F.A.C.

If you are a -
New Officer or
Discipline Cross Over You must complete the following -

1. Complete the Basic Abilities Test (BAT) -

An individual must pass a Commission-approved BAT prior to entering a basic recruit training program. The BAT is available at most training schools and results are valid for four years.

2. Complete Basic Recruit or Cross Over Training –

An individual must successfully complete the Florida Basic Recruit Training Program or Cross Over Training Program for the respective discipline. Training must be completed at a Commission-Certified Training School.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Do these same rules apply if the statement is made in "secret squirrel" mode..ie..face obscured or hidden? I'm just wondering if this is being used by GZ supporter(s) to avoid any statements coming back for use in court, rather than "privacy" issues.

Only with a lawyer. Everything else is fair game.

 

[frenchvixen]

We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

He probably knew that he could not pass the necessary tests to be a PO. He has been described as a Jekkyl and Hyde type personality. His past would back to haunt him and he knew it so he decided not to even go there. Instead he lived vicariously as a cop by being the neighborhood watchman... an <modsnip> character.. this is exactly what the police force does not need.

 

[csziggy]

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/201...led-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

That does not match the timing on the police log in the "initial police report" posted on the City of Sanford web site.

The "he's running" comment is roughly two minutes into GZ's call, but the operator at SPD at 19:11:59 entered into the log, "subj now running towards back entrance of complex".

I think some of the confusion may be that all the information the girlfriend is narrating has been attributed to the last call she had with TM. There were two earlier calls shown on the call log from ABC News - at 6:54 and at 7:04.

I think some of the events she has narrated happened during the call that began at 7:04 - TM passed GZ, saw him watching him, ducked under a porch, pulled up his hood, and ran. Maybe the call dropped while he was running, maybe when GZ (at about 7:11) saw TM's hand at his waistband and something in TM's hand, TM was disconnecting the call.

The screen captures I have of the call logs don't show the duration of the two earlier logs. From a CNN story about the girlfriend I have a section of the call log for the call that began at 7:12 that shows it was 4 minutes.

Then when the gf's call at 7:12 connects, TM tells her he ran, but he's not going to run anymore, just walk fast. I think he's talking to her, reassuring her, shooting the breeze for that four minutes until GZ comes on TM somewhere between the buildings and the call ends at 7:16

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - most of the media have been saying that GZ's call began at 7:10 - according to the SPD log of the call it connected at 19:09:34. That could be what is throwing their timeline off.

 

[Elley Mae]

And Officer Smith filed his report at 3:29.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report.pdf

This was before TM was Id'ed?

 

[gator]

But how did they end up wrestling on the ground… was the gun out before or after the struggle on the ground?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Possibly fighting over the gun? I don't think GZ necessarily intended to kill Trayvon at the outset. I think it's likelier that he drew the gun to intimidate/detain him until LE arrived, and Trayvon (understandably) freaked out.

All speculation and JMO, of course.