1996

[Holdontoyourhat]

P.S. When I first posted in this thread, it was to research the events of 1996 -- you know, the topic. So, why don't we get back to that?

Oh, sure.

But first I would like some CRITERIA. Otherwise, the onslaught of wildcard explanations will devour anything we find.

Let me explain. If we agree beforehand what news or what type of news would be potentially linked to this crime, then the news items we find will have to be accepted as potentially linked. If we have no agreement beforehand, any news on any front can be arbitrarily dismissed out-of-hand as unrelated.

IOW what are you going to accept as a potentially linked story. SD had said something like 'a terrorist group known to be attacking young girls' which was understandably coy. Whereas I would accept many more news events, at least to review them.

 

[BBB167893]

RDI has no explanation for the fact that the RN is somewhat riddled with socialist ideologies.

I might, but you wouldn't like it!

 

[BBB167893]

But Patsy was well known to use acronyms in her correspondence, and she put periods in between the letters, a style that wasn't really done any more, but could have been something she learned studying journalism in college.

And that's something that IDI has never been able to account for. But they'll have to, at some point anyway.

 

[MurriFlower]

Originally Posted by DeeDee249 But Patsy was well known to use acronyms in her correspondence, and she put periods in between the letters, a style that wasn't really done any more, but could have been something she learned studying journalism in college.

And that's something that IDI has never been able to account for. But they'll have to, at some point anyway.

It was answered perfectly by DD. PR was 'well known' for doing it. So much so that LHP commented on it also. So anyone who was familiar with her and her writing knew it. I'm not now, nor have I ever suggested, that the person who wrote the RN was just some Joe Blow who hopped in the basement window looking for a kiddie to murder. I am now starting to believe that the RN may have been deliberately written in the 'style' of PR's writing and it may also have been 'dictated' to the RN writer just for the very reason that the 'mastermind' of this fiasco knew that she would be under suspicion and her handwriting compared. So we have a minimum of two people, perhaps three. Mastermind, Igor and the RN writer (assuming this wasn't Igor).

 

[MurriFlower]

My interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around so dont think that killing [more fat cats] will be difficult."

I believe this interpretation is right because the RN author is identifying JR by means of a derrogatory term and then pointing out JR's not the only one. The RN author pluralized fat cats "not the only" and then used a plural form of kill "killing".

Your interpretation:

"you're not the only fat cat around [, I'm a fat cat too,] so don't think that killing [your daughter] will be difficult."

Equivalent expression: I find killing to be easy because, like you, I am a fat cat.

I believe this interpretation is wrong because there's nothing about being a fat cat that makes killing any more or less 'difficult.' Further, why would the RN author refer to himself using a derrogatory term?

Effectiveness of the RN:

Its absurd, illogical to tag the RN as bogus, staging within staging, a pack of lies, etc. without first knowing what its purpose was, and whether or not its purpose was met. Its like someone removes the garrote from the deep furrow around JBR's neck, right next to the petechial hemorrhages, and points out that the knots are amateurish and the whole thing is a prop. How stupid is that? How stupid do you think we are to believe that?

I don't think that the term 'fat cat' is used in a derogatory fashion, more mockingly. I believe it's possible this person knew that JR was a member of the self styled 'Atlanta Fat Cats'. This seemed to be a name they used to indicate how rich and important they were. Kind of like a club of guys who were up themselves. So maybe they are the other fat cats. Perhaps the killing has something to do with this group? JR did supposedly meet with them after JBR's funeral.

Perhaps this person found out about the Atlanta Fat Cats when they were present and it was discussed? Perhaps this person went to Atlanta with the family?

Going off on a tangent slightly, when I first read the RN I was thinking of the killing of fat cats quite literally - that is some people hate cats and get their kicks torturing them. I was thinking about the stun gun, the tape and the cord as well as the animal hairs found on JBR. Read somewhere that you can knock out a cat with a stun gun and then skin it (or do something even more disgusting) and laugh your guts out when it wakes up!! It is apparently well known that murders frequently start out by torturing and killing animals.

 

[MurriFlower]

Observations are more timeless than opinions. I have to check out your elevated palm idea....

Ok, well more observations then:

all the y letters have straight tails, some with a slight kick to the right at the end.

all the g letters have round tails and curve to the left.

almost all the straight letters curve to the right, like (

curious switch from 'we, us and our' at the beginning, to the instructions (which are all 'my and I') and then back again to 'us we and our'.

"I , my" used 4 times

"we us our" used 12 times

but

"You" used 22 times

"Your(s)" used 10 times

Weird really that they were so fixated on what 'you' should do, with very little emphasis on 'we us and our' and 'my and I' are used even more sparingly.

Perhaps they should have concentrated more on their own role in this rather than JR's as it appears they made a big mistake. I can't see that they achieved any goals in 'executing' JBR. So, was it an error, 'Igor' got out of control? Or did it not matter to them that she died? Was the purpose to warn off the 'fat cats' that we have power and aren't afraid of killing and we can get you right where it hurts, so it made no difference if she lived or died? No sense killing her without letting JR and the others know who and why, therefore the RN. Perhaps the goal was achieved after all. The fat cats got the message and backed off?

Wording is also curious, as we've already discussed. Why not "we respect your business but not your country". Why "the country it serves"? That's what makes me think they are not referring to USA. If we put the garrotte, execution and beheading together could the country be something of Spanish origin, perhaps South American? Did Access Graphics have dealings there?

Standing a 99% chance of killing her if the instructions aren't followed and 100% chance of getting her back if they are. Isn't that a strange thing to write? So that means you only have a 1% chance of getting her if you defy us. Did he think that was worth the risk? Didn't matter anyway, she was already dead - 100% dead in fact, so why bother to threaten?

Unless..... maybe she didn't die until after the call to the cops??? That was 6.30am and she wasn't found till 1.30pm. Could she have still been alive then? Could this be the reason FW didn't see her when he searched the basement?

 

[Sophie]

Ultimately, IDI tend to under-estimate Patsy - she had been a stellar student at college, had won pageants (and specfic talent-related prizes), had a genuine gift for extemporised writing and a well-documented dramatic streak. John had been a naval man. He was in a newish, successful business which had links with the government and US defence. He enjoyed crime literature. Both were known to use expressions in daily life that were used in the RN. They were actually a fairly formidable pair by anybody's standards and were not only capable of writing the RN but, in fact, you can see their pawprints all over it.

The language of the revolution in the note is risibly hyperbolic and melodramatic, the metaphor mixed and the motives numerous and opaque.

ETA; Hope you are all well and snuggly.

 

[BBB167893]

It was answered perfectly by DD. PR was 'well known' for doing it. So much so that LHP commented on it also. So anyone who was familiar with her and her writing knew it. I'm not now, nor have I ever suggested, that the person who wrote the RN was just some Joe Blow who hopped in the basement window looking for a kiddie to murder. I am now starting to believe that the RN may have been deliberately written in the 'style' of PR's writing and it may also have been 'dictated' to the RN writer just for the very reason that the 'mastermind' of this fiasco knew that she would be under suspicion and her handwriting compared. So we have a minimum of two people, perhaps three. Mastermind, Igor and the RN writer (assuming this wasn't Igor).

I could get my head around that. There's still that Occam problem, though.

 

[BBB167893]

Ultimately, IDI tend to under-estimate Patsy - she had been a stellar student at college, had won pageants (and specfic talent-related prizes), had a genuine gift for extemporised writing and a well-documented dramatic streak.

Steven Pitt said the same thing, calling her "more than a match for her interrogators."

John had been a naval man. He was in a newish, successful business which had links with the government and US defence. He enjoyed crime literature. Both were known to use expressions in daily life that were used in the RN. They were actually a fairly formidable pair by anybody's standards and were not only capable of writing the RN but, in fact, you can see their pawprints all over it.

The language of the revolution in the note is risibly hyperbolic and melodramatic, the metaphor mixed and the motives numerous and opaque.

Terrific.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Perhaps they should have concentrated more on their own role in this rather than JR's as it appears they made a big mistake. I can't see that they achieved any goals in 'executing' JBR. So, was it an error, 'Igor' got out of control? Or did it not matter to them that she died? Was the purpose to warn off the 'fat cats' that we have power and aren't afraid of killing and we can get you right where it hurts, so it made no difference if she lived or died? No sense killing her without letting JR and the others know who and why, therefore the RN. Perhaps the goal was achieved after all. The fat cats got the message and backed off?

Kilroy was here. Somebody simply wanted it known that they were there and did this thing.

Had their way with a blue eyed blond haired American girl (although it has been pointed out to me that she really wasn't blue eyed or blond naturally).

Possible goals achieved that we don't know about include photos, tapes, videos which obviously raise the possibility of some latent problems.


The New York Times indicated this as the origin in 1946, based on the results of a contest conducted by the American Transit Association to establish the origin of the phenomenon. The article noted that Kilroy had marked the ships themselves as they were being built—so, at a later date, the phrase would be found chalked in places that no graffiti-artist could have reached (inside sealed hull spaces, for example), which then fed the mythical significance of the phrase—after all, if Kilroy could leave his mark there, who knew where else he could go?[4] Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable notes this as a possible origin, but suggests that "the phrase grew by accident."[1]

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Wording is also curious, as we've already discussed. Why not "we respect your business but not your country". Why "the country it serves"? That's what makes me think they are not referring to USA. If we put the garrotte, execution and beheading together could the country be something of Spanish origin, perhaps South American? Did Access Graphics have dealings there?

I believe here you'll find that beheading as a form of execution is certainly not exclusive to the middle east or terrorists, but in fact have its roots mostly elsewhere including Europe and Asia. Its worth noting that the RN author inexplicably refers to BOTH beheading AND execution.

Beheading typically refers to the act of intentional decapitation, e.g., as a means of murder or execution

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitation"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapitation[/ame]

 

[DeeDee249]

JB was not alive at 6 AM. The stage of rigor mortis she was in took about 12 hours to form, livor mortis was fixed, and contents of her digestive tract place the time of death between 11 PM and 1 AM. There is some leeway, but not that much. While both IDI and RDI try to make things "fit" their theories, scientific facts can't be bent to fit. It's been shown that pineapple would take about 2 hours to reach the place where it was found. I doubt she'd have had it a 4 AM, especially if fed by an intruder, as Patsy was up and about about an hour or so later. Not much time (90 minutes) to do all that was done between eating the pineapple and Patsy walking around the house.
Not to mention that LE arrived within minutes of the 911 call. So even less likely all that could have occurred between the phone call and the arrival of Officer French about 10 minutes later.

 

[MurriFlower]

JB was not alive at 6 AM. The stage of rigor mortis she was in took about 12 hours to form, livor mortis was fixed, and contents of her digestive tract place the time of death between 11 PM and 1 AM. There is some leeway, but not that much. While both IDI and RDI try to make things "fit" their theories, scientific facts can't be bent to fit. It's been shown that pineapple would take about 2 hours to reach the place where it was found. I doubt she'd have had it a 4 AM, especially if fed by an intruder, as Patsy was up and about about an hour or so later. Not much time (90 minutes) to do all that was done between eating the pineapple and Patsy walking around the house.
Not to mention that LE arrived within minutes of the 911 call. So even less likely all that could have occurred between the phone call and the arrival of Officer French about 10 minutes later.

I have to say I just threw that in as a bit of a 'wild card'.

I'm not very up with the 'stages of rigor mortis'. Only I do know from what I have read that it is very variable, depending on a whole host of factors and thus the reason time of death can't usually be pinpointed quite so accurately. So, I'm thinking part of the reason for the ME's estimate of time of death was that it was supposedly between 10pm and 6.30am, however JBR was last seen alive at 10pm and found dead at 1.30pm the following day so that's an extra 7 hours that is unaccounted for and theoretically she 'could' still have been alive.

At some stage she ate pineapple that was not part her meal on the previous evening (apparently).

"Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures."

Naturally neither of us have the information required to tell if the estimated time of death was correct.

Time of digestion of pineapple has been suggested by SD as 2.25hrs and by another source I found as 20 to 30 minutes. So again we have quite a variation.

So hows about the idea that she might not have been killed until PR made that phone call at 6.30am?? It doesn't fit with the time of death estimated by the ME, but it's well within the range of the onset of rigor mortis. This would mean she needed to have been either secreted in the house (crawl space??) or was taken (and probably killed) elsewhere and returned to the house. I think there was a period of hours where LA was the only Cop there and everyone else was upstairs waiting for the phone call supposed to be made between 8 and 10am, so there was opportunity. The only indicator or where she died was a 'wet' patch of urine on the floor (unless I'm mistaken), which could have occurred when she was taken down there earlier.

It's not something I've thought about before but although it might be unlikely, it is possible.

 

[DeeDee249]

I have to say I just threw that in as a bit of a 'wild card'.

I'm not very up with the 'stages of rigor mortis'. Only I do know from what I have read that it is very variable, depending on a whole host of factors and thus the reason time of death can't usually be pinpointed quite so accurately. So, I'm thinking part of the reason for the ME's estimate of time of death was that it was supposedly between 10pm and 6.30am, however JBR was last seen alive at 10pm and found dead at 1.30pm the following day so that's an extra 7 hours that is unaccounted for and theoretically she 'could' still have been alive.

At some stage she ate pineapple that was not part her meal on the previous evening (apparently).

"Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures."

Naturally neither of us have the information required to tell if the estimated time of death was correct.

Time of digestion of pineapple has been suggested by SD as 2.25hrs and by another source I found as 20 to 30 minutes. So again we have quite a variation.

So hows about the idea that she might not have been killed until PR made that phone call at 6.30am?? It doesn't fit with the time of death estimated by the ME, but it's well within the range of the onset of rigor mortis. This would mean she needed to have been either secreted in the house (crawl space??) or was taken (and probably killed) elsewhere and returned to the house. I think there was a period of hours where LA was the only Cop there and everyone else was upstairs waiting for the phone call supposed to be made between 8 and 10am, so there was opportunity. The only indicator or where she died was a 'wet' patch of urine on the floor (unless I'm mistaken), which could have occurred when she was taken down there earlier.

It's not something I've thought about before but although it might be unlikely, it is possible.

Rigor mortis is variable, but still predictable. It is the ambient temperature that has the most effect on it, followed by minor variables like whether the person had a fever at the time of death. But that is very minor, as human body temperatures vary by a spread of 15 degrees or so (from a low of 92 to extreme highs of 106, 107).
Though it was winter, she was found indoors (the fact that is was a basement is negligible- it was still considered "room temperature". JR also said that they often left a vent window open down there because the basement was too warm.
In room temperatures, a body takes 12 hours to reach full rigor mortis. JB was in full rigor when found. The body then remains in full rigor for 12 hours, and then takes 12 hours to dissipate (known as passing off) in the order in which it began. Small joints first- jaw, shoulder, elbow, wrist, ankle. Then the larger joints of knees and hips.
When coroner Mayer does the autopsy, her rigor was already passing off (he noted mild in the arms and moderate in the legs). By that time- 8 AM Dec. 27- it was about 32 hours (from approx. midnight Dec. 25). It was exactly the right stage for a death that occurred at that time.

 

[MurriFlower]

Could an event that occurred in 1996 be involved in this crime?

What if it was not the beginning of something, but rather the end of something?