17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[Aedrys]

Nowadays, most people snag an attorney when they're involved in something like this. Anything to do with the police, shootings, death. I know I would. Unfortunately, we can no longer depend on all of LE to be honest and without an agenda. I say this as someone with a BiL in LE. I mentioned before that when we had a discussion and I told him I would immediately hire a lawyer, he smirked at me and said I was guilty as far as he was concerned. Is that really the attitude we want in LE when we have done nothing wrong? :what:

It's not just LE, btw. As seen in the Casey case, sometimes defense lawyers will allow people to be torn apart in the media and in court. Most of the witnesses had to have a lawyer in Casey's case because of that. I wouldn't put all of the blame on LE. Now people have to watch out for character assassination through many types of media by defense attorneys. It's a good idea all around that if a person becomes a witness in a case, they need a lawyer to help with LE and defense attorneys.

 

[Aedrys]

I have a question. If GZ chooses not to use SYG, then there's no need for an SYG hearing, right?

 

[Sensei]

Were TM's parents out for the evening when this happened?
Not that it matters but when I was looking at some of the maps last night of how close TM was to the door to home, I was just curious if he was going back to an empty house.

That is a lot of commotion in the neighborhood to not draw your attention, especially as a parent of a teen I would think. And when they called in the morning to say he was missing there has not been any mention of the previous night incident? Although obviously LE was right out there with the photos taken the night before.

Just curious, and while TMs phone may have been password protected and it might not have helped, the new thing for emergency contacts is ICE. In Case of Emergency, they are asking people to start entering an ICE entry in your phone for emergency workers to quickly reference. Both for notifying them, but also getting your identity and medical history as quickly as possible.

The company my hubby works for has this as a requirement, and at least that portion of your phone is not suppose to be locked while on their property.

Trayvons father and his girlfriend had gone out to dinner and returned home about ll:00 pm The younger son of the girlfriend was at home.

Why the police did not follow up on the information that may have been found on Trayvons phone is one of the mysteries of the investigation, since I am quite sure that a warrant to access the information could have been gotten in less than three weeks, but the evidence of statements and other behaviors lead inexhorably to the conclusion that the investigation was concluded and the file put in the dead files within two weeks of the incident.

 

[HiHater]

Since he has seen the facts and we have not, I tend to believe GZ acted under the SYG law.Lee made a mistake saying GZ said "hey do you live here"instead of what TM gf said "what are you doing here" IMo not a big deal.If I spent 30 yrs doing my job with Le and people who had no idea of the facts of this case saying the police were not doing their job I would be annoyed too.JMO He is a scapegoat.

Chief Bill Lee is not a scapegoat. He's a high level criminal justice administrator. He is responsible for the training and day to day operations of every officer employed under him. When his officers make/made mistakes, he's supposed to explain what happened and why it will never happen again. What disciplinary actions or policy changes will occur. If that makes him a scapegoat, then I'll agree. He was highly paid, educated, and trained to do the job the city of Sanford entrusted him with. What went wrong?

At the crux of his resignation is probably the fact that he blamed the victim. That's a no-go. It doesn't sit right with the public.

Then we see leaks from HIS department. We see HIS officers discrediting witnesses to the crime in the media. Better yet, we see HIM giving statements on behalf of the killer in this case. We see HIM saying that the victim's family "misconstrued" what was said to them. That's a nice way of saying the victim's family lied IMO.

Chief Bill Lee is an adult. He understands cause and effect. He fully understands that there are consequences for whatever a person does or says in life. To a large degree, he bears that same responsibility for his officers.

He made his bed, now it's time for him to get comfortable and lay in it.

JMO MOO IMO

 

[HiHater]

I have a question. If GZ chooses not to use SYG, then there's no need for an SYG hearing, right?

Right...

 

[rossva]

deleted I should read all the posts before asking a question already answered.

 

[cityslick]

GZ tells us exactly what he plans to do. Then he did it.

"These a&sholes, they always get away"
"effing punks/c*ons"
"Are you following him?" "yes"
"Can you just have them call me to see where I'm at?"

He didn't want this one to get away, he followed him, and he continues to follow even after being told not to. Why would he follow someone, or chase because he's already said twice that the person ran, if he has no intention to catch them?

Whether or not he pulled out the gun first is up for debate. I have a hard time believing that you are able to unholster a gun while someone sits on your chest and beats the crap out of you, smothers you, and repeatedly smashes your head...

He may have just tackled him, he could have grabbed him...who knows? The point is that his actions caused the struggle.

JMO MOO IMO

You said you thought he tried to 'detain' him, I assumed you had an actual idea on how he attempted to do that after he asked 'what are you doing here'?

 

[impatientredhead]

JMO/IMO
But you better have the facts.....

What if an annoying, busybody neighbor doesn't recognize a Dad carrying his screaming, tantrum throwing 2 year old? Dad trying to put child in car, ignores "orders" from annoying neighbor...annoying neighbor is armed, "certain" he's watching a kidnapping, and he's darn gonna stop it, with deadly force.

The law as written is over reaching, but in all honesty to your question if you could make a decent case of why you "believed" at the time you were stopping a crime you very well could be immune in Florida for shooting that person in the back, even when you end up being wrong. As long as you can convince a judge first, or a jury second if that judge won't give you immunity, that it was a reasonable belief at the time.

I posted several recent cases in Florida that have been given immunity. All of them involved the shooter/stabber/living one to have pursued, initiated, confronted, and frequently lied thru their teeth. All were given immunity or acquitted. One was a stabbing that the stabber pursued for a city block over a car radio, not a child, a radio...... stabbed the man, left him to bleed out, took the radios, hid the weapon, went home and went to bed, no 911 call, denied the stabbing until he saw it was on video, then said the man was armed, then admitted okay he wasn't armed, but he swung the bag of radios at my head after I chased screaming like a knife wielding lunatic (with a prior criminal history), and that bag of radios the man was defending his life with could have killed me if they hit me.

Granted immunity at his stand your ground hearing, trial dismissed. There were several crazy ones, but that those are the rulings that will determine how GZs case has to be ruled, SYG hearing, jury or appeal..... somewhere along the way he will get standing. They didn't charge him that night because this path is inevitable. The law has to be rewritten, but GZ cannot be thrown to the wolves if this how the state has been handling the cases and told their citizens they interpret acceptable behavior. And if GZ has a permit, wants to play pretend cop, I promise you he is aware of the SYG rulings and they probably did play into his mindset.

He has called 911 fifty times, and followed several of them, no reports of confrontations. He probably felt pretty confident that night. But the law that night is the same one that let the stabber, several shootings, and one person who ran the other one over with their car (talk about an unbalanced fight and ability to flee) walk free. GZs case is much more arguable than those.

 

[cityslick]

Exactly. He didn't describe any suspicious activities to dispatch. Walking around...staring at GZ...well, GZ you're staring at him! :what:

Seems like Trayvon realized he was being watched and then reacted by running...

JMO MOO IMO

He didn't run for very long, considering the call from his GF came less than a minute when GZ said he was 'running'. Then when his GF said she asked him to run, he didn't want too.

 

[suzihawk]

Could you please post a link where it is shown as a fact that the SFD, or, for that matter, anyone has lied about this case?

Just one quickly off the top of my head...

That GZ was 'squeaky clean'.

 

[annalia]

What Comissioner Mahany says is quite a contradiction

"Chief Lee is paying for the sins of past police officers and police chiefs," said Commissioner Patty Mahany. "He has been here in office 10 months. How do you steer a boat that big, Mr. Mayor? How do you steer a boat in 10 months to a complete turnaround? You don't."
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cf...icles/cfn/2012/4/23/sanford_police_chief.html

So she acknowledges that there are major problems ( can't steer a boat that big in 10 months to a complete turnaround ) within that police department, but Chief Lee only being on the job 10 months hasn't had enough time to turn it around. That clearly indicates that these major problems still exist.

Yet here she says that their community was never broken;

Elected officials used this man as a scapegoat to heal our community," she said in a telephone interview with the Los Angeles Times. "Our community was never broken."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-sanford-chief-resigns-20120423,0,3336571.story

Sure commissioner you go right ahead and just blame it all on everyone else.


And as far as what Chief Lee said, how anyone can even attempt to either minimize or excuse it is beyond me but I guess it's par for the course. Either the case was still being investigated at that time as some say, ( which makes what he said inexcusable) or that conclusion was made very early on without having all of the evidence, ( which also makes what he said inexcusable). He was the Chief of Police, not a defense attorney.


I agree with all those who said please stop insulting our intelligence.

JMHO

 

[cityslick]

He was a criminal, just like the ones that always get away.

Why was he running after him? Because he was going to get away.........

Dispatcher: He's running, which way is he running?
GZ: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.

Towards where he was staying.

 

[Sensei]

I have a question. If GZ chooses not to use SYG, then there's no need for an SYG hearing, right?

If he chooses not to have a SYG hearing, he can still use SYG in Court as a defense, but the hearing is in front of a Judge, who can then determine that the shooting was justified under SYG by a preponderance of the evidence and preclude any further legal charges against GZ. IOW if the Judge were to determine that the shooting was justified under SYG there would not be a trial GZ would be free to go.

If MOM believes that there is a good chance that a Judge will side with them we will see a SYG hearing, otoh if he feels that there is not much chance we will not, since GZ can still use SYG if he wants to, but if they choose the hearing and lose they are giving the Prosecutors a free preview of exactly what the defense strategy and story of the incident is going to be, a free shot at knowing exactly what to prepare for, what story they have to shoot down to make their case.

 

[impatientredhead]

Seriously??? Isn't it enough GZ admitted he shot Trayvon? Or has GZ changed that story also.

No, it is not enough, not in Florida and not the way the law is written and how it has been applied.

 

[JeannaT]

In Virginia, iF GZ so much as forced TM to move from one spot to another it is called "Abduction."
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...47+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
§ 18.2-47. Abduction and kidnapping defined; punishment.

A. Any person who, by force, intimidation or deception, and without legal justification or excuse, seizes, takes, transports, detains or secretes another person with the intent to deprive such other person of his personal liberty or to withhold or conceal him from any person, authority or institution lawfully entitled to his charge, shall be deemed guilty of "abduction."

B. Any person who, by force, intimidation or deception, and without legal justification or excuse, seizes, takes, transports, detains or secretes another person with the intent to subject him to forced labor or services shall be deemed guilty of "abduction." For purposes of this subsection, the term "intimidation" shall include destroying, concealing, confiscating, withholding, or threatening to withhold a passport, immigration document, or other governmental identification or threatening to report another as being illegally present in the United States.

C. The provisions of this section shall not apply to any law-enforcement officer in the performance of his duty. The terms "abduction" and "kidnapping" shall be synonymous in this Code. Abduction for which no punishment is otherwise prescribed shall be punished as a Class 5 felony.

D. If an offense under subsection A is committed by the parent of the person abducted and punishable as contempt of court in any proceeding then pending, the offense shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor in addition to being punishable as contempt of court. However, such offense, if committed by the parent of the person abducted and punishable as contempt of court in any proceeding then pending and the person abducted is removed from the Commonwealth by the abducting parent, shall be a Class 6 felony in addition to being punishable as contempt of court.

(Code 1950, §§ 18.1-36, 18.1-37; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1979, c. 663; 1980, c. 506; 1997, c. 747; 2009, c. 662.)

Right. But looking at someone doesn't "force" them to move. Watching someone who is in public doesn't constitute kidnapping, or any crime.

 

[HiHater]

You said you thought he tried to 'detain' him, I assumed you had an actual idea on how he attempted to do that after he asked 'what are you doing here'?

I have no idea, and I'm not going to guess. I know how LE would detain a person, but I'm not familiar with common actions of crazed vigilantes...

JMO MOO IMO

 

[JeannaT]

I have no idea, and I'm not going to guess. I know how LE would detain a person, but I'm not familiar with common actions of crazed vigilantes...

JMO MOO IMO

When you say you thought Z tried to detain Trayvon, you did guess, in fact.

It's anyone's guess what happened - the only living person who knows is Z.

 

[Montjoy]

If someone who is larger than you is beating on you, I'd say that is reasonable grounds for believing that you are in grave danger.

GZ was considerably larger than TM. Height isn't the issue, weight is, as evinced in weight classes for boxing, etc. GZ might have been two weight classes above TM, in fact, so the only person who could/should feel a fear owing to size is TM.

But let's not forget that GZ had been a bouncer. How reasonable would it be for him to be deathly afraid of a skinny kid, especially when he was armed and had left his car to engage him? Not reasonable at all.

 

[annalia]

Nowadays, most people snag an attorney when they're involved in something like this. Anything to do with the police, shootings, death. I know I would. Unfortunately, we can no longer depend on all of LE to be honest and without an agenda. I say this as someone with a BiL in LE. I mentioned before that when we had a discussion and I told him I would immediately hire a lawyer, he smirked at me and said I was guilty as far as he was concerned. Is that really the attitude we want in LE when we have done nothing wrong? :what:

And we know that in this case witnesses have stated they had issues with LE regarding their statements. So getting an attorney to protect them seems logical.

JMHO

 

[jaded cat]

If someone who is larger than you is beating on you, I'd say that is reasonable grounds for believing that you are in grave danger.

Well, I would believe that. Perhaps you might believe something else.

Taller is not larger. GZ weighed more than TM at the time of the incident.