17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[Adrienne37]

Not by his choice I'm sure.

We have no way of knowing that. Perhaps he was invited there by the Zimmerman's or their attorneys?



~jmo~

 

[LambChop]

BEM: But by the same token, what was Trayvon doing for the three minutes GZ had lost sight of him - stalking George? This is not just one of my sticking points, this is one of the reasons, according to Lee, credibility was lent to GZ's story. If Trayvon was scared, he'd have gone home. Where was he during that time??

eta: looking for a link if anyone is not familiar with Lee's comments.

""If Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesn't Trayvon keep walking?" Lee said. "He's 70 yards from his house. I think based on the timing of the call and Zimmerman losing sight of him that he had made it to that 'T' (at the end of the path) and was starting to walk toward his house.

"My wish is that he would have kept walking."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...appened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083

He was on the phone with his gf that whole time. We will have to wait and see what they were talking about. jmo

Plus now RZ is saying GZ first saw TM cutting between the houses and that could only be in the section where GZ lives down off of Oregon Ave. So GZ would have seen him before he got to the clubhouse if this accounting is true. jmo

 

[ynotdivein]

For the time being, we are not treating The Grio as MSM. We're looking into this and will let you know ASAP if there's a change in this policy.

 

[vlpate]

Those 2 things are not odd IMO.

They back up the story that GZ chased or continued to follow Trayvon. Like you said GZ had no way of knowing when the girlfriend called, so if Trayvon said someone was following him, why wouldn't we believe it? The girlfriend had no clue about timing either.

Secondly, she may have hung up on her own thinking that the line went dead. She could have been saying "helloo, helllooooo, helllooooo" and getting no answer so she hung up and tried to call right back. Getting voicemail...

JMO IMO MOO

The girlfriend was abreast of the timing of this 911 call prior to releasing her statement to the PRESS - her version of the phone call. The 911 calls were released on March 16, her story was aired on ABC as an exclusive on March 20.

If you have your ear buds on and your phone in your pocket, which is where, IIRC, Trayvon's phone was found, and the ear buds come out, the phone does not disconnect -there's now way. The mic to the head phone is on the cord, it's either hanging now and she's hearing the immediate and loud altercation, or the buds have been yanked from the phone - at which point I might believe she stopped hearing them, but if someone can hear the screams from inside their home, and we can hear the screams on the call they make to 911, she can hear on the phone in his pocket. I think that's why she was so traumatized she went into the hospital. She was at his funeral - she saw the family suffering, why not come forward then?

Something, IMO, stinks to high heaven about the g/f's call. The only purpose I see it serving is to make it sound like Trayvon was scared and running for his life from this strange man. What IF, what Trayvon was really saying, being a kid wanting to impress his g/f, "I'm going to pop this guy". That would have sounded so much more brave than acting like a scared kid. He thinks it's just going to be a matter of acting tough, showing off....didn't factor in a gun. JMO

 

[impatientredhead]

If you read the other cases the state has taken to trial that used the SYG defense, the state lost everyone of them because of the wording of the statute. And many of the cases had highly questionable circumstances, questions of who sought who out, etc....

So I can see where the SA was hesitant to file charges. GZ was on his back according to the police. Two independent witnesses place GZ on his back in the tussle. The statute only requires the reasonable belief that you or someone else in jeopardy of serious bodily harm. No requirement to retreat.

The state will get an indictment, the SA can hide a loss of the case behind saying he declined charges and the grand jury said to put him in front of a jury. The case is high profile, highly charged between race and gun rights, which equals big time money defense team.

The state expert says T was screaming, the defense gets one to say the opposite, or that you can't tell or put the whole science in question. And the biggest problem will be the crime scene was handled as a defensive shooting not a homicide scene. That evidence is gone forever and plays totally to GZs defense.

I think the indictment will calm the crowds for awhile and in a highly defendable case you either have an acquittal or a ridiculous plea deal.

With the weight difference and fact that GZ had bouncer and copwannabe syndrome I think he ended up on the bottom of the struggle because he pulled the gun, probably not intending to fire it but intimidate and contain T, and they went down in a struggle for the gun which would throw all of GZs training out the window. Real cops don't pull their weapons if they aren't planning to fire. GZ couldn't mandhandle and use his bouncing skills because he was hanging onto his gun.

But the current statute only has to convince a jury that GZ had the reasonable belief he was in danger of bodily harm. No duty to retreat. If the police and witnesses say GZ was on his back with T on top of him I think you can build a good case to a jury that " believed " was in danger of
anger of bodily harm, even if he put himself in harms way.

Given an aquittal could lead to riots like we have seen in other racially charged cases, I think a plea deal is even more likely.

Read some of the other cases the state has lost in the SYG rule, one of them was a man in a car who ran over the man he believed put him in physical danger. He was in a vehicle and could have easily retreated but instead ran over the man in question. Aquitted. Jury felt it met the standard of belief and absolved him of his duty to retreat.

There have been ten to fifteen similar trials, all losses, expensive and embarrassing losses to the state. So SA not taking this one willingly does not surprise me at all.

Question- 911 operators are not police officers in the state of Florida? Is that correct? I don't believe he had any obligation to obey the operators who actually said we don't need you to do that rather than stop following him, be where I have the officers coming to meet you.

 

[i.b.nora]

I think the alleged letter to the NAACP from the alleged Concerned Zimmerman Family Member as well as the alleged letter sent to the alleged ungrateful woman from the Zimmerman Family, is very peculiar. I hope the Zimmerman Family continues to send out letters, lots of them.

By the way, Robert Zimmerman referred to the alleged letter in an interview with Sean Hannity. Link to which was posted earlier today. If you missed it, here it is: http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity

 

[csziggy]

He was on the phone with his gf that whole time. We will have to wait and see what they were talking about. jmo

Plus now RZ is saying GZ first saw TM cutting between the houses and that could only be in the section where GZ lives down off of Oregon Ave. So GZ would have seen him before he got to the clubhouse if this accounting is true. jmo

Just a note:
From the street number he gave in the call to SPD, GZ lives at nearly the opposite corner of the development from where the death occured. From the Seminole County Property Appraiser web site, FT lives near the corner where Trayvon may have cut through. Both live on the western side of Retreat View Circle, just at opposite ends.

IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[JeannaT]

I read it as though GZ and family feel like the black community owes GZ something, and they do not.


JMO MOO IMO

They owe him not to call him a racist and incite nationwide hate about him, when they don't know what they're talking about.

They owe him not to have a bounty on his head.

 

[tlcya]

If you read the other cases the state has taken to trial that used the SYG defense, the state lost everyone of them because of the wording of the statute. And many of the cases had highly questionable circumstances, questions of who sought who out, etc....

So I can see where the SA was hesitant to file charges. GZ was on his back according to the police. Two independent witnesses place GZ on his back in the tussle. The statute only requires the reasonable belief that you or someone else in jeopardy of serious bodily harm. No requirement to retreat.

The state will get an indictment, the SA can hide a loss of the case behind saying he declined charges and the grand jury said to put him in front of a jury. The case is high profile, highly charged between race and gun rights, which equals big time money defense team.

The state expert says T was screaming, the defense gets one to say the opposite, or that you can't tell or put the whole science in question. And the biggest problem will be the crime scene was handled as a defensive shooting not a homicide scene. That evidence is gone forever and plays totally to GZs defense.

I think the indictment will calm the crowds for awhile and in a highly defendable case you either have an acquittal or a ridiculous plea deal.

With the weight difference and fact that GZ had bouncer and copwannabe syndrome I think he ended up on the bottom of the struggle because he pulled the gun, probably not intending to fire it but intimidate and contain T, and they went down in a struggle for the gun which would throw all of GZs training out the window. Real cops don't pull their weapons if they aren't planning to fire. GZ couldn't mandhandle and use his bouncing skills because he was hanging onto his gun.

But the current statute only has to convince a jury that GZ had the reasonable belief he was in danger of bodily harm. No duty to retreat. If the police and witnesses say GZ was on his back with T on top of him I think you can build a good case to a jury that " believed " was in danger of
anger of bodily harm, even if he put himself in harms way.

Given an aquittal could lead to riots like we have seen in other racially charged cases, I think a plea deal is even more likely.

Read some of the other cases the state has lost in the SYG rule, one of them was a man in a car who ran over the man he believed put him in physical danger. He was in a vehicle and could have easily retreated but instead ran over the man in question. Aquitted. Jury felt it met the standard of belief and absolved him of his duty to retreat.

There have been ten to fifteen similar trials, all losses, expensive and embarrassing losses to the state. So SA not taking this one willingly does not surprise me at all.

Question- 911 operators are not police officers in the state of Florida? Is that correct? I don't believe he had any obligation to obey the operators who actually said we don't need you to do that rather than stop following him, be where I have the officers coming to meet you.

BBM thanks for your well reasoned post on your thoughts regarding this one. The BBMs are why this law, in its current state, scares the carp outta me. If we are going to have SYG laws in this country they better be darned clear and this one, IMO is a mess.

It is my hope that regardless of the outcome of this case, the SYG laws will be looked at very carefully, and rewritten.

 

[rotterdam]

If you read the other cases the state has taken to trial that used the SYG defense, the state lost everyone of them because of the wording of the statute. And many of the cases had highly questionable circumstances, questions of who sought who out, etc....

So I can see where the SA was hesitant to file charges. GZ was on his back according to the police. Two independent witnesses place GZ on his back in the tussle. The statute only requires the reasonable belief that you or someone else in jeopardy of serious bodily harm. No requirement to retreat.

The state will get an indictment, the SA can hide a loss of the case behind saying he declined charges and the grand jury said to put him in front of a jury. The case is high profile, highly charged between race and gun rights, which equals big time money defense team.

The state expert says T was screaming, the defense gets one to say the opposite, or that you can't tell or put the whole science in question. And the biggest problem will be the crime scene was handled as a defensive shooting not a homicide scene. That evidence is gone forever and plays totally to GZs defense.

I think the indictment will calm the crowds for awhile and in a highly defendable case you either have an acquittal or a ridiculous plea deal.

With the weight difference and fact that GZ had bouncer and copwannabe syndrome I think he ended up on the bottom of the struggle because he pulled the gun, probably not intending to fire it but intimidate and contain T, and they went down in a struggle for the gun which would throw all of GZs training out the window. Real cops don't pull their weapons if they aren't planning to fire. GZ couldn't mandhandle and use his bouncing skills because he was hanging onto his gun.

But the current statute only has to convince a jury that GZ had the reasonable belief he was in danger of bodily harm. No duty to retreat. If the police and witnesses say GZ was on his back with T on top of him I think you can build a good case to a jury that " believed " was in danger of
anger of bodily harm, even if he put himself in harms way.

Given an aquittal could lead to riots like we have seen in other racially charged cases, I think a plea deal is even more likely.

Read some of the other cases the state has lost in the SYG rule, one of them was a man in a car who ran over the man he believed put him in physical danger. He was in a vehicle and could have easily retreated but instead ran over the man in question. Aquitted. Jury felt it met the standard of belief and absolved him of his duty to retreat.

There have been ten to fifteen similar trials, all losses, expensive and embarrassing losses to the state. So SA not taking this one willingly does not surprise me at all.

Question- 911 operators are not police officers in the state of Florida? Is that correct? I don't believe he had any obligation to obey the operators who actually said we don't need you to do that rather than stop following him, be where I have the officers coming to meet you.

I read some of the other FL SYG cases too. Pretty mind boggling and IMO justice was not served. And the money part surely must play a role in it by now. One question. Since GZ called the non emergency number, do we know if that number is also answered by the 911 operators?

 

[vlpate]

He was on the phone with his gf that whole time. We will have to wait and see what they were talking about. jmo

Plus now RZ is saying GZ first saw TM cutting between the houses and that could only be in the section where GZ lives down off of Oregon Ave. So GZ would have seen him before he got to the clubhouse if this accounting is true. jmo

Do you have a map that shows where GZ lives by any chance? I've only see maps with BG's home and the club houses. The entrance by the club house comes off Oregon, right?

Does anyone have a full map that shows where GZ lives/lived?

 

[i.b.nora]

One of my favorite little tidbits from the Sean Hannity interview with the father, Robert Zimmerman, Sr., is:

ZIMMERMAN: Well, it's customary on Sunday night for George to go and do grocery shopping. He had been texting his sister and told her that he was going to go and do grocery shopping. He got in his vehicle to leave the community.

 

[Nova]

I have thought it is a person that knows english as a second language.

It's a simple pronoun reference error: using "him" to refer to two different people without specifying which is which. Native speakers make this error all the time.

 

[LambChop]

Just a note:
From the street number he gave in the call to SPD, GZ lives at nearly the opposite corner of the development from where the death occured. From the Seminole County Property Appraiser web site, FT lives near the corner where Trayvon may have cut through. Both live on the western side of Retreat View Circle, just at opposite ends.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Right, but for GZ to drive out the gate IMO he'd head towards the front gate on Retreat View Circle and the cut through between the houses is in the northern corner off of Oregon with the main gate a little further down. It seems strange his father would say that was why he was suspicious when TM did not use the other cut through until GZ was already following him and had already hung up wiith 911.

I also think it is possible GZ got back in his truck and headed around Retreat View and TM could see him through the breaks in the houses as he headed for the back gate. Not finding him GZ could have headed back up Twin Tree and parked at the cut through path. It appears on the crime scene photos that there is an SUV parked but it is facing the sidewalk area. If GZ were following TM from the clubhouse his car more than likely would have been facing the other way on Twin Tree towards the back entrance. So the location of GZ's car might be important, too. I think there is a likelihood that GZ could have very well have used the car to find TM. There appears to be a four minute time period lapse until GZ made contact. Plenty of time to get to the back gate and back up Twin Tree to where he last saw TM. jmo

 

[Nova]

(snipped)
"If something happens to George as a result of the race furor stirred up by this mischaracterization of George there will be blood on your hands as well as the rest of the racist that have rushed to judgement."

"I will not be providing my name because all our family is in hiding and frankly scared by the threats from the black community. If you feel a need to respond I will see this in the media (IF you do the right thing) And I will be happy to provide more details showing how wrong you really are. I will not remain anonymous after the outcome of this case is determined. There are going to be lots of people that need to be held accountable for their rush to judgement."

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2012/04/04/DOC040412.pdf

I'm really not sure what to say a/b this letter, I think Papa summed it up pretty good. But there's something a/b the wording that bothers me, I just can't put it into words. :moo:

I can. His son shot an unarmed minor. OF COURSE, we should all be suspicious of such a killing. And perhaps it will turn out the shooting was justified. But either way, it doesn't mean we are all racists.

 

[rotterdam]

<modsnip>

The FBI could be looking at this case for many reasons. One of them the Sanford PD and the handling of this case.
Including the peculiar FL SYG statute which insulates the person that commits the homicide but gives no rights/due process to the victim.

 

[Elley Mae]

It's a simple pronoun reference error: using "him" to refer to two different people without specifying which is which. Native speakers make this error all the time.

That's not what I was referring to.

 

[rotterdam]

One of my favorite little tidbits from the Sean Hannity interview with the father, Robert Zimmerman, Sr., is:

ZIMMERMAN: Well, it's customary on Sunday night for George to go and do grocery shopping. He had been texting his sister and told her that he was going to go and do grocery shopping. He got in his vehicle to leave the community.

LOL, I thought he left to get milk.

 

[Nova]

BEM: But by the same token, what was Trayvon doing for the three minutes GZ had lost sight of him - stalking George? This is not just one of my sticking points, this is one of the reasons, according to Lee, credibility was lent to GZ's story. If Trayvon was scared, he'd have gone home. Where was he during that time??

eta: looking for a link if anyone is not familiar with Lee's comments.

""If Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesn't Trayvon keep walking?" Lee said. "He's 70 yards from his house. I think based on the timing of the call and Zimmerman losing sight of him that he had made it to that 'T' (at the end of the path) and was starting to walk toward his house.

"My wish is that he would have kept walking."
http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...appened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/1223083

But if we take GZ's story as gospel, we have to believe TM ran away from GZ only to jump GZ from behind moments later. If GZ were telling the truth, TM would have indeed made it home. The problem is that GZ is lying. (ETA imo)

 

[LambChop]

Do you have a map that shows where GZ lives by any chance? I've only see maps with BG's home and the club houses. The entrance by the club house comes off Oregon, right?

Does anyone have a full map that shows where GZ lives/lived?

I have seen one but I do not think we are suppose to post it. I know the exact address was removed and really not fair to post it. I don't think it is fair to his family. But as you are looking at the map, GZ's condo is down on the lower portion on the left hand side of Retreat View Circle he would probably drive up Retreat View Circle to go out the front gate. The cut through is up in the northern left hand corner coming off of Oregon. If you google it and bring the street camera down you can see the cut through between the homes. Main gate is off of Oregon. jmo