17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19

[Emeralgem]

That, in and of itself, is totally remarkable, IMO

IMHO.. Totally scary...JMHO

 

[ThoughtFox]

Sorry but many people have discrimination about how some people look especially how some teens want to look these days. It never made anyone into a killer.
I have escorted them out of the office when they walk in with their pants to the knees and their underpants showing. I have also cut interviews to 10 minutes when they come in inked all over.
Yes I have a right to create a proper image for a firm. So we do judge, we will judge, and we should judge. This does not make killers.

I also pray that there will be justice.... lease:

No matter what happens one side will not be happy.

Point being we all judge and it is not the makings of a killer.
Sadly Trayvon is dead not because GZ judged his cloths or color.
Sadly Trayvon is dead and there are still pieces of the puzzle missing.
LIKE - what happened during those 2 minutes? Who challenged whom and how?
Nobody has that information. How can they make any decisions on what happened???
:moo:

It's just this: in a job interview you talk to someone in a rational manner and have time to judge them based not only on clothing (I would hope) but also on the answers they give. Or not ~ whatever. But usually the job applicant has an appointment so it's all civilized and agreed upon by both parties, correct? A boss doesn't stand outside his place of business accosting people on the street about whether they are suitable for a job they aren't looking for and probably don't want.

With George and Trayvon, the kid was seen from a distance and it was dark or nearly so, he wasn't dressing to impress George or anyone else nor does the law require that from someone taking a walk. The "interview" was either mumbled or hollered while George was on 911 and Trayvon was trying to talk to his girlfriend on the phone. Whatever face time they had was not civilized and ended in some type of brawl and ended with Trayvon dead on the ground.

I don't believe anyone has to get a makeover just to please their neighbors or even their family or really anyone in the world. Trayvon wasn't breaking any laws and there's no evidence his pants were down or that he had tattoos any of the things I've seen mentioned, and even if he did, good luck seeing tattoos in the dark from across the street anyway. Did I mention tattoos are not illegal, nor are they reason enough to accost someone.

I've never dressed to please anyone but myself and no one has ever shot me for it, which actually surprises me now, come to think of it. Freedom to walk around dressed casually in a way that pleases only myself is something I won't take for granted ever again.

 

[ThoughtFox]

BUT THE ANOLOGY IS
what we do not see we cannot say we have a conclusion about it.

Exactly. Think of all the things that George couldn't see about Trayvon. Nearly every one of his basic perceptions was completely wrong.

 

[LolaMoon08]

This prank call still has me confused? What in the world kind of call would bring out 7-8 police cruisers and a helicopter? Surely it was not --

1) A Bomb threat. The neighbors would have been evacuated. The SWAT team would have been brought in?

2) A Hostage Situation. Again, the neighbors would be evacuated. FT would not have been able to run down the street before being stopped by LE. There would be crime scene tape up, etc...

I thought that it might have been someone calling in and pretending to be GZ and he was threatening suicide. That would not bring out a helicopter though? That only happens when someone is threatening to jump off a skyscraper -- and I've only ever seen that in the movies?

Would a helicopter and all those cops show up if someone called in a burglary? Someone breaking into GZ's home?

I know he seems to get along with SPD real well, but would they really deploy that much man power? This is the type of man power that shows up when, unfortunately, one of their own has been injured?

I'm thinking about what in the world could have been said in this call to get this kind of reaction? It doesn't make sense? They knew GZ wasn't living there? They've even said that they know where he is at and they've been keeping in contact with him?

I really hope they catch whoever did this and I want to know what was actually said. It just doesn't sit right with me?

MOO

 

[Emeralgem]

2 different topics:
A- I do not know why there was not a fair and balanced investigation, there i lies my anger too, there should have been.
B- Now there is an investigation in the works, And the information should be held close to the vest till the right time is to announce what they have found.
The Media has already created a money machine, tilted a lot by creating false impressions.

IMHO.. It is NOT two different topics.. I was referring to the investigation by SPD not being properly handled that night when the incident first occurred... I was referring to SPD sweeping the case under the rug.JMHO

 

[songline]

But, again, look at GZ at SPD. His upper body shows signs of him being very phyically fit. TM appear to be very slim in his picture with gf and just average and certainly never had training as a bouncer. I see GZ training and getting himself fit for any position that would involve security. And he certainly seems very fit at the police station.

If GZ were on the bottom as witnesses claim, and I believe he was, I think it would be entirely possible that he was holding onto TM so he could not get away until LE arrived. I think somehow the gun came into play and that is why we hear those painful wails. If TM were as strong and powerful as some believe to take GZ down it would have been just as easy for GZ to have lost control of the gun and he never did. If TM jumped GZ and knocked him down, banged his head numerous times on the cement TM would have had the gun. TM had to have been lying right on top of it making it clearly known that GZ had a gun on him. Myself, I believe GZ had his hand on that gun the whole time. There is no way GZ would have let TM get that gun. jmo

BBM: WHAT IF?
I can see BBM that point clearly...But I think if GZ was holding on to TM while GZ was on the bottom, TM could feel the gun and realized WOW this is a gun, Then struggled to either get lose or get hold of the gun...
HERE IN LIES a scenario that we cannot hear in the 911 call that we do not know from any witness how that brawl had BEGUN. We just do not know.
IMHO those 2 minutes change everything from just watching to something very different that again WE DO NOT KNOW.
:moo:

 

[songline]

IMHO.. It is NOT two different topics.. I was referring to the investigation by SPD not being properly handled that night when the incident first occurred... I was referring to SPD sweeping the case under the rug.JMHO

YES you asked why they need to hold things close to the vest. that is separate from why didn't they do a good investigation.

They should have done a good investigation
they should hold the findings close to the vest till the proper time
It is never proper to trial any case in public opinion, the media does not help they just don’t.
They create a money machine for tabloid.

 

[songline]

Exactly. Think of all the things that George couldn't see about Trayvon. Nearly every one of his basic perceptions was completely wrong.

As are many of our perceptions due to media outrage, and misinformation.

I find it ironic that some of the same people say that by looking at GZ history the know this or that.
But that looking at Trayvon history has nothing to do with this case.
SORRY
Can’t have it both ways.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

This prank call still has me confused? What in the world kind of call would bring out 7-8 police cruisers and a helicopter? Surely it was not --

1) A Bomb threat. The neighbors would have been evacuated. The SWAT team would have been brought in?

2) A Hostage Situation. Again, the neighbors would be evacuated. FT would not have been able to run down the street before being stopped by LE. There would be crime scene tape up, etc...

I thought that it might have been someone calling in and pretending to be GZ and he was threatening suicide. That would not bring out a helicopter though? That only happens when someone is threatening to jump off a skyscraper -- and I've only ever seen that in the movies?

Would a helicopter and all those cops show up if someone called in a burglary? Someone breaking into GZ's home?

I know he seems to get along with SPD real well, but would they really deploy that much man power? This is the type of man power that shows up when, unfortunately, one of their own has been injured?

I'm thinking about what in the world could have been said in this call to get this kind of reaction? It doesn't make sense? They knew GZ wasn't living there? They've even said that they know where he is at and they've been keeping in contact with him?

I really hope they catch whoever did this and I want to know what was actually said. It just doesn't sit right with me?

MOO

I think fox held off running the story trying to get the 911 tape. LE does not want to release it I assume.

I think it probably makes LE look bad concerning it and the Martin response so I would almost bet it had something to do with race and shooting. ALL IMO

 

[LambChop]

BUT THE ANOLOGY IS
what we do not see we cannot say we have a conclusion about it.

Apparently GZ seemed to have no problem coming to a conclusion without any facts. Most investigations have to use the logic that Chris presented because in many cases there are no "eyewitness" to prove or disprove who started an incident.

TM's history shows no potential for violence. GZ does. Interviews with TM's brother show a man who is well spoken, mild in manner and who also claimed his brother was very much the same as he is. TM's parents are remarkable in their ability to handle what has happened asking people to view it as not a black and white issue but a right and wrong issue. There is no proof TM would have reacted in a negative way other than to try and get away from GZ. GZ proved he was actively pursuing TM. That proof is the minute he stepped from his car and started to follow TM when LE told him he did not have to do so.

We have the right to be suspicious of people. We have the right to call LE regarding those suspicions. We have the obligation to let LE do their job. That should be were it ends, not to go off following someone like some super sleuther.

If a MOD (here) told me I did not need to be posting information as fact when it was not I would respect that and not do it again because I respect their authority. GZ did not respect LE's authority when they instructed him to wait with the car. He had the right to verbally challenge that request but did not do so. That instruction to GZ from LE was for his own protection as well as it was for everyone else. He disregarded it and took the law into his own hands without considering the safety of others. It's that simple. jmo

 

[LambChop]

As are many of our perceptions due to media outrage, and misinformation.

I find it ironic that some of the same people say that by looking at GZ history the know this or that.
But that looking at Trayvon history has nothing to do with this case.
SORRY
Can’t have it both ways.

Nothing wrong with looking at both histories. What is wrong is comparing GZ's record of violence to TM's having an empty bag of weed in his backpack. It's a violent crime so the comparison would be a recorded documentation of violence in their background. TM has none. GZ has plenty. jmo

 

[songline]

It's just this: in a job interview you talk to someone in a rational manner and have time to judge them based not only on clothing (I would hope) but also on the answers they give. Or not ~ whatever. But usually the job applicant has an appointment so it's all civilized and agreed upon by both parties, correct? A boss doesn't stand outside his place of business accosting people on the street about whether they are suitable for a job they aren't looking for and probably don't want.

With George and Trayvon, the kid was seen from a distance and it was dark or nearly so, he wasn't dressing to impress George or anyone else nor does the law require that from someone taking a walk. The "interview" was either mumbled or hollered while George was on 911 and Trayvon was trying to talk to his girlfriend on the phone. Whatever face time they had was not civilized and ended in some type of brawl and ended with Trayvon dead on the ground.

I don't believe anyone has to get a makeover just to please their neighbors or even their family or really anyone in the world. Trayvon wasn't breaking any laws and there's no evidence his pants were down or that he had tattoos any of the things I've seen mentioned, and even if he did, good luck seeing tattoos in the dark from across the street anyway. Did I mention tattoos are not illegal, nor are they reason enough to accost someone.

I've never dressed to please anyone but myself and no one has ever shot me for it, which actually surprises me now, come to think of it. Freedom to walk around dressed casually in a way that pleases only myself is something I won't take for granted ever again.

LMAO you are funny, I enjoy reading you.
I myself dress just as Trayvon did that day when I go out for a run.
BUT People here are saying that George judged Trayvon... I say we all do that at different times, in different ways. NON of us are free of judgments none of us. We even select our friends based on a judgment.
If you give me an impression that makes me want you as a friend it is also a judgment of mine.

IF Gorge sized up Trayvon based on whatever, could be body language... he had a right to size him up. Just as I may size people up at an interview...A watchman sizes people up based on whatever he has learned on his job.

I am no youngster; I can draw on many life experiences.
I was in a produce market one day. I noticed a guy looking funny... I can’t explain it but I zipped my bag, watched my wallet, and him.
Sure enough 5 minutes later I saw him try to pick a women’s bag. I grabbed his hand and yelled police. YES he was apprehended. The girl got on the line behind me she bought me flowers her way to say Thanks.
BUT HOW IS IT I SIZED THE GUY UP??? I am sure that George has a far more keen eye for such things then I do...

 

[vlpate]

I am not happy about the gun, but I do not like guns at all.
but in Florida it is legal.
I am not happy with the police either, they have been known to do shoty work.
But I do not know all the details until a thorough investigation is done.
I would not let GA watch anything he is a bit too eager to be a cop.
But he will not be safe being visible anywhere anyway.
His was disarmed, and an investigation is NOW on going, but should have been from the start.
You cannot do an investigation in one hour as they had done early on

I don't remember reading anywhere that the investigation was done in one hour. There was no probable cause to arrest him that night - and they have to have probable cause when the SYG defense is invoked. The investigation went on until around March 8. They could have arrested GZ at any time during the investigation.

I am not saying the investigation was good or bad - I don't know how anyone can say that with certainty since we don't have the information LE has. The SA is investigating the SPD's decision not to arrest under public pressure to do so.

Everyone seems to think the "aggressor" makes all the difference in this case, but it does not. Under Florida law an aggressor can use lethal force when he or she indicates they want to end the confrontation, but the victim continues to fight. Florida law requires that the aggressor "withdraw" from physical conduct and indicate to the victim a desire to retreat. In other words, the aggressor can use deadly force to defend himself or herself if, after indicating a desire to retreat, the victim will not permit the defendant to do so.

Eyewitnesses stated they saw TM on top of GZ and GZ was asking for help. LE did not have the girlfriend's statements at the time of the initial investigation - so, what they had to go on were eyewitness statements and the fact that TM was not shot in the back, that he did not allow GZ to stand up and retreat, this, IMO, is why Zimmerman was not arrested.

Even if the girlfriend's version of the phone call is accurate, I'm not sure it will make a difference.

JMO

 

[Emeralgem]

BBM: WHAT IF?
I can see BBM that point clearly...But I think if GZ was holding on to TM while GZ was on the bottom, TM could feel the gun and realized WOW this is a gun, Then struggled to either get lose or get hold of the gun...
HERE IN LIES a scenario that we cannot hear in the 911 call that we do not know from any witness how that brawl had BEGUN. We just do not know.
IMHO those 2 minutes change everything from just watching to something very different that again WE DO NOT KNOW.
:moo:

BBM...I fully realize I was not present and on the scene to determine what exactly happened and will also admit I have ( to the best of my ability) avoided listening to those horrific wails but taking into consideration those horrific moans did occur, to me that is an indication something horrific happened..
Since the moans and the wails came to an abrupt halt when a gunshot was heard I suspect GZ was the one responsible for all the hurt being perpetrated...So IMHO.. I can't say..WE DO NOT KNOW...JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

BBM

Even though some of the media have played fast and loose with the facts in this case, I strongly feel there would have never been further investigation without the pressure the media brings. Most of us would be completely unaware of this case without Trayvons family pushing at the media to get the story out there.

I agree, without the pressure put on LE by the public and media, there wouldn't have been further investigation.

But I don't think the conclusion will change - after ALL the investigation, I believe they will come to the conclusion that they were right to begin with, and there is no reason to believe this was anything but justified self-defense.

 

[Isabelle]

As are many of our perceptions due to media outrage, and misinformation.

I find it ironic that some of the same people say that by looking at GZ history the know this or that.
But that looking at Trayvon history has nothing to do with this case.
SORRY
Can’t have it both ways.

But Trayvon never had a gun and he never killed anyone. At the moment the gun fired, that event became part of GZ's history.

 

[Isabelle]

I don't remember reading anywhere that the investigation was done in one hour. There was no probable cause to arrest him that night - and they have to have probable cause when the SYG defense is invoked. The investigation went on until around March 8. They could have arrested GZ at any time during the investigation.

I am not saying the investigation was good or bad - I don't know how anyone can say that with certainty since we don't have the information LE has. The SA is investigating the SPD's decision not to arrest under public pressure to do so.

Everyone seems to think the "aggressor" makes all the difference in this case, but it does not. Under Florida law an aggressor can use lethal force when he or she indicates they want to end the confrontation, but the victim continues to fight. Florida law requires that the aggressor "withdraw" from physical conduct and indicate to the victim a desire to retreat. In other words, the aggressor can use deadly force to defend himself or herself if, after indicating a desire to retreat, the victim will not permit the defendant to do so.

Eyewitnesses stated they saw TM on top of GZ and GZ was asking for help. LE did not have the girlfriend's statements at the time of the initial investigation - so, what they had to go on were eyewitness statements and the fact that TM was not shot in the back, that he did not allow GZ to stand up and retreat, this, IMO, is why Zimmerman was not arrested.

Even if the girlfriend's version of the phone call is accurate, I'm not sure it will make a difference.

JMO

Witnesses also complained that LE either didn't want to be bothered with their statements or their statements were changed or they were coerced to change their statements. This is a major problem. If your loved one was the decedent, I am sure you would have a different perspective on the situation.

 

[songline]

Nothing wrong with looking at both histories. What is wrong is comparing GZ's record of violence to TM's having an empty bag of weed in his backpack. It's a violent crime so the comparison would be a recorded documentation of violence in their background. TM has none. GZ has plenty. jmo

OK now you can compare GZ.
FIRST Let’s look at both accurately, not selectively.
I see TM a bit differently, then your description:
TM's pot bag was not always empty. LOL
TM's locker was found with a screw driver and Ladies Jewelry, hmmm.
TM has gold teeth... allows for judgment here too.
Was sent home from school for the 3rd time, 10 days is never a first timer.

 

[LambChop]

BBM: WHAT IF?
I can see BBM that point clearly...But I think if GZ was holding on to TM while GZ was on the bottom, TM could feel the gun and realized WOW this is a gun, Then struggled to either get lose or get hold of the gun...
HERE IN LIES a scenario that we cannot hear in the 911 call that we do not know from any witness how that brawl had BEGUN. We just do not know.
IMHO those 2 minutes change everything from just watching to something very different that again WE DO NOT KNOW.
:moo:

We don't know is correct and that is why investigators have to look at everything. And "Mr. Squeeky Clean" should have been right up there with his past record. LE has to consider when doing their investigation who has the more aggressive past, who had a right to be where they were at the time of the fight and who had the most to gain. GZ past, TM right to be where he was at the time and GZ's motation to follow (they always get away) will lead investigators to believe that the possibility is greater that GZ was the aggressor than TM.

The report from TM's gf will be very important because she just does not have the worldly experience to figure out how to line up evidence to discredit GZ. Much of the evidence we don't even know, but LE does. When kids tell the truth they are consistent and this young lady appears to have had many authorities talking to her. I don't see her going before the Grand Jury unless she has been consistent. jmo

 

[songline]

I don't remember reading anywhere that the investigation was done in one hour. There was no probable cause to arrest him that night - and they have to have probable cause when the SYG defense is invoked. The investigation went on until around March 8. They could have arrested GZ at any time during the investigation.

I am not saying the investigation was good or bad - I don't know how anyone can say that with certainty since we don't have the information LE has. The SA is investigating the SPD's decision not to arrest under public pressure to do so.

Everyone seems to think the "aggressor" makes all the difference in this case, but it does not. Under Florida law an aggressor can use lethal force when he or she indicates they want to end the confrontation, but the victim continues to fight. Florida law requires that the aggressor "withdraw" from physical conduct and indicate to the victim a desire to retreat. In other words, the aggressor can use deadly force to defend himself or herself if, after indicating a desire to retreat, the victim will not permit the defendant to do so.

Eyewitnesses stated they saw TM on top of GZ and GZ was asking for help. LE did not have the girlfriend's statements at the time of the initial investigation - so, what they had to go on were eyewitness statements and the fact that TM was not shot in the back, that he did not allow GZ to stand up and retreat, this, IMO, is why Zimmerman was not arrested.

Even if the girlfriend's version of the phone call is accurate, I'm not sure it will make a difference.

JMO

We differ on this point:
That same night they released him because they said GZ was defending himself.
IMHO The police blew it big time.
That Stupid Law - is a haven for mad men.

As long as one was standing and can talk.
One was dead and can’t talk. The investigation should have been thorough.