17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

[annalia]

This just a guess but as far as the 3-4-5 inch height difference between GZ and Trayvon, I would imagine that knowing you have a loaded weapon at the ready might tend to make you feel taller.

Kind of silly, in my opinion, that because Trayvon was a little taller means that GZ couldn't have been the aggressor, or stronger. Doesn't matter what he looked like at the bond hearing in his oversized suit, he was far from small or out of shape in that jail video.

JMHO

 

[LC446]

The law as written is over reaching, but in all honesty to your question if you could make a decent case of why you "believed" at the time you were stopping a crime you very well could be immune in Florida for shooting that person in the back, even when you end up being wrong. As long as you can convince a judge first, or a jury second if that judge won't give you immunity, that it was a reasonable belief at the time.

I posted several recent cases in Florida that have been given immunity. All of them involved the shooter/stabber/living one to have pursued, initiated, confronted, and frequently lied thru their teeth. All were given immunity or acquitted. One was a stabbing that the stabber pursued for a city block over a car radio, not a child, a radio...... stabbed the man, left him to bleed out, took the radios, hid the weapon, went home and went to bed, no 911 call, denied the stabbing until he saw it was on video, then said the man was armed, then admitted okay he wasn't armed, but he swung the bag of radios at my head after I chased screaming like a knife wielding lunatic (with a prior criminal history), and that bag of radios the man was defending his life with could have killed me if they hit me.

Granted immunity at his stand your ground hearing, trial dismissed. There were several crazy ones, but that those are the rulings that will determine how GZs case has to be ruled, SYG hearing, jury or appeal..... somewhere along the way he will get standing. They didn't charge him that night because this path is inevitable. The law has to be rewritten, but GZ cannot be thrown to the wolves if this how the state has been handling the cases and told their citizens they interpret acceptable behavior. And if GZ has a permit, wants to play pretend cop, I promise you he is aware of the SYG rulings and they probably did play into his mindset.

He has called 911 fifty times, and followed several of them, no reports of confrontations. He probably felt pretty confident that night. But the law that night is the same one that let the stabber, several shootings, and one person who ran the other one over with their car (talk about an unbalanced fight and ability to flee) walk free. GZs case is much more arguable than those.

I absolutely see your point. However, if I remember correctly, in those cases you posted, it seemed to me that everyone that was killed was engaged in some type of active crime at the time. There in lies the difference for me. Trayvon wasn't doing anything illegal to warrant a following, chase, whatever you want to call it. He was simply walking in a neighborhood. I anticipate that you will say that he was committing an assault when he was shot, which is an active crime, but I would argue that he was simply defending himself from a stranger who had followed him and confronted him.

 

[Rob774]

I thought the difference was only 20-25 pounds. I think TM had at least 3-4 inches on him.

I think the weight difference was probably more than that back in Feb. Granted not the 100 lbs like we originally thought. But dont' think the thin guy we see today, after months of losing weight over stress, is the same guy who tussled with Trayvon IMO. There's a reason why boxing is broken up by weight classes, not height. Becuase the heavier you are, the more advantage you have. So its still hard for me to picture Trayvon pinning Zimmerman.

 

[impatientredhead]

Thanks for posting this. Your information about the possible legal ramifications (or lack of them) was shocking, and so sad.

And it's awful to think there could be a murder of any person because someone was armed, ready to shoot and uninformed.

It's just mind boggling to me that someone with a deadly weapon can potentially legally kill at will (as long as they carefully say a few magic words.) :banghead:
I believe SYG tramples on the rights of the unarmed.

SYG has its place, but I think absolving someone from the duty to retreat (which use to put you at fault if you followed or pursued) should be limited to your place of residence. Prior to SYG people who had home invaders had to PROVE that they did everything possible to flee the intruder, including abandoning your home when there was no way to know if this person had an accomplice outside and you were running into danger instead of away.

But SYG swings to far in absolving you from fleeing in a public or shared place. Everyone I know that legally carries would NEVER pull their firearm unless they knew there was no other choice. And that should be the standard, morally and legally, IMO.

 

[Inabsentia]

I don't buy that really - I live in a neighborhood with a cul de sac - if you get in there, you are lost - I know who walks around in the evenings and it would be easy to spot someone new to the area....I would definitely be suspicious of a person walking in the rain in a hoodie - since we mainly have families with young children walking or adults jogging. GZ was probably even more in tune to who was normally out and about in his neighborhood since he is a watchman. and I don't understand why people keep saying he was profiling his race....didn't the 911 make it clear that he didn't know he was black to begin with?
!!

This is not a good comparison, though. How many houses are on your cul de sac? Six? Ten? Twenty? The Retreat at Twin Lakes has more than 200 homes, many of them rental properties in a frequent state of flux. That is conservatively 500 people. I find it hard to believe that GZ knew all of them and their guests on sight, and could recognize each one at dusk in the rain. Moo

 

[Sensei]

According to Concerned P's estimations, it's likely that TM was already at the cut through by the time GZ said 'he's running'. He needed to take a few steps and he would already be between the two building. From that point, it would taken him 14 seconds to get to his doorstep. By the time his GF called, he could of technically already been in front of his house talking to her. But was he actively trying to 'evade' GZ or did he just want to get out of sight. I think of 'evade' is running all over the place, away from the area until someone can't find you anymore. Not running for seconds then stopping and talking on the phone for a few minutes.

GZ's entire story has been brought to question, why when he says 'he's running' that it's automatically assumed as a fact?

I am not saying that it was fact, I am saying that by George Zimmerman's own narrative of he night his own words lead to the conclusion that Trayvon was attempting to get away from him....whether he was actually running or George just said that and Trayvon merely stepped around the corner of the building to get away from him is irrelevant. Trayvon was very close to the place where he was staying...he was not found across the complex or in an area that would make anyone say, "Well why was he over there" his path was leading him to his house, while George has thus far given no logical reasonable or sensible reason for being where he was at the time of the incident, there have been stories floated as to why he was there but they truly offend common sense, the only reason for George to have been where he shot Trayvon was if he was continuing to follow and eventually caught up to Trayvon. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[PaintingAnemone]

being a wrestling mom, that 20 - 30 pounds would be appx. 2 weight classes to me.

It was possibly more. At the time of the incident, the police report estimated Martin at 160, but his family says it was 140.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-of-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-deceptive

Zimmerman was 185 on his booking date, and this is AFTER friends and family said he had lost weight.
http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/new...ents/george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf

His weight does not appear to have been noted on the initial incident report, that I can find.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf

So we're looking at a possible weight difference of at least 40 or 50 pounds at the time of the incident.

 

[impatientredhead]

I absolutely see your point. However, if I remember correctly, in those cases you posted, it seemed to me that everyone that was killed was engaged in some type of active crime at the time. There in lies the difference for me. Trayvon wasn't doing anything illegal to warrant a following, chase, whatever you want to call it. He was simply walking in a neighborhood. I anticipate that you will say that he was committing an assault when he was shot, which is an active crime, but I would argue that he was simply defending himself from a stranger who had followed him and confronted him.

The stabbing involved a property crime, but there are many that do not. One that was the most similar was a home owner who decided a neighbor was speeding while coming thru the neighborhood, went inside got his gun, rode his bike to their house, went on their property to confront them, got into a fight with the passenger (who couldn't have commited the so called crime of speeding, and the driver was parked so there was no crime in progress), the pursuer/intiator/on their property shot him twice in the head. Protected by SYG.

edit to add, SYG does exclude someone committing a crime (like a home intruder) from so called defending themselves and claiming immunity. That would exclude GZ if he was committing a crime but being he is the 911 caller you are not going to reach that requirement in a court of law. It excludes immunity from one committing a crime, it does not require a crime being committed by the person you kill. Only the reasonable belief that you or someone else is going to suffer serious injury or loss of life, or that you are stopping a property crime.

The intent was probably there but as written...

 

[Adrienne37]

Wow, was just looking through some old transcripts, etc. from previous interviews and came across something very interesting in regards to who might have taken the photograph of the "injuries" on the back of Zimmerman's head. Tell me what you guys think (keep in mind that this is coming from Joe Oliver who we all know has been completely discredited as to his relationship with Zimmerman).

GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.

But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?

HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.

GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --

HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.

GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?



~jmo~

 

[Inabsentia]

I think the weight difference was probably more than that back in Feb. Granted not the 100 lbs like we originally thought. But dont' think the thin guy we see today, after months of losing weight over stress, is the same guy who tussled with Trayvon IMO. There's a reason why boxing is broken up by weight classes, not height. Becuase the heavier you are, the more advantage you have. So its still hard for me to picture Trayvon pinning Zimmerman.

Many threads back I posted both boxing and wrestling weights broken down by class. At the time I used weights for Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman as provided by their respective families. That seemed the fairest and most accurate way in the absence of an autopsy report or a complete police report. At the time Trayvon's parents said he weighed between 140 and 145 and George's father said he weighed 190. Those represent a substantial 45 to 50 pound difference between the two, and at least two weight classes in either sport. I am not going to look up all of the links again, so I will say moo. But they are in my old post.

 

[HiHater]

I wonder why GZ signed that the Pretrial Interview Intake Sheet was true to the best of his knowledge...it says Education: Grad or GED, and lists no college years. For prior criminal record, it gives the option for if he has ever been on diversion---and that part is marked out...

Just small things...but still.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/intake_sheet.pdf

JMO MOO IMO

 

[Adrienne37]

It was possibly more. At the time of the incident, the police report estimated Martin at 160, but his family says it was 140.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-of-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-deceptive

Zimmerman was 185 on his booking date, and this is AFTER friends and family said he had lost weight.
http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/new...ents/george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf

His weight does not appear to have been noted on the initial incident report, that I can find.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf

So we're looking at a possible weight difference of at least 40 or 50 pounds at the time of the incident.

Additionally, we know that in 2005 on his booking sheet, he was listed as 5 feet 9, 250 pounds.

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/exhibit_list_redacted.pdf


~jmo~

 

[HiHater]

It was possibly more. At the time of the incident, the police report estimated Martin at 160, but his family says it was 140.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...-of-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-deceptive

Zimmerman was 185 on his booking date, and this is AFTER friends and family said he had lost weight.
http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/new...ents/george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf

His weight does not appear to have been noted on the initial incident report, that I can find.
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf

So we're looking at a possible weight difference of at least 40 or 50 pounds at the time of the incident.

FWIW at 5'8, 185 pounds, Zimmerman is overweight and pretty close to being obese...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/diet.fitness/02/12/tool.calculator.bmi/index.html

 

[suzihawk]

Wow, was just looking through some old transcripts, etc. from previous interviews and came across something very interesting in regards to who might have taken the photograph of the "injuries" on the back of Zimmerman's head. Tell me what you guys think (keep in mind that this is coming from Joe Oliver who we all know has been completely discredited as to his relationship with Zimmerman).

GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.

But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?

HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.

GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --

HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.

GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?



~jmo~

Hmmm. Very interesting. And good sleuthing! :thumb:

And I ask... how would he know that? Didn't he admit that he hadn't even spoken to GZ at the time of this interview? He wasn't at the crime scene to my knowledge.

 

[Inabsentia]

Totally idle speculation, but I wonder if the weight loss, and increased buffness, combined with his rapidly reaching the end of his schooling at Seminole College all represented an approaching attempt to gain admittance to the police academy.

Leads me to question whether that Could account for the additional zeal with which he pursued Trayvon Martin that night. Did he have more to prove than usual? Moo

 

[Sensei]

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?

IMO and ONLY MO that picture does not look like an injury that would be caused by someone having their head repeatedly hit against concrete. There is not enough blood splattered...imagine having a bleeding wound and then smacking the bleeding area against something hard, that blood is going to flaten out and splatter all over...there would be dirt and anything else that was on the sidewalk stuck in the bloody flatened out mess that was made by hitting repeatedly.

It's not the best photo that I have seen and is largly distinguised by the things that I do NOT see that lead me to believe that if this is in fact a photo of George Zimmerman taken on the night in question, that injury did not happen the way he has claimed it happened.

To address the posted quotation, I made a phone call and sent an email and the answer that I recieved was that any person who was detained by police with those types of injuries (setting aside that here that person would be taken to the ER) and the police did not take a lot of good 8X10 glossies and describe and measure and collect numerous medical reports about the injuries would be lucky to only find themselves on unpaid suspension pending further discipline and retraining. They would most likely find themselves looking for a new job. IMO JMHO and stuff.

 

[Adrienne37]

Hmmm. Very interesting. And good sleuthing! :thumb:

And I ask... how would he know that? Didn't he admit that he hadn't even spoken to GZ at the time of this interview? He wasn't at the crime scene to my knowledge.

This program was all the way back on March 27th when Oliver was still representing himself as Zimmerman's friend.

~jmo~

 

[HiHater]

Wow, was just looking through some old transcripts, etc. from previous interviews and came across something very interesting in regards to who might have taken the photograph of the "injuries" on the back of Zimmerman's head. Tell me what you guys think (keep in mind that this is coming from Joe Oliver who we all know has been completely discredited as to his relationship with Zimmerman).

GRACE: OK, to you, Steve Helling, I want to clear something up and you may know the answer. You`re on the scene. I want to clear up Zimmerman`s medical treatment because yesterday -- last night I thought they took -- police took him straight to a police interrogation room. I now understand he got some medical treatment from a fire person at the scene, then they took him to interrogation.

But what do we know? Did he really break his nose? Did he really have a gash on his head that need stitches?

HELLING: Well, you know, obviously that`s what we`ve heard. I haven`t seen any medical reports to back that up.

GRACE: All right. OK, Joe Oliver --

HELLING: But you know, that`s what he`s saying.

GRACE: Let`s see Joe Oliver and Steve Helling. What about it, Joe? What can you tell me about his injuries?

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.

GRACE: OK, that`s going to go a long way if that really exists.

If this is true, then why in the heck was a police officer on the scene taking photographs of Zimmerman's injuries with an I-phone and not following the standard operating procedure?



~jmo~

Great find! I knew that picture had to have been taken by LE. Now to answer, why? And why was GZ on a cell phone and not in handcuffs?

Jmo

 

[Adrienne37]

Hmmm. Very interesting. And good sleuthing! :thumb:

And I ask... how would he know that? Didn't he admit that he hadn't even spoken to GZ at the time of this interview? He wasn't at the crime scene to my knowledge.

Continuation Suzi....

JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: I`ve not heard the first two versions before.

GRACE: OK. Well, you`ve been with him. You`ve heard the versions. At this juncture, what is his version? And I`m not saying there were different versions before. I just want to get his story.

You`re his friend. Tell me his story. I don`t want to hear it from a reporter. I don`t want to hear it from reading something. I want to hear it from you. You`re his friend. Go ahead. What happened?

OLIVER: His version of the story is what was published yesterday by "The Orlando Sentinel." And Nancy, I think you`ll agree that part of the problems of this story is not only the Sanford police investigation but how the story has been covered from the very beginning, with the stories that George Zimmerman is white. He is not white. He`s a Latino male. And it`s just snowballed from there. At the beginning of your story...

 

[Adrienne37]

If this case wasn't so damn sad in that a beautiful kid was gunned down in cold blood, it would be hilarious with all these screw ups. Zimmerman's friends and family are going to be his downfall with all their stories.

Oliver states the photo was taken by LE on an I-phone, Taaffe states the photo was taken by one of the neighbors which he knows.


~jmo~