17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #25

[Deleted member 39678]

Zimmerman will get his chance to prove his claim of self-defense. That is all that alot of have been asking for. Trayvon's parents and supporters have simply wanted Zimmerman to go to court and prove his claim and for a judge and/or jury to decide. That will happen now and IMO should have happened at the beginnning. If Zimmerman can prove his claim, great. If he can not then that needs to come out as well.

MOO

BBM
Tracey Martin has said that he wants GZ to be convicted so he can get some rest.

"When George Zimmerman is arrested, tried and convicted I will get a little rest," Tracey Martin said.

http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

 

[jjenny]

However, as was discussed and shown earlier, a defense of self defense is called an affirmative defense. The defination of such a defense is:

A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).

This is from Cornell University of Law

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/affirmative_defense

So.....for the SYG immunity hearing, it is on the defense to prove SYG. In an actual trial, while the burden of proof is with the prosecutor, to put on an affirmative defense such as self defense, evidence will have to be presented by the defense to support it.

Many use the word proof, or prove it to indicate evidence presented.

Yes, Zimmerman will have to present his self-defense claims. But the burden of proof will be on the prosecution to prove these claims false beyond a reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman got at least one witness who says that it was Zimmerman on the ground screaming for help.
So how is prosecution going to prove Zimmerman's claims false beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[JeannaT]

BBM
Tracey Martin has said that he wants GZ to be convicted so he can get some rest.


http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

The saddest part of that is, no he won't. Families often feel like they'll feel a great sense of relief, and that doesn't seem to happen, even with a completed execution.

Stands to reason that it would be a great comfort, but sadly, it doesn't seem to be. At the end of the day, their loved one is still gone.

 

[Isabelle]

Yes, Zimmerman will have to present his self-defense claims. But the burden of proof will be on the prosecution to prove these claims false beyond a reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman got at least one witness who says that it was Zimmerman on the ground screaming for help.
So how is prosecution going to prove Zimmerman's claims false beyond a reasonable doubt?

If Zimmerman goes before a judge for SYG, will witness be present to support his claim? What about the witnesses that don't support his claim?

 

[Isabelle]

The saddest part of that is, no he won't. Families often feel like they'll feel a great sense of relief, and that doesn't seem to happen, even with a completed execution.

Stands to reason that it would be a great comfort, but sadly, it doesn't seem to be. At the end of the day, their loved one is still gone.

You are right. But, it will be good for the parents to know that if GZ is guilty of a crime, he will be locked up and unable to enjoy all the rights and privileges that their son will never enjoy. Nothing will bring back their son and $$ won't make it better either.

ETA: JeannaT have you lost a child?

 

[wishuwerehere]

Yy

But it is illegal to attempt to detain someone which is, given GZ's frame of mind as seen in his own words to 911, what I think happened between those two buildings that night.

You nailed it!!!

Jmo

 

[belle3]

Yes, Zimmerman will have to present his self-defense claims. But the burden of proof will be on the prosecution to prove these claims false beyond a reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman got at least one witness who says that it was Zimmerman on the ground screaming for help.
So how is prosecution going to prove Zimmerman's claims false beyond a reasonable doubt?

Im gonna assume that the sa has some pretty damning evidence. In all honesty i truly believed this was a manslaughter case at best. The only thing i can think of is something in the autopsy gave them reason to believe that gz version of events werent true. All we have is speculation as to what it could be that the sa has that makes this 2nd degree murder. I have my own thoughts as to why,but they are theories. Just like everyone else here.

 

[jjenny]

Im gonna assume that the sa has some pretty damning evidence. In all honesty i truly believed this was a manslaughter case at best. The only thing i can think of is something in the autopsy gave them reason to believe that gz version of events werent true. All we have is speculation as to what it could be that the sa has that makes this 2nd degree murder. I have my own thoughts as to why,but they are theories. Just like everyone else here.

Well I think plenty of people pointed out that the arrest affidavit itself is very thin and doesn't explain why she thinks it's a second degree murder. So I am not assuming she has any damning evidence. If she had, why isn't it in the affidavit?

 

[Steft50]

Yes, Zimmerman will have to present his self-defense claims. But the burden of proof will be on the prosecution to prove these claims false beyond a reasonable doubt.
Zimmerman got at least one witness who says that it was Zimmerman on the ground screaming for help.
So how is prosecution going to prove Zimmerman's claims false beyond a reasonable doubt?

I would start with this witness in the same way I would like to see all the witnesses handled. First find out how far away he was from the altercation. Remember, this was in an area that is not well lit, it was also raining and he's identified by what he is wearing....he said a red sweater I believe. Well, it was a red and black jacket not a red sweater. I would also ask how he saw what the color was if there was another person on top of him, in the almost dark or dark, in the rain......see where this is going? Discrediting what he thought he saw due to distance, darkness, rain......

Eye witnesses are not reliable witnesses at all to be honest, and yeah, that goes for both sides. There have been multiple studies done on that IIRC

 

[octobermoon]

BBM
Tracey Martin has said that he wants GZ to be convicted so he can get some rest.


http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin...-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html

I bet he does want GZ convicted. The restraint these parents have shown is amazing. If GZ had shot and killed my child... Well lets just say I would be sitting in a cell next to him. GZ took the life of their child. He admits to doing so. The jury/judge will decide his fate. Tracy Martin is father who lost a son.

Please leave the victim parents out of this. Please?

 

[belle3]

Well I think plenty of people pointed out that the arrest affidavit itself is very thin and doesn't explain why she thinks it's a second degree murder. So I am not assuming she has any damning evidence. If she had, why isn't it in the affidavit?

to try and save the integrity of the ongoing investigation??? she had those reports pulled for a reason. It did give gz time to craft a scenario that matched what was in those reports. So who knows. Maybe she is holding something close to the vest.

 

[Steft50]

Well I think plenty of people pointed out that the arrest affidavit itself is very thin and doesn't explain why she thinks it's a second degree murder. So I am not assuming she has any damning evidence. If she had, why isn't it in the affidavit?

Why put any more in the affidavit than is needed to get it affirmed? Why give away, make public anything that she doesn't have to yet. Seems to be pretty normal anywhere to only put in whats needed and no more.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

Well I think plenty of people pointed out that the arrest affidavit itself is very thin and doesn't explain why she thinks it's a second degree murder. So I am not assuming she has any damning evidence. If she had, why isn't it in the affidavit?

It lays out enough points of the law to make it second degree or it would not have been allowed. IMO

 

[fran]

FWIW, here are two current cases presently working through the legal system, where SYG law is being claimed. One is in Florida and one in Arizona.

JMHO
fran


http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/27/2717572/miami-dade-issues-ruling-in-stand.html

Bag of car radios ruled a deadly threat in Stand Your Ground decision




http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/new...an-shot-at-taco-bell-talks-to-fox-10-04142012

Family of Man Shot at Taco Bell Talks to Fox 10

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I bet he does want GZ convicted. The restraint these parents have shown is amazing. If GZ had shot and killed my child... Well lets just say I would be sitting in a cell next to him. GZ took the life of their child. He admits to doing so. The jury/judge will decide his fate. Tracy Martin is father who lost a son.

< mod snip >

I was just trying to clarify what Trayvon's father's stance is. I apologize if I offended you.

 

[elementary]

You and I view this stream of events differently.

Would you say that a child running into the street caused their death, or would you say being hit by a car caused their death.

That's the analogy here.

I'd say the child running into the street didn't cause the death. It was being run over by the car that caused it.

Similarly, GZ believing Trayvon was acting suspiciously didn't cause Trayvon's death. GZ following Trayvon didn't cause his death.

The physical altercation (that no one impartial knows who started) caused the death. IMHO as always.

Context matters. Your argument is also logically <mod snip>, IMO, and beside the point.:waitasec: Without an actor a gun cannot pull its own trigger. There has to be a first cause. GZ caused Trayvon's death, it's that simple. Any other argument, especially a <mod snip> one, IMO, does a disservice to a murdered innocent.

 

[octobermoon]

I was just trying to clarify what Trayvon's father's stance is. I apologize if I offended you.

You didn't offend me

 

[grammieto5]

From the last thread Jeanna T

As I recall, Trayvon's phone was locked. I don't know how it became locked, that'a bit of a mystery.

I don't see how they could have possibly known his identity if he wasn't carrying any ID - and his phone was locked.

I do still wonder about why the girl had no way to reach anyone who should be notified. I would think that would be absolutely terrifying to hear that call, and I can't believe she doesn't have SOME way to know who this young man's family was.

edited to add: I am really curious now about how his phone would have gotten locked.

SPD, a professional LE agency, couldn't even be bothered to put two and two together that Trayvon lived where he died. It was beyond them to canvas the condos and knock on doors, which is standard operating procedure in a homicide. In fact LE not only did not knock on any doors they were out of there so quick Trayvon's parents never saw any evidence of a crime by the time they got home from dinner.

And yet, we want people a couple of hundreds of miles away to be able to do a job that LE couldn't do?

This my question...I now know there will be evidence from Trayvon's autopsy. But what of all the other evidence, is no other evidence apart from Trayvon's autopsy because there was no arrest. When there is no arrest does that mean LE does not have to preserve the crime scence because as far as they were concered there was no crime because GZ told them this???? is that all it takes for a crime to be committed.....the SYG law?

 

[mikeysmommom]

This my question...I now know there will be evidence from Trayvon's autopsy. But what of all the other evidence, is no other evidence apart from Trayvon's autopsy because there was no arrest. When there is no arrest does that mean LE does not have to preserve the crime scence because as far as they were concered there was no crime because GZ told them this???? is that all it takes for a crime to be committed.....the SYG law?

I sure hope they preserved evidence since GZ has been charged he does have the right to have all evidence collected that night.How can he possibly have a fair trial if evidence not collected might show he acted within the law.

 

[belle3]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/interacti...vs-george-zimmerman-affidavit-probable-cause/
(snipped from above link)
The facts mentioned in this Affidavit are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but only are presented for a determination of Probable cause for Second Degree Murder.