17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17

[Concerned Papa]

Here is a map showing where Zimmerman lives.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...eading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

Yep right back there where his old pal and crime statistician extraordinaire, Frank Taaffe, lives also.

 

[csziggy]

Right, but for GZ to drive out the gate IMO he'd head towards the front gate on Retreat View Circle and the cut through between the houses is in the northern corner off of Oregon with the main gate a little further down. It seems strange his father would say that was why he was suspicious when TM did not use the other cut through until GZ was already following him and had already hung up wiith 911.

I also think it is possible GZ got back in his truck and headed around Retreat View and TM could see him through the breaks in the houses as he headed for the back gate. Not finding him GZ could have headed back up Twin Tree and parked at the cut through path. It appears on the crime scene photos that there is an SUV parked but it is facing the sidewalk area. If GZ were following TM from the clubhouse his car more than likely would have been facing the other way on Twin Tree towards the back entrance. So the location of GZ's car might be important, too. I think there is a likelihood that GZ could have very well have used the car to find TM. There appears to be a four minute time period lapse until GZ made contact. Plenty of time to get to the back gate and back up Twin Tree to where he last saw TM. jmo

I agree about the direction GZ was going and where he probably spotted TM. I was just indicating that GZ lived much further around Retreat Circle than close to that corner near Oregon.

Yes, it is VERY important where GZ's car is and which way it was facing. I've seen it placed anywhere from right at the curve of Twin Trees where the sidewalk leaves the road to about where the last townhouse is in the unit on Twin Trees nearest the clubhouse.

GZ got off the phone with SPD a by 7:13:40 when the dispatcher made the last entry - "Compl new req leo 1045 before 1056". That leaves two minutes twenty seconds for GZ to make whatever moves he did.

You know, I kind of like your idea of GZ cruising around that block, trying to spot where TM went! That could explain why TM did not go straight home - he was trying to evade this crazy guy following him. If I thought some weirdo was tracking me, I wouldn't want to lead him home to where my younger step brother was alone.

That block is just a little less than a third of a mile around. Although the speed limit in the subdivision is 15mph (from one of the HOA newletters), I wouldn't expect GZ to stay at the speed limit while he's on the hunt for this punk that got away. So there is no way to estimate how quickly GZ could drive around it especially since we don't know where he parked and left his car. I wonder if GZ had a flashlight to shine in between the units while he was hunting TM?

Early along I floated the idea that GZ cut between the buildings facing Twin Trees and came out in front of TM but I dropped it since there was so much time after TM ran from GZ it didn't make sense. But if GZ was playing cat & mouse, and TM was trying to stay out of sight, that could take up a lot of the slack in the timeline.

That would fit Concerned Papa's timeline - that TM made it almost home but for some reason moved back down between the townhouses. If he'd gotten almost back then saw the crazy guy at the end of the block, TM could have doubled back to lead him away from the younger boy. GZ could have driven further down the block and tried to cut TM off.

But if we're to give any credence to any part of GZ's claims, this doesn't fit. I've been trying to give him some benefit of doubt that GZ didn't start out to kill, but this scenario does make him a somewhat crazed guy hunting down poor Trayvon. That makes me sick.

IMO< JMO< etc.

 

[vlpate]

All that was mentioned were the earbuds. GZ told the dispatcher TM had something in his hand, he did not know what it was so assuming if TM was walking towards him it had to be small enough that GZ could not tell what it was. The ice tea and Skittles were still in TM hood pocket when he was shot. Other than the money TM had nothing else on him. jmo

He could have put the can of Iced tea in his pocket while running - GZ saw something in his hand before Trayvon took off.

Anyway, my point was never all of that - even if he was just holding his phone and the ear buds fell out when he popped GZ, his phone would not disconnect and she would still be able to hear what was going on through the speaker on his phone - that he may or may not have been holding. Somehow it made its way back into his pocket and wasn't dropped when he hit GZ....according to Crump.

She said she called Trayvon right back - that call would have shown up on Trayvon's call logs - no way did he punch GZ, turn his phone off, and continue on with the fight. I strongly feel she heard all of it and she's freaked out - she's trying to help, and I understand that to a certain extent - but she needs to tell the truth about what she heard - all of it. IMO

 

[csziggy]

Was there something released about the phone being in TM's pocket? It could have just as well been in his hand. jmo

I didn't think anyone knows where TM's phone was - that the family didn't have it and LE hasn't said they have it.

IMO, JMO, etc.

 

[vlpate]

Well, um, Hannity's latest interview with Robert, Sr., talks about it a little. Basically it was a letter raging to the NAACP asking them to call off the dogs from his son George. And, it talked about the good that George had done on January 2, of 2011 when he passed out flyers to all the Black church-goers trying to activate the Black church-goers to go to a City Commission meeting and complain about the treatment by the then Police Department of a homeless man named Ware.
The letter to the woman was a copy of that letter, and chastising her for having attended a recent rally in the park which was urging the arrest of George. She was the sister of the man who George supported by going to all the Black churches, and therefore the implication was that she owed something in kind to George. The original letter also included sample flyers that George handed out, however they were not included in the PDF.

HTH.

Ok, I just heard something funny - I hate watching JVM when a case first breaks because I don't think the information is always accurate, but now it's funny to watch everyone stepping back and bringing the race rhetoric down to a very low boil. Jackson, one of the lawyers for TM's family (the one who said GZ fired a warning shot before shooting TM), was rebutting what GZ's attorneys were saying about the racially charged side of this issue and how much harm it's done - and I promise you - if anyone else watched tonight, they know I'm telling the truth - Jackson said the Zimmerman family were the only ones continuing to bring it up all the time.... I swear she said that... all innocent like.

 

[vlpate]

I didn't think anyone knows where TM's phone was - that the family didn't have it and LE hasn't said they have it.

IMO, JMO, etc.

LE has said they have Trayvon's phone - Crump said the phone was in TM's pocket, with the skittles, 22.00 and the can of tea.

 

[LambChop]

He could have put the can of Iced tea in his pocket while running - GZ saw something in his hand before Trayvon took off.

Anyway, my point was never all of that - even if he was just holding his phone and the ear buds fell out when he popped GZ, his phone would not disconnect and she would still be able to hear what was going on through the speaker on his phone - that he may or may not have been holding. Somehow it made its way back into his pocket and wasn't dropped when he hit GZ....according to Crump.

She said she called Trayvon right back - that call would have shown up on Trayvon's call logs - no way did he punch GZ, turn his phone off, and continue on with the fight. I strongly feel she heard all of it and she's freaked out - she's trying to help, and I understand that to a certain extent - but she needs to tell the truth about what she heard - all of it. IMO

Do we know what type of phone he had?? Mine slides so it is easy to disconnect and you can't put it in a pocket unless you had a handsfree. jmo

 

[Adrienne37]

Far reaching impact that Trayvon's case has had.

Coke withdraws from group that backs Stand Your Ground law...

Coca-Cola Co is dropping its membership in a conservative national advocacy group that supports "Stand Your Ground" laws such as the one being used as a defence in the Florida killing of an unarmed black teenager, Trayvon Martin.

The move by Coke follows a similar one by PepsiCo and comes as corporate America faces increased scrutiny from consumers and shareholder activists over lobbying and political spending.

In a statement on Thursday, Coca-Cola made no direct mention of the controversial self-defense law pushed by the American Legislative Exchange Council.

The law provides shooters with wide latitude for claiming self defense when they perceive a threat.

http://www.brecorder.com/business-a-economy/189/1173515/

 

[LambChop]

Ok, I just heard something funny - I hate watching JVM when a case first breaks because I don't think the information is always accurate, but now it's funny to watch everyone stepping back and bringing the race rhetoric down to a very low boil. Jackson, one of the lawyers for TM's family (the one who said GZ fired a warning shot before shooting TM), was rebutting what GZ's attorneys were saying about the racially charged side of this issue and how much harm it's done - and I promise you - if anyone else watched tonight, they know I'm telling the truth - Jackson said the Zimmerman family were the only ones continuing to bring it up all the time.... I swear she said that... all innocent like.

I don't think we have heard from the Martins lately, have we. I know the Z's, FT, JO and Z's attorneys have all been on TV nightly discussing this case. We all agree, I think, that they all need to stop talking on GZ's side because they seem to be doing more harm than good. I can't believe George is agreeing to some of the things his father is saying. jmo

 

[LambChop]

I agree about the direction GZ was going and where he probably spotted TM. I was just indicating that GZ lived much further around Retreat Circle than close to that corner near Oregon.

Yes, it is VERY important where GZ's car is and which way it was facing. I've seen it placed anywhere from right at the curve of Twin Trees where the sidewalk leaves the road to about where the last townhouse is in the unit on Twin Trees nearest the clubhouse.

GZ got off the phone with SPD a by 7:13:40 when the dispatcher made the last entry - "Compl new req leo 1045 before 1056". That leaves two minutes twenty seconds for GZ to make whatever moves he did.

You know, I kind of like your idea of GZ cruising around that block, trying to spot where TM went! That could explain why TM did not go straight home - he was trying to evade this crazy guy following him. If I thought some weirdo was tracking me, I wouldn't want to lead him home to where my younger step brother was alone.

That block is just a little less than a third of a mile around. Although the speed limit in the subdivision is 15mph (from one of the HOA newletters), I wouldn't expect GZ to stay at the speed limit while he's on the hunt for this punk that got away. So there is no way to estimate how quickly GZ could drive around it especially since we don't know where he parked and left his car. I wonder if GZ had a flashlight to shine in between the units while he was hunting TM?

Early along I floated the idea that GZ cut between the buildings facing Twin Trees and came out in front of TM but I dropped it since there was so much time after TM ran from GZ it didn't make sense. But if GZ was playing cat & mouse, and TM was trying to stay out of sight, that could take up a lot of the slack in the timeline.

That would fit Concerned Papa's timeline - that TM made it almost home but for some reason moved back down between the townhouses. If he'd gotten almost back then saw the crazy guy at the end of the block, TM could have doubled back to lead him away from the younger boy. GZ could have driven further down the block and tried to cut TM off.

But if we're to give any credence to any part of GZ's claims, this doesn't fit. I've been trying to give him some benefit of doubt that GZ didn't start out to kill, but this scenario does make him a somewhat crazed guy hunting down poor Trayvon. That makes me sick.

IMO< JMO< etc.

Interesting where FT lives compared to GZ. Do you suppose FT might have seen TM first and called GZ??? That would be on the phone records. Funny, too, how George's father talks about his son was on the phone with the sister right before he left to go to the store and how he always shops on Sunday. Not sure this is a Super-Target but regular Targets just have a few food items but not where you would want to shop for a weeks worth of food. jmo

 

[Boytwnmom]

is a slur and it clearly shows his mindset of categorizing TM as one of those a%$holes, those f'in punks or whatever that always get away.

He had obviously tried and convicted TM, without any objective evidence indicating this kid was doing anything other than walking. It's patently absurd to argue it's not a slur-if someone calls you an "f'in punk" I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say "Thanks for the compliment" and in the context in which it was made it was not an innocent or benign comment. The point is that everything GZ did was based upon his instantaneous conclusion that TM was a criminal.

As far as race I'm fairly convinced he racially profiled him. I know, I know, it's not illegal. As far as animus, I don't know. He could just be a regular idiot whose idea of logic is black guys have committed some crimes here, there's a black guy, better call the police. I would hope we can all agree such a knew jerk reaction is not only without merit but a waste of everyone's time-if he was such a watch expert he should have been savvy enough to know that what matters is behavior and not skin color. If he had just waited for the police he had called, that's all that would have happened here, he would have only been guilty of wasting everyone's time.

I totally disagree. "Punks" is not a race-specific slur. IMO, it's not even a slur. Without the racial slur, it will be very hard to press hate crime charges, much less convict on basically nothing other than TM was an AA teen and the person who shot him is a 20-something Hispanic man.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[gxm]

He called in complaints (pool party for example), but which of the white people were considered suspicious?

By that same token, if he were UNSURE of Trayvon's race, he also could have said so. He said he looks black. How often are white people mistaken for being black? Not often IMO. Especially not a black person a dark as Trayvon. We're not talking about someone who could pass for white or hispanic, we are talking about someone who is clearly dark skinned. IMO MOO JMO

Of the 45 call logs, as best I can tell five complaints were specifically about white or hispanic men and five complaints (including the call about TM) were specifically about black men. Now, that's only 10 complaints out of the 45 that he called in that even specified race (most likely because he was asked to) &#8212; that's 50/50 out of less than 25% of the calls, calls which were made over a seven year period.

My mother and her sister were refused admittance to a "whites only" beach in the 1950s. I know for a fact that white people can be mistaken for AA. It was dark, GZ had not had a good look at TM, and IMO, he was not sure whether he was black or not. He wasn't sure until TM turned to face him and walked closer. It makes perfect sense considering that TM had his hood pulled up to protect himself from the rain.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[suzihawk]

The girlfriend was abreast of the timing of this 911 call prior to releasing her statement to the PRESS - her version of the phone call. The 911 calls were released on March 16, her story was aired on ABC as an exclusive on March 20.

If you have your ear buds on and your phone in your pocket, which is where, IIRC, Trayvon's phone was found, and the ear buds come out, the phone does not disconnect -there's now way. The mic to the head phone is on the cord, it's either hanging now and she's hearing the immediate and loud altercation, or the buds have been yanked from the phone - at which point I might believe she stopped hearing them, but if someone can hear the screams from inside their home, and we can hear the screams on the call they make to 911, she can hear on the phone in his pocket. I think that's why she was so traumatized she went into the hospital. She was at his funeral - she saw the family suffering, why not come forward then?

Something, IMO, stinks to high heaven about the g/f's call. The only purpose I see it serving is to make it sound like Trayvon was scared and running for his life from this strange man. What IF, what Trayvon was really saying, being a kid wanting to impress his g/f, "I'm going to pop this guy". That would have sounded so much more brave than acting like a scared kid. He thinks it's just going to be a matter of acting tough, showing off....didn't factor in a gun. JMO

I may have missed it. Do we know this is where TM's phone was found?


I think the furthest thing in this young girl's mind in her grief and trauma is creating scenarios in an effort to paint anyone in a different light. MOO

 

[Adrienne37]

Interesting where FT lives compared to GZ. Do you suppose FT might have seen TM first and called GZ??? That would be on the phone records. Funny, too, how George's father talks about his son was on the phone with the sister right before he left to go to the store and how he always shops on Sunday. Not sure this is a Super-Target but regular Targets just have a few food items but not where you would want to shop for a weeks worth of food. jmo

Great thought LambChop.

 

[gxm]

is a slur and it clearly shows his mindset of categorizing TM as one of those a%$holes, those f'in punks or whatever that always get away.

He had obviously tried and convicted TM, without any objective evidence indicating this kid was doing anything other than walking. It's patently absurd to argue it's not a slur-if someone calls you an "f'in punk" I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say "Thanks for the compliment" and in the context in which it was made it was not an innocent or benign comment. The point is that everything GZ did was based upon his instantaneous conclusion that TM was a criminal.

As far as race I'm fairly convinced he racially profiled him. I know, I know, it's not illegal. As far as animus, I don't know. He could just be a regular idiot whose idea of logic is black guys have committed some crimes here, there's a black guy, better call the police. I would hope we can all agree such a knew jerk reaction is not only without merit but a waste of everyone's time-if he was such a watch expert he should have been savvy enough to know that what matters is behavior and not skin color. If he had just waited for the police he had called, that's all that would have happened here, he would have only been guilty of wasting everyone's time.

Unless he was saying "f'ing cold" in which case only the weather can take offense. IMO, it's futile to try to pin this case on an inaudible muttering that even the "experts" can't seem to agree on.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[francie]

He called in complaints (pool party for example), but which of the white people were considered suspicious?

By that same token, if he were UNSURE of Trayvon's race, he also could have said so. He said he looks black. How often are white people mistaken for being black? Not often IMO. Especially not a black person a dark as Trayvon. We're not talking about someone who could pass for white or hispanic, we are talking about someone who is clearly dark skinned. IMO MOO JMO

And didn't Trayvon have his hood down when he first noticed George following him (according to gf) so it would've been easier for George to see if TM was black, white or whatever? And wouldn't the hood being down & not over his head seem less suspicious? jmo

 

[Adrienne37]

From Google.
The definition of punk - A worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).


From M-W.com - archaic : prostitute
2
[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
3
a : a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a young man
b : a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian
c slang : a young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison

From dictionary.com punk2 &#8194; &#8194;[puhngk] Show IPA
noun
1.
Slang .
a.
something or someone worthless or unimportant.
b.
a young ruffian; hoodlum.
c.
an inexperienced youth.
d.
a young male partner of a homosexual.
e.
an apprentice, especially in the building trades.
f.
Prison Slang . a boy.

 

[katydid23]

Surprising article found on Huffington Post.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wyatt-troia/justice-for-george-zimmerman_b_1406278.html

 

[vlpate]

He called in complaints (pool party for example), but which of the white people were considered suspicious?

By that same token, if he were UNSURE of Trayvon's race, he also could have said so. He said he looks black. How often are white people mistaken for being black? Not often IMO. Especially not a black person a dark as Trayvon. We're not talking about someone who could pass for white or hispanic, we are talking about someone who is clearly dark skinned. IMO MOO JMO

I have a feeling Zimmerman may have been receiving free or reduced rent in exchange for being the neighborhood "captain". I supervised a property once that formed their own HOA - it was a deal much like this one - sounded good on paper but never really worked out. They sold about 1/3 of the condos and ended up having to hire a management company to lease out the rest. The HOA has to be formed for the owners- the homeowners pay dues for the amenities on the property and upkeep - the management company actually takes care of the amenities, but the HOA has to justify collecting dues, so they have to provide viable proof of where their dues are being spent - enter, security.

They hire courtesy patrol or form a neighborhood watch. This is why a newsletter told residents to call GZ. One of his duties is to keep an eye on the pool and the clubhouse. Non-residents and drunk visitors without a vested interest in the amenities could care less if they destroy them. One broken beer bottle in a pool could cost thousands in repairs and much more if someone is hurt by the broken glass. We used to replace a pool light every other week on one of my properties because the residents from the apartments next door liked to make whoopi at night in the dark - pool gets shut down, wires repaired, inspection, pool light is put back in by an electrician, and we would do it all over again in two weeks. My point is, seeing people who don't belong in a pool area might sound silly, but it's not - not if you're paying for damages. Every time it happened I would be livid with the courtesy officer because he never caught the culprits.

Side note - we fixed the pool light problem with a bungee cord rigged inside the mechanism to keep it from being pulled off - $1.29.

 

[katydid23]

From Google.
The definition of punk - A worthless person (often used as a general term of abuse).


From M-W.com - archaic : prostitute
2
[probably partly from 3punk] : nonsense, foolishness
3
a : a young inexperienced person : beginner, novice; especially : a young man
b : a usually petty gangster, hoodlum, or ruffian
c slang : a young man used as a homosexual partner especially in a prison

From dictionary.com punk2 &#8194; &#8194;[puhngk] Show IPA
noun
1.
Slang .
a.
something or someone worthless or unimportant.
b.
a young ruffian; hoodlum.
c.
an inexperienced youth.
d.
a young male partner of a homosexual.
e.
an apprentice, especially in the building trades.
f.
Prison Slang . a boy.

Or you could have BOLDED the ones I highlighted.