2009.03.14 Geraldo - Dr. Baden, Slip or Not on Chloroform In Caylee's hair test?

[Theonly1]

I was just going to post exactly this! I would suggest that someone led SA know about this show. I'm sure they would be VERY interested in these remarks!
:doh:

Assuming the SA has not held back any "chloroform in hair reports" from the Sunshine dumps (which is possible), if Baden knows about chloroform in Caylee's hair then could it be because the defense tested the hair and found it there?

What a major duhhhhhhhhhhhhh on Baden's part if the defnese found chloroform in the hair and then Baden aired that fact on national television.

 

[Theonly1]

If Dr. Baden does have information that chloroform was found in or on hair, then it did come from an OCSO/FBI leak. That information is nowhere in any of the doc dumps. The doc dumps are what the prosecution gives to the defense as discovery. Unless there was a leak, the defense does not know more about the forensics than we do.

Talking heads have said a variety of things like KC's prints were found on the duct tape, the toy horse matches one(s) in the house, heart sticker matches, a knife with the body, etc.

The defense could have done their own testing...

 

[SoSueMe]

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/4875100/Casey-Anthony-Annie-Downing-supplemental-report

Kenosha, I found what you're referring to at the bottom of page two of the link above. Sounds to me like word had already hit the street, Nancy Grace, etc about high levels of chloroform in KC's trunk. Annie asked her about that and KC said she kept cleaning fluid in the trunk.. no further explanation.

[Bolded by me]

As if that is a reasonable explanation. Oh yeah, I guess we all keep cleaning fluid in the trunk.

I don't know what to think of Baden's slip. I definately think he said "in the hair" because that's the only thing that makes sense within the context of that conversation. Maybe MikeG or JaneVM on Headline News will have something on it soon.

 

[angeleleven]

I heard it plain and clear when I watch Geraldo last night. I'm so glad a thread is open for this. I hope Nancy Grace will also have something on her show tonight concerning this.

 

[LCoastMom]

I sent the link to Eyes for Lies to see if she thinks Baden was speaking hypothetically or if he truly slipped up.

I feel sure he realized what he said when it was too late to take it back. He did what any good expert would have done...keep talking and act like it was nothing important, IMO.

Susan

I agree, I didn't see him skip a beat. If it was a slip he handled it well. The SA could use him more often over hot button items right after the the defense demands no more leaks!

 

[Theonly1]

From Florida's Rule of Criminal Procedure 3.220 Discovery:

[snipped]

(d) Defendant’s Obligation.

(1) If a defendant elects to participate in discovery, either through filing the appropriate
notice or by participating in any discovery process, including the taking of a discovery deposition, the following disclosures shall be made:

(A) Within 15 days after receipt by the defendant of the Discovery Exhibit furnished
by the prosecutor pursuant to subdivision (b)(1)(A) of this rule, the defendant shall furnish to the prosecutor a written list of the names and addresses of all witnesses whom the defendant expects to call as witnesses at the trial or hearing. When the prosecutor subpoenas a witness whose name has been furnished by the defendant, except for trial subpoenas, the rules applicable to the taking of depositions shall apply.

(B) Within 15 days after receipt of the prosecutor’s Discovery Exhibit the defendant
shall serve a written Discovery Exhibit which shall disclose to and permit the prosecutor to inspect, copy, test, and photograph the following information and material that is in the defendant’s possession or control:

(i) the statement of any person listed in subdivision (d)(1)(A),
other than that of the defendant;

(ii) reports or statements of experts made in connection with the particular case, including results of physical or mental examinations and of scientific tests, experiments, or comparisons; and

(iii) any tangible papers or objects that the defendant intends to use in the
hearing or trial.

(2) The prosecutor and the defendant shall perform their obligations under this rule in a
manner mutually agreeable or as ordered by the court.

(3) The filing of a motion for protective order by the prosecutor will automatically stay the times provided for in this subdivision. If a protective order is granted, the defendant may, within 2 days thereafter, or at any time before the prosecutor furnishes the information or material that is the subject of the motion for protective order, withdraw the defendant’s notice of discovery and not be required to furnish reciprocal discovery.

(e) Restricting Disclosure. The court on its own initiative or on motion of counsel shall deny or partially restrict disclosures authorized by this rule if it finds there is a substantial risk to any person of physical harm, intimidation, bribery, economic reprisals, or unnecessary annoyance or embarrassment resulting from the disclosure, that outweighs any usefulness of the disclosure to either party.

(f) Additional Discovery. On a showing of materiality, the court may require such other discovery to the parties as justice may require.

(g) Matters Not Subject to Disclosure.
(1) Work Product. Disclosure shall not be required of legal research or of records, correspondence, reports, or memoranda to the extent that they contain the opinions, theories, or conclusions of the prosecuting or defense attorney or members of their legal staffs.
(2) Informants. Disclosure of a confidential informant shall not be required unless the confidential informant is to be produced at a hearing or trial or a failure to disclose the informant’s identity will infringe
the constitutional rights of the defendant.

---------

Was LKB (or her husband) ever listed as an "expert" on Baez's expert witness list?

Florida is a state that SHARES discovery so if the State is calling a witness and using a report then the defense gets it beforehand and vice versa. Florida is essentially a "no surprises" state. The "rub" lies in whether the defense is obligated to turn over anything in reciprocal discovery (like a defense-generated expert report that is unfavorable to the defendant). In my memory (which could be wrong), I recall that the defense usually will simply not call an expert who holds an opinion unfavorable to their client. So this is why I'm so fascinated with Mr. Baden's ramblings. Is he privy to a report that shows a Caylee hair laden with chloroform? Is it a non-released State generated report? Or is it a report generated by the defense for which the expert will simply not be called at trial?

 

[TGIRecovered]

Dr. Baden on Geraldo mentioning Cholorform in Caylee's Hair ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fZsd--Y2Hk

I've never heard of Eyes For Lies...interesting. Let us know what she says.

I received an e-mail reply from Eyes for Lies. She watched the clip and agrees Baden was speaking factually; not hypothetically, when referring to the chloroform in Caylee's hair follical testing.

Here is the link to her blog in case you want to check out her evaluations suspects, players etc. in other current and past cases in the news: Eyes for Lies

 

[RR0004]

No need for a correction that's what KC said.

The FBI reports would tear this apart. No one cleans with pure chloroform, if it were in a cleaning formula it would have other elements mixed in it too.

Just carrying chloroform is against the law for private use, it was out lawed before KC was born! So she just happened to have an illegal substance that has not been legally available in over 20 years in the back of her car along with her baby's decomposing body.

Yeah, not buying it and I think it was wise of Annie to let the subject drop.

IIRC, chloroform can be released/found from/in cleaning fluids, but not sure anymore if my memory serves me correctly...it's been that long. I think she was setting it up as an explanation...not that she was actually carting it around. IMO it doesn't really matter, it's all bs.

 

[Theonly1]

Hypothetical Florida situation to help better understand Florida experts and reports:

Scenario 1:
Defense tests remains independently and also finds evidence of chloroform. Expert who conducts tests simply is not put on expert list and called to trial (defense knows then State's tests on chloroform likely are valid but this will not stop them from attacking testing at trial).

Scenario 2:
Defense tests remains independently and DOES NOT find evidence of chloroform. Expert is then put on the defense expert witness list, notes, tests, and reports are given to the State in reciprocal discovery and witness is then called to trial.

Get it?

The State, of course, has to turn over everything they have either inculpating or exculpating the defendant...

Where I'm going with this: Is it POSSIBLE that Mr. Baden is privy (via pillowtalk or via being an expert himself) to testing by the defense which may not have resulted in favorable results for the defendant? I don't think we'd EVER know about it as I don't think the defense is required to turn it over to the State.

 

[Jolynna]

Assuming the SA has not held back any "chloroform in hair reports" from the Sunshine dumps (which is possible), if Baden knows about chloroform in Caylee's hair then could it be because the defense tested the hair and found it there?

What a major duhhhhhhhhhhhhh on Baden's part if the defnese found chloroform in the hair and then Baden aired that fact on national television.

If there is chloroform in the hair the defense doesn't think that the state didn't find it.

The defense doesn't care if ANY scientific results come out. They are itching to get their hands on the state's evidence A.S.A.P. to see how much the state knows and whether or not every t was crossed and i dotted.

The more time defense experts have to analyze every word, discredit and plant doubt seeds the better for the defense.

The defense has been filing motion after motion and throwing hissy fits in front of the judge at hearings about state misconduct to force discovery release. The defense knows when they get discovery so does the public.

It is better for them if the worst comes out now and they have months to plan their counter-attack and sneakily do advance discrediting. .

Legal experts all over the world give a good portion of the credit to the success of O.J.'s criminal defense team to so much of the state's case being coming out in the preliminary hearing and through media leaks.

That is why the sheriff has come down so hard on the "loose lips".
JMO

 

[LCoastMom]

IIRC, chloroform can be released/found from/in cleaning fluids, but not sure anymore if my memory serves me correctly...it's been that long. I think she was setting it up as an explanation...not that she was actually carting it around. IMO it doesn't really matter, it's all bs.

According to the FBI this was pure chloroform.

I had a can of dry cleaning solution for my couch, it contained chloroform. It also contained several other chemicals so if I spilled it (or used it) an analyses would show chloroform and some form of alcohol and some stabilizers. The only reason I even knew it had chloroform was because of the big warning on the label only to use where well ventilated, not to mix it with other things. And some cancer warning! So I read the whole label. I doubt if I would have payed any attention when I was her age.

She can try to save her butt anyway she wants, I hope the jury isn't buying. I'm curious how many kids her age even know there is chloroform in cleaning solutions. Wouldn't most people her age just say 'what are you talking about?' I don't have chloroform in my car!!

 

[Theonly1]

The defense doesn't care if ANY scientific results come out. They are itching to get their hands on the state's evidence A.S.A.P.

Then their experts have more time to discredit it and plant doubt seeds.

That is why they have been filing motion after motion and throwing hissy fits in front of the judge at hearings about state misconduct. The defense knows when they get discovery so does the public.

It is better for them if the worst comes out now and they have months to plan their counter-attack and sneakily do advance discrediting. They don't the jurors are gasping in shock and glaring in horror at Casey during the trial.

JMO

And who better to "leak" it than a non-discoverable expert, right? If he's not on the defense's expert witness list (and of course he's not on the State's list either) how would he be called at trial? Answer: He would not be. The defense has every right to conduct their own testing and you only hear about the results when it is favorable to their client. Even if LKB leaked the info, well, she's Casey's counsel now and all her opinions would be "work product". Pfft.

 

[LCoastMom]

And who better to "leak" it than a non-discoverable expert, right? If he's not on the defense's expert witness list (and of course he's not on the State's list either) how would he be called at trial? Answer: He would not be. The defense has every right to conduct their own testing and you only hear about the results when it is favorable to their client. Even if LKB leaked the info, well, she's Casey's counsel now and all her opinions would be "work product". Pfft.

I have only been WSing a very short amount of time but I have been following cases of interest to me for years. I've never seen the amount of whining, and back and forth accusations 6+ months before the trial even started as we've been subjected to with this case. Let alone all the down right bizarro behaviors. Have I been lucky or is this case a 1 in a million all the way around?

 

[Marina2]

And who better to "leak" it than a non-discoverable expert, right? If he's not on the defense's expert witness list (and of course he's not on the State's list either) how would he be called at trial? Answer: He would not be. The defense has every right to conduct their own testing and you only hear about the results when it is favorable to their client. Even if LKB leaked the info, well, she's Casey's counsel now and all her opinions would be "work product". Pfft.

If they conducted a test of the hair, the defense is required to disclose this to the prosecution, aren't they? Where in the rules of discovery does it state that they only have to disclose favorable results to the prosecution? Is it something to do with freedom from self incrimination?

Under Florida's Rule of Criminal Procedure, defense obligation in discovery.
(snipped)
3.220 (d)(1)(B)(ii)
(ii) reports or statements of experts made in connection with the particular case, including results of physical or mental examinations and of scientific tests, experiments, or comparisons; and
(iii) any tangible papers or objects that the defendant intends to use in the hearing or trial.
It's my understanding that if samples were given to the defense to be tested, it will come out at trial. If tests were conducted by the defense but results of that test aren't submitted, it will come out as well. It would look bad to the defense to conduct a test but not submit the results.

 

[Jolynna]

And who better to "leak" it than a non-discoverable expert, right? If he's not on the defense's expert witness list (and of course he's not on the State's list either) how would he be called at trial? Answer: He would not be. The defense has every right to conduct their own testing and you only hear about the results when it is favorable to their client. Even if LKB leaked the info, well, she's Casey's counsel now and all her opinions would be "work product". Pfft.

I am not sure finding chloroform in Caylee's hair could be favorable to Casey.

But, I think Baden presented the idea over a month ago in a way that didn't make Casey sound like the deliberate murderer she is (IMO). Baden said lots of young mothers use chloroform as a babysitter and that he thought Casey gave Caylee an accidental overdose.

The sooner the scientific evidence is made known and is in the defense team's hands, the sooner the defense can nitpick every word.

It IS definitely better if the expert sanitizing Casey's dirty deed isn't one of Casey's lawyers or hired experts.

I see no reason for Baden to try to suggest a mother was guilty of horrifically shoving a chloroform soaked rag over her baby's face so she could go party, or even MENTIONING the chloroform again, UNLESS there is evidence Casey is guilty of doing something worse WITH chloroform.

IMO, you really have to be grabbing at straws if your unofficial spokesperson presenting the best possible light on your dirty deed can't make it sound nicer than a gag, a chloroform soaked rag and the sowing of wild oats.

JMO

 

[miabellamoure]

Not trying to be argumentative at all...

But, wouldn't the ME's report have indicated something regarding chloroform as likely COD if this information was truly available via forensics on the hair???

I understand "in" the hair would mean peri-mortem...so...a technicality?

I'm just sayin'...

Just curious about the ME's report...do we know if that report was a "final" which included "all" toxicology results?

The reason I ask was that the ME released preliminary report when my brother was found dead last year. Several months later and after all of the toxicology testing was back, a "final" report was issued.

Could be where the slip of Baden's tongue might come into play since he'd obviously be privy to info from LKB on the subject matter of final reports.

 

[miabellamoure]

But, I think Baden presented the idea over a month ago in a way that didn't make Casey sound like the deliberate murderer she is (IMO). Baden said lots of young mothers use chloroform as a babysitter and that he thought Casey gave Caylee an accidental overdose.

Before KC's case, had anyone EVER heard of "Chloroform" used as a babysitting agent?

Maybe, I'm old and there have just been much more advancements in the science & technology in the field of babysitting than I can imagine...scary if really true.

 

[chefmom]

Before KC's case, had anyone EVER heard of "Chloroform" used as a babysitting agent?

Maybe, I'm old and there have just been much more advancements in the science & technology in the field of babysitting than I can imagine...scary if really true.

ITA! I have never heard of such a thing! That doesn't mean it isn't true, but I feel it is completely irresponsible for someone of MB's training to make such a statement on a nationally televised program! I shudder to think of someone else hearing him state this and then thinking "Hey! What a great idea! Everyone's doing it! Why shouldn't I?"

 

[Chezhire]

No, that wouldn't be the case. Even if the chloroform was found to be present in her hair, there is no way for the ME to prove that it contributed to her death, so therefore would be irrelevant. You can only test for the presence of a drug, not the quantity. There's nothing to say definitively that Chloroform was the COD. She could have been Chloroforming Caylee for months but killed her by putting a pillow over her face and suffocating her. KWIM.

Dr. G. stated at the presser that the tox results were still pending but would probably not change the COD from unknown. The tox results may not have change the COD on the death certificate but they will be of great importance to the prosecution.

Bolded emphasis added by me.
I respectfully disagree that evidence of chloroform in Caylee's hair would be irrelevant to the charges against Casey: Casey administering chloroform to Caylee is a crime unto itself and LE found searches for chloroform in the forensic evaluations of Casey's computer.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

No, that wouldn't be the case. Even if the chloroform was found to be present in her hair, there is no way for the ME to prove that it contributed to her death, so therefore would be irrelevant. You can only test for the presence of a drug, not the quantity. There's nothing to say definitively that Chloroform was the COD. She could have been Chloroforming Caylee for months but killed her by putting a pillow over her face and suffocating her. KWIM.

Dr. G. stated at the presser that the tox results were still pending but would probably not change the COD from unknown. The tox results may not have change the COD on the death certificate but they will be of great importance to the prosecution.

Bold is mine. Forgive me if this has already been discussed but is this the case only with chloroform? Do you have a source? I was just wondering because I had never heard this and from what I can find, drugs can be measured and detected in very small amounts, but perhaps chloroform is different because of the way it evaporates???

This was referring to alcohol:
snipped:

The amounts found in hair are measured in nanograms (one nanogram equals only one billionth of a gram), however with the benefit of modern technology, it is possible to detect such small amounts. For EtG detection, more sensitive testing can detect picograms (one picogram equals 0.001 nanograms).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_analysis