17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30

[Phoenixfla]

A few years ago, at another club in town, a dancer went to meet a customer for a private party, and she brought he boyfriend as a "bouncer" and they robbed and killed him. Guess who was sued?? The club! It is also part of their record and you only get so many strikes until they can shut you down.

Everyone that works in a club has to have an adult entertainment license. Because she met the guy in the club, and met him after her shift, the club was responsible even though everything that happened, happened off club property.

ETA: You know what else they do? Certain things during a lap dance are illegal. You are not allowed to touch certain areas and the customer is not allowed to put their hands on you at all. If a undercover is in the club and you allow them to touch you or put your body on them in what they consider an "illegal" way -- you will be charged with prostitution.

Thanks for the explaination. I thought just having the party was somehow illegal, but its more of the activities that go on at the party that are illegal.

 

[Just K]

I hope you WSleuthers don't think I'm crazy when I say I think there are other voice/voices that are in the background on the Zimmerman 911 tape. I do hear them. During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I&#8217;ll let them know to call you when [they&#8217;re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight. In other words he couldn't have been on his way back and ambushed. That Zimmerman had stopped following of Martin and was walking back to his truck and confronted by Martin has to be hogwash IMO. I'm no Colombo but I do have headphones. <p>Do any of you hear the voices? :crosseyed:<p>

THEORY IMO
Yesterday afternoon, with headphones, I re-listened to the GZ non-emergency call SEVERAL times. I took notes on timing and compared timing, words spoken, background noises and then I replayed the section where he is changing his mind on how to meet with officers...I heard whispering from another voice in the background @ 7:13:35/36 and just about the time GZ says, "you got it."

Also, I paid very close attention to the metal clicking and knocking noises and the time between them. It is my belief that at the time of these noises or very soon thereafter that someone else is in the company of GZ or at least close enough that the voice whispering is picked up by GZ's cellphone. IMO, I ruled out the noises as coming from the call center's background noises or the keyboard stokes of the operator...

The above link to the ABC VIDEO REPORT confirms that the person who took the picture is also the person who was asked, by GZ, to call his wife.

It is my opinion that GZ, had help to corner and possible detain or assist in the surveillance of TM; at least from 7:12 PM until that person, who saw the scuffle, told them to stop, went inside, called 911 and reported the gunshot. It is IMO that this is possibly the man that asked to be unnamed or referred to as "John." There is the one 911 call, from that one male, which is the shortest of all the 911 calls. All the rest are longer and far more detailed.

GZ had at least TWO minutes, from the end of his call and before Trayvon was shot, to signal his friend.

 

[rotterdam]

BBM

"John" was actually one of the first eyewitnesses interviewed by the media after the event - the day after, if I recall correctly. Way before it was made into the nationwide news it is now. I would not consider him "new", as that implies he came out only to defend Zimmerman. The truth is, he was saying this long before many of us knew about the incident.

I wonder if he was the one with the flashlight that another witness referred to.
The cops would have just parked the cruiser and put their big search light on.

 

[Donjeta]

If you work as a bouncer in a club full of drunks, then you get into fights literally every night.

And hundreds and hundreds of couples get into fights and get RO's on each other. Not a good thing, but it does not make you a cold blooded killer.

Sure, he has a temper. But I do not see him as an out of control monster, like many are painting him to be.

OK, the thing is, IMO, for me it's not even an issue here. I am not really interested in whether he is an out of control monster on a daily basis. I am assuming that he would have been arrested more often if he regularly beats people up and shoots at them for fun but I could be wrong. I do see him as someone with anger management issues. He may have been trying to deal with them and had some success.

But that is not really the issue here imo. I am interested in what happened to Trayvon Martin and whether George Zimmerman should be convicted for 2nd degree murder. It is not imo necessary for GZ to be an out of control evil monster, whatever that means, to have committed a crime.

 

[jjenny]

I wonder if he was the one with the flashlight that another witness referred to.
The cops would have just parked the cruiser and put their big search light on.

I think it's very clear John was not the one with flashlight. He didn't stick around after he saw Zimmerman and Trayvon fighting. He went upstairs to call 911.

 

[m00c0w]

I wonder if he was the one with the flashlight that another witness referred to.
The cops would have just parked the cruiser and put their big search light on.

The incident occurred in between buildings. I'm not sure a vehicle-mounted light would have helped much in that scenario, unless they decided to drive all over the crime scene.

 

[LolaMoon08]

And ONE former co-worker tells his version of the story and it is fully believed? How do we know what really happened?

Sure, why not? He has a history of putting his hands on people when he shouldn't? If he had no history of putting his hands on people, then I would be more than willing to not believe it. He has a history of being aggressive -- he chased down a motorist for crying out loud.

It would also be another thing if the former co-worker was saying he was a <modslipping myself> but he didn't. He said he was usually a cool guy, but when he lost his temper, he REALLY lost his temper.

Any man that would put their hands on any woman is no man at all. There are ways of dealing with drunk women -- or even high women. If he was getting so upset, he should have walked away and had the other bouncer deal with her. He doesn't know how to just walk away and he takes everything to an extreme.

MOO

 

[Donjeta]

Assuming any of it actually happened. Prosecution sure was not using that alleged incident to illustrate Zimmerman's supposed propensity for violence.

Well, how could they? They would have needed to bring in witnesses to describe the incident and how many would be willing to?

 

[Desdemona]

In the injury picture, GZ is on his cellphone. Based on the time of the injury picture, he should have been in custody, which generally involves handcuffs. When it was questioned some said it was possible he was cuffed in front, which is why he was able to get the phone to his ear. But in the jail videos he is clearly handcuffed behind his back. So does that mean he wasn't handcuffed at the scene yet or did the officer move the cuffs from the front to the back? If that is GZ in the injury pic, then he most likely was not yet in handcuffs. Whoever took that pic was there pretty darn quick, before the police officers?

<BBM>

Do we know the exact time LE first made actual contact with GZ after the shooting?

I don't think the two partial police reports indicate such, JMO:

• [1] Officer Ayala's report states he was "dispatched" at approximately 19:17, or 7:17pm.
  
• He states that while he was en route, the 911 calls reporting the shooting started coming in (time not indicated, but presumably available elsewhere).
  
• Then, when he arrived (time not indicated), Officer Smith already had the shooter in custody.

--

• [2] Officer Smith's report says he "responded" at approximately 19:17. The address he responded to was the club house IMO, 1111 Retreat View Circle; i.e. he headed there first.
  
• As he arrived, (time not indicated) dispatch was getting 911 reports of shots fired at a different address, and 911 reports of a subject lying in the grass at yet another address.
  
• So he re-routed down to 2821 Retreat View Circle, parked his patrol car, got out, and began to canvas the area (time not indicated.)
  
• He states that as he walked between the buildings, he first observed GZ (time not indicated). He doesn't mention whether GZ was standing or not, nor whether he was using a cell phone. Smith also saw TM on the ground.
  
• Smith says he spoke with GZ, ascertained he was the original caller re the suspicious person, GZ told Smith he was also the shooter, GZ informed Smith he had the gun in his waistband.
  
• Smith says GZ complied with all of his verbal commands, he placed GZ in handcuffs, then secured the gun from his waistband (time not indicated).
  
• He says that Ayala arrived shortly after GZ was secured (time not indicated).

~ Paraphrased by me from police reports, any errors are mine. JMO ~

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf


HTH with the timeline. I don't see any actual times given in the narratives, besides 19:17 specified as both the time of "dispatch" (Ayala) and "response" (Smith), but ICBW.

----
In any case, IMO the police reports indicate that GZ was not yet handcuffed by the time the pic was snapped. JMO

 

[jjenny]

Well, how could they? They would have needed to bring in witnesses to describe the incident and how many would be willing to?

If that person is willing to talk to the press why exactly wouldn't he be willing to talk to prosecution?

 

[LolaMoon08]

Well, how could they? They would have needed to bring in witnesses to describe the incident and how many would be willing to?

It won't even be used as evidence against him because it was an illegal party and anything he was paid was under the table. No proof. Plus, I'm not sure this "co-worker" would want to get the club they were working at in trouble. I don't even know if George was on the clubs payroll -- which could really get the club in trouble.

 

[jjenny]

<BBM>

Do we know the exact time LE first made actual contact with GZ after the shooting?

I don't think the two partial police reports indicate such, JMO:

• [1] Officer Ayala's report states he was "dispatched" at approximately 19:17, or 7:17pm.
  
• He states that while he was en route, the 911 calls reporting the shooting started coming in (time not indicated, but presumably available elsewhere).
  
• Then, when he arrived (time not indicated), Officer Smith already had the shooter in custody.

--

• [2] Officer Smith's report says he "responded" at approximately 19:17. The address he responded to was the club house IMO, 1111 Retreat View Circle; i.e. he headed there first.
  
• As he arrived, (time not indicated) dispatch was getting 911 reports of shots fired at a different address, and 911 reports of a subject lying in the grass at yet another address.
  
• So he re-routed down to 2821 Retreat View Circle, parked his patrol car, got out, and began to canvas the area (time not indicated.)
  
• He states that as he walked between the buildings, he first observed GZ (time not indicated). He doesn't mention whether GZ was standing or not, nor whether he was using a cell phone. Smith also saw TM on the ground.
  
• Smith says he spoke with GZ, ascertained he was the original caller re the suspicious person, GZ told Smith he was also the shooter, GZ informed Smith he had the gun in his waistband.
  
• Smith says GZ complied with all of his verbal commands, he placed GZ in handcuffs, then secured the gun from his waistband (time not indicated).
  
• He says that Ayala arrived shortly after GZ was secured (time not indicated).

~ Paraphrased by me from police reports, any errors are mine. JMO ~

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf


HTH with the timeline. I don't see any actual times given in the narratives, besides 19:17 specified as both the time of "dispatch" (Ayala) and "response" (Smith), but ICBW.

----
In any case, IMO the police reports indicate that GZ was not yet handcuffed by the time the pic was snapped. JMO

Thanks. Responded and dispatched is not the same as arrived and on the scene, obviously.
I have no clue why people are claiming the officers arrived at the scene on those times.

 

[Donjeta]

The thing is -- I've never known a party where bouncers had to be there -- where strippers weren't involved. That is what an "illegal party" is. A bouncer would not be at a simple house party with a bunch of kids drinking and doing drugs. They are there for a reason and that reason is to protect the girls and to make sure they get their money.

Did you read this story?

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/sandy-springs-cracking-down-on-illegal-house-parti/nJZht/
It doesn't say anything about prostitution, it was just promoters selling alcohol and food to a huge number of party people without city permits, and they had got off-duty police officers to act as bouncers.

 

[m00c0w]

Sure, why not? He has a history of putting his hands on people when he shouldn't? If he had no history of putting his hands on people, then I would be more than willing to not believe it. He has a history of being aggressive -- he chased down a motorist for crying out loud.

It would also be another thing if the former co-worker was saying he was a <modslipping myself> but he didn't. He said he was usually a cool guy, but when he lost his temper, he REALLY lost his temper.

Any man that would put their hands on any woman is no man at all. There are ways of dealing with drunk women -- or even high women. If he was getting so upset, he should have walked away and had the other bouncer deal with her. He doesn't know how to just walk away and he takes everything to an extreme.

MOO

In my opinion, and my opinion only, it's a far stretch to say that a mutually physical altercation between a couple (that the fiancée apparently admitted to in the 911 call, according to testimony at the bond hearing) and pushing the arm of a plainclothes LEO who may or may not have identified themselves, is indicative that he would have thrown a woman across the room at a party. Yes, there were violent instances in his past, but nothing even close to that level of unprovoked "rage' violence. I find it more believable that someone came out and was paid some money to embellish a story. It's pretty much unsourced except for one "anonymous" tipster.

 

[Phoenixfla]

No, I am assuming that she is a dancer, who if she was doing an illegal party, she could be charged with prostitution. That is what illegal parties are. When dancers go and do private parties -- which -- yes-- legally it is prostitution.

If what they do is prostitution, wouldn't that make them a prostitute?

 

[Desdemona]

Yes, I remember this. But I'm not questioning who took the picture. The questions this raises for me:

1. Why is the time stamp on the injury photo after the time that the officer states GZ is in custody?

2. If GZ was in custody, why wasn't he in handcuffs? (Generally officers will not radio that they have someone in custody until after they have put someone in handcuffs.) The second officer arriving also confirms that GZ is in custody.

3. If GZ was in fact in custody, was he handcuffed in front of his body?

4. GZ clearly has a phone to his ear. Why was he allowed on the phone after he was in custody? (Generally officers also will not allow someone to have access to their phone once they are handcuffed and in custody.)

5. If GZ was handcuffed in the front of his body on scene why does he climb out of the back of the patrol car handcuffed to the rear?

6. If GZ is in custody, who was allowed to photograph someone in custody and allowed in that crime scene?

Something is not right with this situation. It's a pretty tight window time wise. How did this picture taker manage to be there after TM was shot but before the police got there?

Perhaps the picture-taker was a witness? A neighbor, as has been suggested? ICBW, but the timing of the picture doesn't indicate anything at all suspicious to me, timeline-wise.

BBM/JMO

 

[elementary]

deleted

 

[Donjeta]

If that person is willing to talk to the press why exactly wouldn't he be willing to talk to prosecution?

It's hard to be anonymous when you're a witness in a bond hearing.
:moo:

 

[elementary]

So it's really hard for them to come up with the money, but they'll have it by the middle of next week? Must not be that hard, then. I can't imagine my own family coming up with 150,000 less than a week after a bond hearing. Sorry, but I can't muster sympathy for them. I think they already have the money, and are just waiting to the middle of next week to make it look like it was hard for them to find it.

As I understand it, they only have to come up with 10 per cent of the bond, $15,000.

 

[jjenny]

As I understand it, they only have to come up with 10 per cent of the bond, $15,000.

But they have to have enough assets to put up the rest as a collateral.