2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[cajun]

I can't figure out what this statement is saying. The Deputy that blew off Kronk is telling the defense that they can plea bargain? This came from the Baez deposition of Cain?

I heard that as a teaser for the upcoming segment on Casey.I didn't watch his show so I don't know what exactly was said about it..I just can't watch Geraldo anymore.

 

[marla]

Hotdogs, are still thinking Baden said, cloroform 'n hair OR cloroform and hair?

 

[SeekingJana]

I think this is true.




If you back up a page or so, I posted a link to a motion asking for hair (from vehicle) to test. I want to know if the defense was ever actually given any hair for testing.

Thank you. This thread has moved so fast that I missed your post regarding the motion being filed. I'm sorry.

 

[Lanie]

He very clearly says Yeah, where they found chloroform in her hair...

I don't know how that could be interpreted except exactly as it is...

Considering his wifey is on the defense team, there could be some info that they have seen or heard of that we have not-OR it is possible when the defense did their autopsy and testing of the remains THEY found chloroform so they KNOW it was there?

LOL! I was really going to try to keep out of this conversation, but I couldn't pass this up...
Bolded by me.
The same way the report from the lab says very clearly unusually high levels of chloroform were found in the trunk can be interpreted as insignificant levels of chloroform were found due to cleaning products and/or decomposition.

My question is why is chloroform considered so difficult to make or obtain to drug a kid when there are so many other things readily available that would accomplish the same purpose, yet it isn't too difficult to make or obtain to clean with, when there are so many other things readily available that would accomplish the same purpose? I personally have heard, read about, and seen movies where chloroform was used to knock people out, either medicinally or crime-related, but until this case, I had never heard of chloroform being used as a cleaner. I've also asked several people who have some kind of heavy-duty cleaning in their line of business, and they haven't heard of it either, which leads me to believe this isn't a common knowledge kind of thing.
Lanie

 

[Hot Dogs]

Hotdogs, are still thinking Baden said, cloroform 'n hair OR cloroform and hair?

I haven't changed my mind from earlier today, because the three options (in, 'n, and) sound so similar. But that is still besides the point.

The question is: Is it a fact that chloroform was found to be present within or on, any Caylee hair(s)?

 

[Lanie]

I think this is true.




If you back up a page or so, I posted a link to a motion asking for hair (from vehicle) to test. I want to know if the defense was ever actually given any hair for testing.

In the docs released regarding the finding of the remains, it described how the skull and hair were found. The person filing the report said the skull was upright and facing a direction, some hair was still attached to the skull and on the tape that was in the mouth area, and there was hair on the ground all around the skull. Going by memory, so don't have a link, but it is right at the beginning of these docs discussing the remains. This hair would be considered part of the remains, it was a lot of hair, not just a strand or two. While I don't have documentation stating specifically the bones and hair were turned over to the defense, the defense did a second autopsy which wasn't really an autopsy since it was skeletal remains. There were also teeth found not attached to the skull, and like the hair, I am guessing those would be considered part of the remains as well. So, going by all that, I am willing to bet the defense did have plenty of hair turned over to them along with bones after the state was done with their examination.
I also believe we are not privy to every bit of discovery given to the defense. It's like the pictures of the remains, those are not going to be handed over to the press, and it seems some of the other stuff is not, as well. We know by what has been released there was a lot of communicatiton between Casey and TonE the night of June 15th and early morning June 16th we haven't seen, and we probably won't until trial. I am also willing to bet if that stuff has not been handed over to the defense by now, we would be hearing motion after motion to have it turned over.
JMO
Lanie

 

[cyberborg]

WRT the discussion of KC's alleged used of chloroform, I was just wondering if KC might have used it to knock Caylee out quickly and then the Xanax or Benadryl would keep her out?

IIRC there was a text(s) from KC talking about Caylee wasn't asleep yet, maybe KC's discovery of chloroform was, being an impatient party girl -- she could drug Caylee and then knock her out with chloroform and go party, leaving the drug to keep her out.

Just a thought but nothing surprises me in this case anymore.

 

[RR0004]

The thing that really ticks me off about this "coincedence" is the fact that the "cloroform" searches where done on tha A's home computer, NOT KC"S personal laptop. RM got inside the A's home and did computer searchers to FRAME her? Me thinks not...

IIRC...the laptop belonged to Cindy...I thought Casey was kind enough to relieve her of it.

 

[RR0004]

In the docs released regarding the finding of the remains, it described how the skull and hair were found. The person filing the report said the skull was upright and facing a direction, some hair was still attached to the skull and on the tape that was in the mouth area, and there was hair on the ground all around the skull. Going by memory, so don't have a link, but it is right at the beginning of these docs discussing the remains. This hair would be considered part of the remains, it was a lot of hair, not just a strand or two. While I don't have documentation stating specifically the bones and hair were turned over to the defense, the defense did a second autopsy which wasn't really an autopsy since it was skeletal remains. There were also teeth found not attached to the skull, and like the hair, I am guessing those would be considered part of the remains as well. So, going by all that, I am willing to bet the defense did have plenty of hair turned over to them along with bones after the state was done with their examination.
I also believe we are not privy to every bit of discovery given to the defense. It's like the pictures of the remains, those are not going to be handed over to the press, and it seems some of the other stuff is not, as well. We know by what has been released there was a lot of communicatiton between Casey and TonE the night of June 15th and early morning June 16th we haven't seen, and we probably won't until trial. I am also willing to bet if that stuff has not been handed over to the defense by now, we would be hearing motion after motion to have it turned over.
JMO
Lanie

Curious, would a fingernail still be present on a finger if a finger was indeed part of the skeletal remains? (Sorry if too graphic) Could a fingernail be tested for drugs?

 

[RR0004]

WRT the discussion of KC's alleged used of chloroform, I was just wondering if KC might have used it to knock Caylee out quickly and then the Xanax or Benadryl would keep her out?

IIRC there was a text(s) from KC talking about Caylee wasn't asleep yet, maybe KC's discovery of chloroform was, being an impatient party girl -- she could drug Caylee and then knock her out with chloroform and go party, leaving the drug to keep her out.

Just a thought but nothing surprises me in this case anymore.

I'm still wondering though if Casey's searches for chloroform coincided with perhaps her finding the picture on RM's computer. Perhaps, it picqued her curiosity enough to search for more info.

 

[cyberborg]

I'm still wondering though if Casey's searches for chloroform coincided with perhaps her finding the picture on RM's computer. Perhaps, it picgued her curiosity enough to search for more info.

I think so, although I do believe KC didn't so much 'plan' anything per se but more fantasized and those fantasies became stronger and then sometimes you cannot tell one from the other.

 

[Hot Dogs]

While I don't have documentation stating specifically the bones and hair were turned over to the defense, the defense did a second autopsy which wasn't really an autopsy since it was skeletal remains. There were also teeth found not attached to the skull, and like the hair, I am guessing those would be considered part of the remains as well. So, going by all that, I am willing to bet the defense did have plenty of hair turned over to them along with bones after the state was done with their examination.

I posted information about the "second autopsy" earlier in this thread. It was done just before Jan. 8th at the funeral home. Dr. Spitz went in and out quickly. Presumably, he was allowed to inspect the remains that were there for burial or cremation. I seriously doubt that he was allowed to grab something to take away for testing.

On Jan. 8th, the defense presented a motion in court seeking hair (from car) for testing. The State had not given them any hair (from car) prior to Jan. 8th. I posted a link to that motion a few pages back.

I also believe we are not privy to every bit of discovery given to the defense. It's like the pictures of the remains, those are not going to be handed over to the press, and it seems some of the other stuff is not, as well.

It is my understanding that all discovery given to the defense is what is in the doc dumps. The only things we don't see are those excluded from the Sunshine Law. I think an OCSO document stating that hair was sent to the defense (just like the docs stating hair sent to FBI) would show up in a doc dump and not be withheld because of the Sunshine Law.

 

[PattyCake]

I'm not sure what your point is here. I'm begging anyone to provide evidence that the State has given any hairs (from vehicle or body) to the defense for testing.

I don't know what you mean?!

The State gave the ENTIRE BODY to the defense including a lot of hair remaining on the body. The defense can do their own testing with the evidence they collected. Contrary to your posts, the defense did not just INSPECT the body.

Drug use will show throughout every strand of hair, not a few select. They were within their legal rights to retrieve as much as possible for the defense. That would include their own strands of hair from Caylee's remains.

 

[PattyCake]

Tidbits of TV interview re: autopsy:

Q: Dr. Spitz, when you are performing an autopsy on skeletonized remains, do you actually, with the bare hand, feel the bones to determine if there are any nicks, scrapes, cuts, knife wounds and bullet wounds and breakages to the bones?

SPITZ: You`re going to -- you`re going to do a very detailed exam. And.

SPITZ: Well, that it entails a naked eye exam of all of the bones. You`re going to want to x-ray all the bones. You`re going to want to photograph the bones. You want to -- going to want to recreate the skeleton to see what, if any, bones are missing so that you know if you have a complete skeleton or whether some bones are no longer present, look for evidence .


Sounds like a very long autopsy took place, not a simple inspection.

 

[Hot Dogs]

The State gave the ENTIRE BODY to the defense including a lot of hair remaining on the body. The defense can do their own testing with the evidence they collected. Contrary to your posts, the defense did not just INSPECT the body.

I'm going to respectfully ask for proof that the defense had physical possession of Caylee's remains. I did a bunch of forum sleuthing this morning and came up with info on their autopsy. It was done quickly at the funeral home by Dr. Spitz. The remains were inside the funeral home when he did his autopsy examination. They were not at a lab of their (defense) choice.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Sounds like a very long autopsy took place, not a simple inspection.

Please provide a date (or link) for that TV interview with Spitz. It sounds like he is talking about the "ideal" autopsy situation. What I uncovered seems to show that he didn't get his wishes for that.

 

[amethyst221]

LOL! I was really going to try to keep out of this conversation, but I couldn't pass this up...
Bolded by me.
The same way the report from the lab says very clearly unusually high levels of chloroform were found in the trunk can be interpreted as insignificant levels of chloroform were found due to cleaning products and/or decomposition.

My question is why is chloroform considered so difficult to make or obtain to drug a kid when there are so many other things readily available that would accomplish the same purpose, yet it isn't too difficult to make or obtain to clean with, when there are so many other things readily available that would accomplish the same purpose? I personally have heard, read about, and seen movies where chloroform was used to knock people out, either medicinally or crime-related, but until this case, I had never heard of chloroform being used as a cleaner. I've also asked several people who have some kind of heavy-duty cleaning in their line of business, and they haven't heard of it either, which leads me to believe this isn't a common knowledge kind of thing.
Lanie

Lanie,

I can just speak for myself, but I don't disagree. I remember the first night there was any mention of chloroform, and doing some research. I'd only ever heard about using chloroform as an anesthetic in the past (nurse constantly dripping the liquid on a cloth to keep the patient out) or as a crime-story kidnapping tool (the quick cloth over the mouth to knock out the victim). I only think it would be hard to keep a child or anyone alive and able to recover but successfully sedated with chloroform, homemade or bought. I also never thought of using it AS a cleaner, but more that it was possibly created from the use of certain cleaners that have the required ingredient and a chemical reaction. I still am never sure what I even think the significance of the chloroform is.

 

[cyberborg]

I'm going to respectfully ask for proof that the defense had physical possession of Caylee's remains. I did a bunch of forum sleuthing this morning and came up with info on their autopsy. It was done quickly at the funeral home by Dr. Spitz. The remains were inside the funeral home when he did his autopsy examination. They were not at a lab of their (defense) choice.

I don't know but from what I heard this was another Defense bluster incident, they made a lot of noise, said a lot of things but -- when they got access did little. I think it was an in/out although samples could have been processed elsewhere.

IIRC the Defense seemed more focused on wanting the prosecution results, both to save them doing the work but also the focus was more to poke holes in the prosecution methods/tests.

There is a strange thing with money once again that while there is an expensive high powered defense team there seemed to be no lab available for the defense to use and they didn't want to 'spend' -- no cash? only the promise of it? The experts were there when the remains were not available and then when they were available the experts weren't -- other than a quick viewing?

So .... I tend to think that no real autopsy or testing was done by the Defense, the same way they blustered about access to the crime scene but then never bothered till weeks later and, because HL did not get access to the bag in the hours he was there .... it is too expensive for him to return.

 

[cajun]

I'm going to respectfully ask for proof that the defense had physical possession of Caylee's remains. I did a bunch of forum sleuthing this morning and came up with info on their autopsy. It was done quickly at the funeral home by Dr. Spitz. The remains were inside the funeral home when he did his autopsy examination. They were not at a lab of their (defense) choice.

Baez himself said he had custody of remains of Caylee in one of the court hearings. I believe that was in Dec. or Jan.

 

[cyberborg]

Baez himself said he had custody of remains of Caylee in one of the court hearings. I believe that was in Dec. or Jan.

JB had custody but IIRC they were held in the funeral home and viewed at the funeral home, because the Defense didn't have access to a 'free' lab.

Not 100% sure since they were secretly cremated at some point and things were kept VERY quiet around that time -- so who knows?