17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

[JeannaT]

If this goes to trial and it comes out that Trayvon instigated the fight, so be it. But for now, we just do not know what went down, yet it is stated over and over that Trayvon punched and/or jumped GZ. That may or may not be true but until we know for sure it is irritating to see statements to that affect that are not followed by IMO, JMO, MOO, or what-have-you.

That's all JMO.

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. There aren't any impartial witnesses to the beginning of the physical fight that I'm aware of.

What we do know, is that GZ was carrying a gun and it seems highly unlikely that he would begin a physical fight with his fists if he had a gun in his waistband.

I'm left with the only other conclusion - Trayvon started it.

 

[2goldfish]

I think she actually said he said "Man what is your problem?" and then GZ said I don't have a problem, and then wham the dogfight began.

When I picture this, if Trayvon were afraid of GZ - that is, believed GZ intended to knife him, kidnap him, rob him, etc., and knowing that Trayvon wasn't armed, I don't think he would have verbally engaged GZ, and asked him what his problem was. If he truly feared for his safety from GZ, I think he would have broken into a run and gotten away and not forced an encounter.

I think he knew what GZ was doing, and it pissed him off so he took the first swing. i believe Trayvon knew GZ suspected him, and was following him to watch him, and so Trayvon attacked him first verbally and then physically.

That's my humble opinion only. I can't see verbally engaging someone who you are truly afraid of, if you are unarmed, if you have the chance to get away which Trayvon certainly did.

bbm not saying trayvon would have known this but this is exactly what gavin de becker recommends in his amazing and wonderful book the gift of fear.

people like that are looking for victims, and if you make eye contact and SPEAK UP then your chances of surviving an encounter are quite high cause clearly you're not the scared little mouse that is typically being looked for.

clearly this did NOT WORK OUT in trayvon's case, but he absolutely did NOTHING wrong in confronting his stalker. he did it all right....it was zimmerman who profiled him, it is zimmerman who knew LE was on the way and continued after him anyway, it was zimmerman who had no business doing what he did and it was zimmerman who shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old.


this blaming the victim thing...I dont get it, I really dont.

 

[2goldfish]

Apparently, Trayvon erred that night by not curtsying, addressing GZ as "sir", and failing to offer him some of his Arizona Iced Tea. It's a shame the way kids today have no manners.

I....think you are the first person to even make me burst into laughter and tears at the same time, congrats. here is your thwartcake :cupcake:

 

[flourish]

Would you turn around and challenge them verbally if it's highly reasonable you could outrun them and safety was 70 yards away?

I personally don't know what I would do, (and hope to never find out) but I would hope I wouldn't get criticized for not taking the time to sort through all of the possible options and weigh the pros and cons before acting...because doing so might just make it too late to act at all! But I do know, I would see no reason to "humble" myself to a person I felt threatened by. To me, "humbling" in that situation implies kowtowing and IMO would likely be perceived as fear, which, if the person wants to do me harm, them knowing they were succeeding in scaring me wouldn't help the situation, either. Also, one could argue that since GZ was the older person with the semi-official station of NW captain, he should have been the one to make more effort to be polite to TM.

Perhaps TM thought if he said something, the guy behind him would recognize he was making TM feel uncomfortable and say something like, "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to frighten you, I was walking in the same direction as you is all." I don't have a problem WHATSOEVER with TM allegedly asking GZ why he was following him.

 

[JeannaT]

bbm not saying trayvon would have known this but this is exactly what gavin de becker recommends in his amazing and wonderful book the gift of fear.

people like that are looking for victims, and if you make eye contact and SPEAK UP then your chances of surviving an encounter are quite high cause clearly you're not the scared little mouse that is typically being looked for.

clearly this did NOT WORK OUT in trayvon's case, but he absolutely did NOTHING wrong in confronting his stalker. he did it all right....it was zimmerman who profiled him, it is zimmerman who knew LE was on the way and continued after him anyway, it was zimmerman who had no business doing what he did and it was zimmerman who shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old.


this blaming the victim thing...I dont get it, I really dont.

I do see what you're saying, and I also know that when a perp is looking to choose a victim, they look for meek people who are unaware of their surroundings and don't carry themselves with purpose, and scurry about in fear. Fear of violent crime REALLY does seem to attract violent crime. The women I know who are scared little rabbits tend to be victimized at an extremely high rate, considering all the strategies they put in place not to be attacked.

Having said that, once you realize you've been chosen as the victim, if you have no weapon and you have a good chance to escape, that's the best idea. And Trayvon had no weapon and certainly the opportunity to escape.

I don't think he feared he was going to be the victim of a crime. I think (maybe I said this already) he knew he was being followed and watched by someone suspicious of him, and that set him off.

 

[MaryAnn]

well I just asked over on the thread for lawyers about no arrest and evidence. I'm looking forward to learning what the answer is I just can't imagine having someone shot and killed, and having the shooter making claims of abuse and no pictures, no xrays, no blood samples taken. I sure hope I'm missing something about the SYG law.

I truly think that if GZ really did have his head slammed to the concrete like he is saying, LE would have taken pics when they showed up. Those pics would have already been leaked all over the internet. Since there aren't any pics how can he prove that he really did have a broken nose that miraculously healed within minutes along with the gashes on the back of his head that also healed immediately. His mug shot does not show a broken nose to me! I could be wrong. Plus if his head was slammed to the concrete he would at the least have a concussion and would have been taken to the hospital. Why would LE take a chance of him dieing from a head wound? They even took Melissa Gilbert to the hospital for her little head bump on DWTS. Isn't it normal protocal to go to the hospital for a head injury like that? Just sayin.... I don't think he had any injuries besides his wet jacket!!

 

[AngelWings444]

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. There aren't any impartial witnesses to the beginning of the physical fight that I'm aware of.

What we do know, is that GZ was carrying a gun and it seems highly unlikely that he would begin a physical fight with his fists if he had a gun in his waistband.

I'm left with the only other conclusion - Trayvon started it.

You have a kid walking home from 7-11 with skittles and an Arizona Ice Tea. Someone is following him, he is doing nothing wrong, and has the right to be there. Travyon tries to get HOME. GZ stalks this kid, thinking he is on drugs or doing something illegal, which he was not! And that leads you to believe Trayvon "started it"? I don't get the logic. There is absolutely no evidence Trayvon started anything. Everything released so far, and I mean so far, leads to GZ following this kid and killed him in cold blood. He may regret it now, he may realize now that Trayvon was not a criminal, was only walking home, but now is too late. Trayvon is dead.

I'll go with the charging document and LE for now..

JMO

 

[momshrink]

I just visited that thread, and it's not THAT scary at all. :seeya: Just beware of anything green with a gun.

Wait! I thought she was in Chile! How much did K cost the Chilien government?

 

[AngelWings444]

Yes, let's blame the dead victim. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

 

[nursebeeme]

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. There aren't any impartial witnesses to the beginning of the physical fight that I'm aware of.

What we do know, is that GZ was carrying a gun and it seems highly unlikely that he would begin a physical fight with his fists if he had a gun in his waistband.

I'm left with the only other conclusion - Trayvon started it.

bbm: a man who is violent enough to fire a gun at a kid after following him is also violent enough to start a fight with his fists imhoo

 

[flourish]

Also, we've discussed NUMEROUS times that people may fear being attacked or shot from behind if they ran. I personally am not in the right shape to assume that I could outrun pretty much anyone, either. So, no, running probably would not be the choice I would make.

And in this case, as has also been stated NUMEROUS times, TM had every right to be where he was, he had the right to be safe, and he had the right to stand his ground!

 

[Isabelle]

Ever since I was robbed at gunpoint, I have been on guard when walking in public. If I know or sense someone is behind me, I will suddenly turn around and look straight at them. I have heard that this will lessen you chances of being a target for attack.

 

[MaryAnn]

I do see what you're saying, and I also know that when a perp is looking to choose a victim, they look for meek people who are unaware of their surroundings and don't carry themselves with purpose, and scurry about in fear. Fear of violent crime REALLY does seem to attract violent crime. The women I know who are scared little rabbits tend to be victimized at an extremely high rate, considering all the strategies they put in place not to be attacked.

Having said that, once you realize you've been chosen as the victim, if you have no weapon and you have a good chance to escape, that's the best idea. And Trayvon had no weapon and certainly the opportunity to escape.

I don't think he feared he was going to be the victim of a crime. I think (maybe I said this already) he knew he was being followed and watched by someone suspicious of him, and that set him off.

This is not consistant with TM's girlfriends statement. She said he was scared!

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I truly think that if GZ really did have his head slammed to the concrete like he is saying, LE would have taken pics when they showed up. Those pics would have already been leaked all over the internet. Since there aren't any pics how can he prove that he really did have a broken nose that miraculously healed within minutes along with the gashes on the back of his head that also healed immediately. His mug shot does not show a broken nose to me! I could be wrong. Plus if his head was slammed to the concrete he would at the least have a concussion and would have been taken to the hospital. Why would LE take a chance of him dieing from a head wound? They even took Melissa Gilbert to the hospital for her little head bump on DWTS. Isn't it normal protocal to go to the hospital for a head injury like that? Just sayin.... I don't think he had any injuries besides his wet jacket!!

BBM. So if evidence hasn't been leaked at this point it means it doesn't exist?

 

[ThoughtFox]

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. There aren't any impartial witnesses to the beginning of the physical fight that I'm aware of.

What we do know, is that GZ was carrying a gun and it seems highly unlikely that he would begin a physical fight with his fists if he had a gun in his waistband.

I'm left with the only other conclusion - Trayvon started it.

I think it all started when George called 911. :coffeews:

 

[JeannaT]

bbm: a man who is violent enough to fire a gun at a kid after following him is also violent enough to start a fight with his fists imhoo

Nurse, have you ever encountered that happening, or heard of it? I just can't even picture it, a man with a concealed weapon getting into a physical altercation with a man who is clearly his equal in a fist fight. Trayvon is much taller, looks stronger to me, and would not be an easy win in a fight.

In my experience, men who carry are fearful men who don't engage in fistfights. That's why they carry. They're afraid of the world in general, and they don't want to be in a situation where they might be slugged.

All we can do here is look at these two young men, the minimal evidence that we've seen, and try to reconstruct what is most likely.

In my world, it's terribly unlikely that a man with a gun would engaged in hand to hand combat.

 

[krkrjx]

IMO, this altercation did not start with the "physical fight." It started when GZ deliberately followed Trayvon after he knew LE was on the way. If he got close enough in his following for Trayvon to ask why he was following him, GZ escalated the situation to what it eventually became--a fight that ended in tragedy.

 

[Gin]

I don't know that we'll ever know for sure. There aren't any impartial witnesses to the beginning of the physical fight that I'm aware of.

What we do know, is that GZ was carrying a gun and it seems highly unlikely that he would begin a physical fight with his fists if he had a gun in his waistband.

I'm left with the only other conclusion - Trayvon started it.

JMO/IMO etc

Well, actually, you have several options.
1. George started it.
2. Trayvon started it.
3. George told a big lie about the terrible fight that threatened his life.
(Didn't his brother say George's head was repeatedly bashed against concrete, he was losing consciousness, afraid he'd wear diapers and be spoon fed??)

I watched the video of George easily walking very normally through the police department just 40 minutes after the killing. I didn't see that he was sporting so much as a bandaid. His clothes looked just fine.

My conclusion, I will vote for option 3, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Adrienne37]

Can you please provide a link where it states that it is illegal for him to have his gun if he is acting as a watchman?

It may be a recommendation by the police neighborhood watch coordinator, but that does not make it illegal.

<modsnip>

First and foremost, he wasn't a "watchman." A watchman is:

watch·man/&#712;wäCHm&#601;n/
Noun:
A man employed to look after an empty building, esp. at night.
A member of a body of people employed to keep watch in a town at night.

Secondly, he wasn't supposed to be making "rounds."

Lastly, he was not supposed to carry his gun.

All of these issues are addressed within the article at the link. Zimmerman was nothing but a bully who thought he was a man by carrying his gun strapped on his waistband.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46830953/#.T4i1m6s1_TC


~jmo~

 

[Isabelle]

Nurse, have you ever encountered that happening, or heard of it? I just can't even picture it, a man with a concealed weapon getting into a physical altercation with a man who is clearly his equal in a fist fight. Trayvon is much taller, looks stronger to me, and would not be an easy win in a fight.

In my experience, men who carry are fearful men who don't engage in fistfights. That's why they carry. They're afraid of the world in general, and they don't want to be in a situation where they might be slugged.

All we can do here is look at these two young men, the minimal evidence that we've seen, and try to reconstruct what is most likely.

In my world, it's terribly unlikely that a man with a gun would engaged in hand to hand combat.

You are probably right, but there is also the possibility that GZ wanted to hold Trayvon until police arrived and this is when Trayvon would have had the right to defend himself against the person he didn't know? We only have one side of the story, unfortunately.