17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #26

[LolaMoon08]

What portion of his story does it not "jibe" with? Their accounts as far as screaming and noises heard are different from everyone else involved, and they've interchanged details in the stories they've given to the press. They didn't see the altercation, and never claimed to. They saw the aftermath, and even then... they apparently don't even know if Zimmerman was standing or kneeling. They've said both.

I don't even know what George's story is? All I've heard is what has come out of the mouths of Former Police Chief Bill Lee, Daddy Zimmerman, Brother Zimmerman, Frank and Joe and I find nothing credible about any of these men.

MOO

 

[LolaMoon08]

Sure. And that hypothetical situation somewhat poorly explaining the potential gravity of head trauma has been twisted into "Zimmerman only being moments away from being in diapers". I think there's a clear meaning behind what the brother said, and others have turned that into Zimmerman was literally a blow away from being in diapers.

That's usually what happens when you have someone, who was not even there, completely over-exaggerating the situation. Brother Zimmerman has no one to blame but himself for his words being taken literally. He said them.

MOO

 

[highflyer]

Sure. And that hypothetical situation somewhat poorly explaining the potential gravity of head trauma has been twisted into "Zimmerman only being moments away from being in diapers". I think there's a clear meaning behind what the brother said, and others have turned that into Zimmerman was literally a blow away from being in diapers.

It was clear to me.

 

[m00c0w]

I don't even know what George's story is? All I've heard is what has come out of the mouths of Former Police Chief Bill Lee, Daddy Zimmerman, Brother Zimmerman, Frank and Joe and I find nothing credible about any of these men.

MOO

The point is, they couldn't contest his story even if he said he was abducted by aliens and Martians killed Martin. They didn't see the shooting. They didn't see the altercation. They saw Zimmerman doing something after they went outside after the shooting. They can't even agree with themselves on what exactly he was doing.

 

[m00c0w]

That's usually what happens when you have someone, who was not even there, completely over-exaggerating the situation. Brother Zimmerman has no one to blame but himself for his words being taken literally. He said them.

MOO

How do you know he was over-exaggerating the situation? Explaining what was going through someone's mind is not the same as saying the physical condition they were in at the time, which is how it's being characterized.

 

[gxm]

I don't see why not. Trayvon's actions are as much as being mischaracterized, theorized, whatever. Better to do that to a living beings who can speak for themselves than a dead person.

But I think that's why there is so much speculation about TM's frame of mind. We don't know it. We don't have his story. We have nothing except for the GF's recollection of their conversation and IMO that isn't much. I'm not disputing her account, I am saying I don't think it fills in all the blanks. And in trying to fill in the blanks, people are coming up with some very broad speculation.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

 

[momshrink]

Do we know if he took any justice classes? Perhaps if he had taken some justice classes, and spoke about the classes (or his intention to take such classes) to his family and friends they would have gotten that impression. There are many explanations for miscommunication. Lying isn't the only one.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

As I stated in my post his lying is my opinion. Cindy Anthony would say he misspoke. LOL.
He would need to be accepted into the criminal justice program to take any classes in that program and he was not.
I do have a personal connection with this case, so am limited in what I post.
JMO

 

[Velouria]

Are we still mischaracterizing his statements? :waitasec:

I don't know, are you? You did say we, after all.

 

[suzihawk]

Robert zimmerman Jr:

"George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be -- you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother, and there would have been George dead had he not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed by --"

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/29/pmt.01.html

ETA: HH beat me to it.

Sure. And that hypothetical situation somewhat poorly explaining the potential gravity of head trauma has been twisted into "Zimmerman only being moments away from being in diapers". I think there's a clear meaning behind what the brother said, and others have turned that into Zimmerman was literally a blow away from being in diapers.

I'm pretty that saying that "if his head was banged ONE MORE TIME" and "a blow away from being in diapers" is the same thing. But go ahead and try to spin it any way you like. The words speak for themself.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

What portion of his story does it not "jibe" with? Their accounts as far as screaming and noises heard are different from everyone else involved, and they've interchanged details in the stories they've given to the press. They didn't see the altercation, and never claimed to. They saw the aftermath, and even then... they apparently don't even know if Zimmerman was standing or kneeling. They've said both.

As far as I am aware, the only account their story differs from is Zimmerman's. But considering the police appear to have taken some liberties with the accounts of various witnesses (some asserted that police gave leading questions and tried to correct their accounts while taking statements), and there were also complaints of police outright ignoring some witnesses (including Martin's girlfriend), the stories aren't all that clear at the moment.

I would also not bet the farm on the anonymous "John" person who says he saw Zimmerman on the bottom at some point. Remember, this person does not claim to have even seen the actual shooting, only some part of the struggle. So we don't know how the two parties were positioned when the gun was discharged.

Many of the witnesses (including "John") have expressed some confusion about one detail or another. That is common with witnesses, and it doesn't automatically discount their testimony.

 

[grammieto5]

What law are you talking about that prevents anyone from approaching and speaking to anyone else in a public space?

Don't get me wrong: I wish GZ hadn't done so. But I don't see how it was against the law (at that point), not even if we don't like what GZ was thinking at the time.

I'm talking about the SYG law. I'm saying the scary part about this law is GZ did not need a reason to approach Trayvon in any manner he chose. I'm saying I think GZ had to have a reason to approach Trayvon in an aggressive manner. I'm saying I sure hope he needed more then just thinking in his mind Trayvon looked suspicious, therefore he had every right to approach Trayvon, and say and do what ever he wanted to, under the law. Oh I know it's not against the law to approach someone, I'm saying maybe it's not so much about GZ approaching Trayvon as it is about how GZ approached Trayvon.

 

[LolaMoon08]

One of my favorite quotes comes from the book "The Art of Worldly Wisdom" and it is the main reason that I do not trust people who over exaggerate:

Never exaggerate. It is a matter of great importance to forego superlatitives, in part to avoid offending the truth, in part to avoid the cheapening of your judgment. Exaggeration wastes distinction and testifies to the paucity of your understanding and your taste. Praise excites anticipation and stimulates desire. Afterwards when value does not measure up to price, disappointment turns against the fraud and takes revenge by cheapening both the appraised and the appraiser. For this reason let the prudent go slowly, and err in understatement rather than overstatement. The extraordinary of every kind is always rare, wherefore temper your estimate. Exaggeration is akin to lying. Through it you jeopardize your reputation for good taste, which is much, and for good judgment, which is more.

- The Art of Worldly Wisdom - Baltasar Gracian.

 

[gxm]

As I stated in my post his lying is my opinion. Cindy Anthony would say he misspoke. LOL.
He would need to be accepted into the criminal justice program to take any classes in that program and he was not.
I do have a personal connection with this case, so am limited in what I post.
JMO

That's odd. My husband went to BU to study music. He wasn't accepted into their music program but he did take music classes there. Are there no "general" classes open to people who are interested in criminal justice and want to learn something about it, or take the courses in hopes that by successfully completing them they'll be accepted into the program. Have colleges really changed that much since I went (many many years ago)?

ETA. Apparently colleges haven't changed much:

On the Seminole State College website it states that the A.A. General degree is a prerequisite for the Criminal Justice major.

BBM:

"Prerequisite Courses for the Major, Criminal Justice

Prerequisite Courses for the Major, Criminal Justice
Subplan Code: SOC-CJ
CIP: 1192401010

The Associate in Arts (A.A.) degree is designed for transfer to an upper-division public college or university in the state of Florida. Students will complete the A.A. General degree, including common program prerequisites for their program of choice."


Here is a link to their website.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

What portion of his story does it not "jibe" with? Their accounts as far as screaming and noises heard are different from everyone else involved, and they've interchanged details in the stories they've given to the press. They didn't see the altercation, and never claimed to. They saw the aftermath, and even then... they apparently don't even know if Zimmerman was standing or kneeling. They've said both.

Point being, you assert their version doesn't agree with everyone else, when EVERYONE ELSE can't even agree on what their version is. Just saying.

 

[LambChop]

The point is, they couldn't contest his story even if he said he was abducted by aliens and Martians killed Martin. They didn't see the shooting. They didn't see the altercation. They saw Zimmerman doing something after they went outside after the shooting. They can't even agree with themselves on what exactly he was doing.

One thing GZ did not do immediately after shooting TM was call 911.....that we do all know for sure. jmo

 

[m00c0w]

As far as I am aware, the only account their story differs from is Zimmerman's. But considering the police appear to have taken some liberties with the accounts of various witnesses (some asserted that police gave leading questions and tried to correct their accounts while taking statements), and there were also complaints of police outright ignoring some witnesses (including Martin's girlfriend), the stories aren't all that clear at the moment.

I would also not bet the farm on the anonymous "John" person who says he saw Zimmerman on the bottom at some point. Remember, this person does not claim to have even seen the actual shooting, only some part of the struggle. So we don't know how the two parties were positioned when the gun was discharged.

Many of the witnesses (including "John") have expressed some confusion about one detail or another. That is common with witnesses, and it doesn't automatically discount their testimony.

lol, you're dodging the main point.

They didn't see the altercation or the shooting. They've never claimed to.

I'm not sure how you're saying their story is different from Zimmerman's when 1) we don't even know what Zimmerman's account really is, and 2) they didn't see anything until after the shooting.

 

[songline]

I do not know how to bring a post from the last thread.
Originally Posted by songline I think that Oliver is a good friend who spoke to the point and was interviewed by a bear...
Lawrence O’Donnell GILLED Oliver and then spun too.

OLIVER held his own. Yes he is a good friend, and is interfamily related too...


ORIGINAL MsCharlieChanYes it's nice of Joe Oliver to speak up on GZ's behalf. A show of loyalty would be important to a man in GZ's position. I can see considering him a good friend for sticking his neck out.

But he isn't "close" enough to GZ to be a "credible" friend. Joe Oliver didn't even know GZ's been doing Neighborhood Watch for the last couple of years. Didn't know he'd had violence charges with his previous girlfriend, etc.

Seeing someone maybe five times a year and talking about how good the turkey tastes does not a "close" friend make. Oliver telling America "no way" would GZ act depraved doesn't count for much.

The people using this site possibly know more key stuff about GZ than Oliver does.

Other than that, I think the compliments paid to Oliver are due to his ability to remain calm and not flee the studio. He looks good on camera, he's articulate, he's not easily flustered, he pushes through and comes up with some kind of response. Yes, that's commendable. Not everyone can hang under pressure, and Oliver deserves credit for that.

O'Donnell seems to be going for the Mike Wallace-style "ambush interview." 99% of people can't hang with this kind of hostile interview. But Oliver sure tried!!

He deserves credit for remaining composed throughout and not running off in tears. But I doubt that he succeeded in persuading any viewers that GZ the mild-mannered guy he "knows."

O'Donnell & Company tore this man to shreds, like a pack of hungry wolves.

SORNGLINE REPLY
I would never watch this O'Donnell again he is a pack of wolves all by himself and I have no use for the likes of him.
IMO he needs civility lessons.

There are people in business that I consider I know them really well. But if you ask me what is their favorite food,
or color is, I have no clue. There are many people we vouch for regularly as being good people whether in business,
or in the area. How many reference letters have I written for people for jobs? MANY!
Same with some of my neighbors whom I know for 30-40 years --- but if you ask me have they ever been outside of NYS
I would not know.
So what if Oliver does not know him as well as you and some others say.
He knows him enough to know what he thinks of him, or if he trusts him, Does he have to know his intimate personal business???
I don’t tell anyone in my work, or neighborhood my personal business.
not even of my friend know my personal business, maybe one/two know more than the rest of them.

I think this case is bringing out the worst in people. I am astonished how this Man Oliver stands up to it all.
I would probaly tell them all to Go F off.

 

[rossva]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7722333#post7722333"]FL 17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #6 - Page 6 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

From above post:

"Again, many of you are just saying things to try and support your conclusions about GZ's guilt. The fact is that no school has any class or curriculum on Florida's Stand Your Ground law; much less Seminole State Community College."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/
showthread.php?p=7722230#post7722230

From above post:

"That's not true. I am a dual board certified criminal defense attorney, and until I wrote my blog the other night, I was unsure of the in and outs of the Stand Your Ground law."

Wouldn't you think SYG was covered in classes he took in Criminal Justice?

 

[Velouria]

Robert zimmerman Jr:

"George was out of breath, he was barely conscious, his last thing he remembers doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass, so that if he was banged one more time he wouldn't be -- you know, wearing diapers for the rest of his life and being spoon fed by his brother, and there would have been George dead had he not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed by --"

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/29/pmt.01.html

ETA: HH beat me to it.

BBM

Now I ask you, don't most people "act decisively and instantaneously" when they're out of breath and barely conscious?

 

[m00c0w]

One thing GZ did not do immediately after shooting TM was call 911.....that we do all know for sure. jmo

He asked others to. We don't even know what happened to his phone. It's also generally advised that you not call the police yourself after such an incident and get someone else to (unless you're the only one present, of course).