17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #29

[Nova]

I don't get the big deal about age. There are 13 year olds that could take me down and 50 year olds that can't...and I'm sure the opposite. Teenagers do horrible things...I don't feel worse for TM because of age. JMO

I do. The younger the victim, the less life experience he has to draw on in trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

But I agree that TM's age has nothing to do with GZ's legal guilt. Either he feared for his life or he didn't. If TM were 7 or 87, it might make a difference, but 17, 27 or 47 would not.

 

[badme102]

not all! I'm very fond of mark nejame, mr hornsby, and a fella in the metro detroit area whose name I cant recall (I'm getting old, guys!)

Geoffrey Fieger?

 

[Nova]

bbm~

ITA. Grieving parents are not known for their rationality -- as is completely understandable. I know if something terrible happened to my child I would have to be medicated for a very long time and would be inconsolable and, probably, completely irrational. That's why I think it's important to make a distinction between that behavior being understandable and it being 100% justified. For a grieving parent to object to the use of the term "loss" is understandable, but not completely rational or justified, imo.

I also think that using the word "apology" creates a problem here because it connotes culpabibility. In general, what people who are "sorry for your loss" are expressing are condolences. They are not making apologies, since they are not culpable for the death. Here, there are many, including Trayvon's parents, who think that GZ is culpable. GZ believes that he is not culpable, and some others, like myself, have not drawn a conclusion one way or the other. So what we're really talking about, imo, is the parents wanting an apology and GZ offering condolences instead. Whether or not his condolences are sincere is, imo, a separate question that I cannot know the answer to.

Thank you for the qualification. I should have added it myself.

Yes, of course, I understand grieving parents. But their resentment at the word "loss" is displaced anger at the tragedy itself.

Here, we seemed to be collectively on the verge of indicting the English language for not having a magic phrase of consolation. I think we should resist that impulse. LOL.

As for GZ's "apology" or "expression of consolation", there was no way that was going to go well, imo.

 

[Karmady]

Thank you for the qualification. I should have added it myself.

Yes, of course, I understand grieving parents. But their resentment at the word "loss" is displaced anger at the tragedy itself.

Here, we seemed to be collectively on the verge of indicting the English language for not having a magic phrase of consolation. I think we should resist that impulse. LOL.

As for GZ's "apology" or "expression of consolation", there was no way that was going to go well, imo.

just for the record, I was agreeing with what you said 100%. Just adding some thoughts that have been kicking around my head

 

[Adrienne37]

Over the last hour or so, CNN has been teasing that "GZ could be released at any moment," but I haven't heard anything definite yet. In the meantime, here's a new article from my Comcast homepage:

Zimmerman urged to keep low profile after release
Print By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP
3 hours ago

SANFORD, Fla. — George Zimmerman is getting out of jail. Now his defense team has to worry about keeping the neighborhood watch volunteer accused of gunning down Trayvon Martin safe on the outside.

Defense attorneys for other high-profile clients who awaited trial on bail had advice for how to protect the man whose shooting of the unarmed black 17-year-old sparked nationwide protests: Get him out of Florida, keep him from going out in public and never leave him alone.

"He clearly puts himself in jeopardy unless he takes precautions," said New York attorney Barry Slotnick, who represented subway shooter Bernhard Goetz in the 1980s.

A half dozen reporters, photographers and cameramen began staking out the Seminole County Jail early Saturday in Sanford, a day after a Florida judge agreed to let Zimmerman out on $150,000 bail. Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, said it would take a few days before Zimmerman is released. His family needs time to secure collateral for the bail, Zimmerman needs to be fitted with an electronic monitoring device and O'Mara said he must find a secure location for him...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20120420/US.Neighborhood.Watch/

I predict it won't take him 48 hours after his release before he's on his own website begging for more money.

~jmo~

 

[sleonardelli]

As his head was being pounded on the ground, he had no way of knowing if the person attacking him was capable of killing him or not. Couldn't TM have called 911 to report the person following him ? Was it really reasonable that he attacked GZ if that's what happened ?

Sorry but I don't see how this shows a head beaten against the sidewalk. Injured? Yes! If his head was banging the sidewalk, as GZ claims, there would be more of a road rash effect. Could the "scuffle" have caused GZ to hit something when he fell to the ground? Could be; IDK. However, IMHO, this photo CONTRADICTS GZ's statements.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/nationa...ody-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

 

[Desdemona]

I was watching CNN, HLN and Insessions druing the hearing, when one would go to a commercial I would go to another one to watch. I noted it during the hearing in a post. Zimmerman said Martin ran around the truck 3 times in his statement.

I was just wondering if it could be possible that since you were switching back and forth, what you heard could have been SA asking GZ whether he had stated 3 times (i.e. in the 3 statements to LE), that TM had run around his truck?

(Regardless, I'll keep looking for the "circled 3 times" in the hearing videos...)

 

[2goldfish]

Geoffrey Fieger?

you're awesome :loveyou: if you're a defense attorney you can be on the list too

 

[KrazyKatLadi]

Does it really matter if he "beat" or "hit" his head on the ground? How injured does one need to be to defend themselves? JMO

 

[annalia]

Thank you for the qualification. I should have added it myself.

Yes, of course, I understand grieving parents. But their resentment at the word "loss" is displaced anger at the tragedy itself.
Here, we seemed to be collectively on the verge of indicting the English language for not having a magic phrase of consolation. I think we should resist that impulse. LOL.

As for GZ's "apology" or "expression of consolation", there was no way that was going to go well, imo.

BBM

Did the parent's reaction have anything to do with GZ using the word loss? :waitasec:

I thought they said that the apology was self serving, that Tracy Martin was very upset, but I didn't hear them complaining about him using the word loss. I admit I may have missed it though.

JMHO

 

[2goldfish]

Sorry but I don't see how this shows a head beaten against the sidewalk. Injured? Yes! If his head was banging the sidewalk, as GZ claims, there would be more of a road rash effect. Could the "scuffle" have caused GZ to hit something when he fell to the ground? Could be; IDK. However, IMHO, this photo CONTRADICTS GZ's statements.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/nationa...ody-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

I dont have an opinion yet on GZ's injuries....what I am waiting for is the LE pics from the following day, which will show clearly whether he got the pavement to diaper treatment he claims. it's VERY OBVIOUS the following day if that type of injury occured.

I just hope for trayvon's and GZ's sakes that the SPD wasnt so keystone kopper that they didnt bother getting any.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

<BBM>

Wow, do I ever wish right now that I were a betting person, and that you had a LOT of money. :wink:

LOL, I'm not a betting person, so I don't make bets unless I'm reasonably (read: extremely) sure I'm not going to lose my money. I won't even play the slots when we go to Vegas

But do you have a more plausible explanation for the straight, almost squared off white section on his head? Flash glare wouldn't be that abrupt or symmetrical. It doesn't even fade, it just cuts off mid blood-flow. And you can tell from the blood pattern that the wound should actually be much higher up on his head, not right at the edge of the line.

 

[raeann]

I am still not going to be convinced with that picture, there is obviously some sort of manipulation because of that distinct straight line....as for the 'injuries'....well, this IS Florida, right? For all we know he could have had an earlier encounter with his wife and a golf club...who knows????? Maybe that's why he was on his way to "Target" and in a "fed up mood" as Taaffe described!

jmo

 

[2goldfish]

Does it really matter if he "beat" or "hit" his head on the ground? How injured does one need to be to defend themselves? JMO

well that all depends on a few qustions such as - did GZ attack trayvon, and trayvon saw the gun and fought like hell for his life, perhaps knocking GZ backwards?? did GZ fire and the pistol recoil into his face and knock him backwards?


we keep going back to not thinking GZ looks like he had his head beat into concrete because GZ HIMSELF gave that as the reason for the fear of his life and for the shooting that resulted.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I predict it won't take him 48 hours after his release before he's on his own website begging for more money.

~jmo~

DH and I just discussed the possibility (or probability) that we'll see GZ making the rounds of talk shows. Zimmerman has a history of not doing what he's told and taking matters into his own hands; I wouldn't expect him to change his behaviors despite concerns for his safety. :moo:

 

[ThoughtFox]

Sorry but I don't see how this shows a head beaten against the sidewalk. Injured? Yes! If his head was banging the sidewalk, as GZ claims, there would be more of a road rash effect. Could the "scuffle" have caused GZ to hit something when he fell to the ground? Could be; IDK. However, IMHO, this photo CONTRADICTS GZ's statements.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/nationa...ody-head-wounds-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

I believe it had been raining. He could have just slipped in the mud, fallen and hit his head.

I also wonder if Trayvon might have grabbed George's head to push him away at some point if George tried to tackle him? We'll never know because all the forensic evidence was washed from George's skull, although it would be quite interesting if Trayvon had some skin with DNA under his fingernails. However, I'm not holding my breath about whether they actually checked Trayvon's fingernails because that would actually make sense!

If the defense had evidence that Trayvon had grabbed the back of George's head it would really work more for them, because they could make it part of the "attack" story, instead of possibly Trayvon defending himself. So lack of evidence could hurt both sides.

 

[Adrienne37]

Does it really matter if he "beat" or "hit" his head on the ground? How injured does one need to be to defend themselves? JMO

Certainly more than a scratch.

~jmo~

 

[Emeralgem]

BBM

That's where my mindset is different. This isn't a game to me, I'm not rooting for one side or the other. I'm rooting for justice. If justice determines one's innocence or guilt, so be it. There are plenty of innocent people in jail today who have no business being there. It's not always about who's the defendant and who's the victim, it's about what the truth is.

JUSTICE HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED AND HIDDEN IN THE LAW

Rarely is the TRUTH ever revealed in a Court Of Law...JMHO

 

[2goldfish]

LOL, I'm not a betting person, so I don't make bets unless I'm reasonably (read: extremely) sure I'm not going to lose my money. I won't even play the slots when we go to Vegas

But do you have a more plausible explanation for the straight, almost squared off white section on his head? Flash glare wouldn't be that abrupt or symmetrical. It doesn't even fade, it just cuts off mid blood-flow. And you can tell from the blood pattern that the wound should actually be much higher up on his head, not right at the edge of the line.

being a photog with some :blushing: photoshop experience, what I think when I see that image is that perhaps GZ often wears a baseball cap and is not as tanned in that area....the camera with flash, in order to expose the rest of the photo (usually a center weighted average...was it a phone camera?) would overexpose a lighter area (and the fact that it does look like a straight line leads me to think it's GZ's tan lines from a hat)

 

[Dr.Fessel]

I was just wondering if it could be possible that since you were switching back and forth, what you heard could have been SA asking GZ whether he had stated 3 times (i.e. in the 3 statements to LE), that TM had run around his truck?

(Regardless, I'll keep looking for the "circled 3 times" in the hearing videos...)

No and I believe that CNN transcript has all of George's testimony.