2009.06.19 FBI Decomposition Report

[wildchild1961]

...you'll have to factor in the temperature outside as well. In Florida heat, no amount of a/c in a car sitting out in the sun will IMO cool down a trunk all that much.

good point..

again.. I am not saying I am right.. lol It was just something I thought of and wanted to toss it out here to get you guys opinion and more info on it

wild

 

[wildchild1961]

I guess question one would have to be, was the Sunfire's AC actually working at the time of the alleged events?

Question two: for how many days did KC run said AC while she was driving the "dead squirrel" car hither and yon between last seeing Caylee and the finding of said car in tow lot?

Question three: What is the genus and species of the type of grass at which defense must be grasping if they plan to suggest in open court that air conditioning could significantly alter the chemical signature of a human decompositional event that took place in the trunk of a Pontiac Sunfire, which make/model does not seem to include AC vents for the trunk area?

:waitasec:

wow.. are they? how the heck did I miss that part of their reasoning. Off to do a search on this site to find that info. thank you!

wild

 

[wildchild1961]

Was it enough to assist or contribute to forming adipocere? Dunno.

those are some of the questions I have as well.

wild

I was just doing more googling to see if I could be of any use here rather than just ASK questions.. lol Google pulled up Valhalla's site. So I reread her article again on adipocere formation.

In her article she says that at no time did any evidence point to the adipocere forming on the actual trunk liner. At the very bottom of her article.. she states that, "Based off the evidence we have been supplied to date, and barring missing some important information within the 12,000+ pages of discovery, it appears the adipocere on the napkins was either wiped directly off Caylee’s body, or off Casey’s hands after handling Caylee’s body."


So it got me thinking... if the adipocere did NOT form on the decomp on the napkin or body while IN the trunk.. but rather on Caylee's body which was removed from trunk for a while and placed somewhere else for a while that had continual air conditioning (house, basement, garage, storage unit?) until she moved her back into the trunk to get rid of her body? Has this ever been explored and if so.. would someone point me to the thread? Does anyone know if Tony's apartment complex had a basement storage unit?

wild

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Horace... check post #303 on this thread

wild

ok - but which bag - in what context?

 

[LambChop]

Keep in mind. KC was probably not running around with her car. She had NO MONEY for gas. Kept running out and had to steal the gas cans from the house. Plus TL said they used his car when they went out together. So the car was sitting in the sun all the time. That trunk was hot most of the time. jmo

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I do not believe A/C would reach the trunk of the car. Which is why any perishables stored back there from grocery shopping needs to be taken home immediately, if not sooner...JMHO

The below article is in reference to groceries and perishable items bought but I feel the same holds true, if a person is in the trunk...Oh poor, precious
Caylee...JMHO

Many people transport perishable items in their automobile. The most common form of such items are groceries. Many people, especially those living in warm climates, must rush home after completing a shopping trip in order to get perishable items into their refrigerator without exposing those items to the warm climate for a lengthy period of time.

Often, a total shopping trip includes a trip to one or more grocery stores as well as stops to other stores. However, if perishable items are purchased at one grocery store, a special trip home may be required before completing other stops. This is time consuming and wasteful of energy.

Therefore, there is a need for a means for protecting perishable items that are being stored in an automobile.

While many automobiles have air conditioning in the passenger compartment, the inventor is not aware of any automobile that has efficient air conditioning in the trunk of the automobile. Therefore, the trunk area of an automobile is likely to be very hot, especially so since it is a closed volume and there is no convection cooling available. Thus, the trunk area of an automobile is likely to be even hotter than an un-cooled passenger compartment.

Since most groceries are transported in the trunk area of an automobile, and the trunk is generally not exposed to the air conditioning of the automobile, the air conditioning does not reach the perishables stored in the trunk, and these perishables may be even more likely to spoil than if they were simply stored in the passenger compartment of the automobile. Many drivers also transport children on their errands. A child in a car seat may effectively remove most of the storage area in an automobile. This may make it very difficult to store items inside the automobile, and such items may have to be stored in the trunk, thereby raising the just-discussed problems.

Therefore, there is a need for a means for protecting perishable items that are being stored in the trunk of an automobile.

more
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6997004/description.html

 

[Amil]

I was just doing more googling to see if I could be of any use here rather than just ASK questions.. lol Google pulled up Valhalla's site. So I reread her article again on adipocere formation.

In her article she says that at no time did any evidence point to the adipocere forming on the actual trunk liner. At the very bottom of her article.. she states that, "Based off the evidence we have been supplied to date, and barring missing some important information within the 12,000+ pages of discovery, it appears the adipocere on the napkins was either wiped directly off Caylee’s body, or off Casey’s hands after handling Caylee’s body."


So it got me thinking... if the adipocere did NOT form on the decomp on the napkin or body while IN the trunk.. but rather on Caylee's body which was removed from trunk for a while and placed somewhere else for a while that had continual air conditioning (house, basement, garage, storage unit?) until she moved her back into the trunk to get rid of her body? Has this ever been explored and if so.. would someone point me to the thread? Does anyone know if Tony's apartment complex had a basement storage unit?

wild

Basements in Florida are rare and apartment complexes do not have basement storage units.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I remember on one Geraldo show, Dr. Michael Baden made reference to cholorform found in the "baby's" hair...

And the tot mom`s own defense attorney accidentally let it be revealed chloroform is found in Caylee`s hair. Can the state now identify the cause of death? And tonight, after convincing a judge they are too emotionally fragile to testify under oath, in the last hours, grandparents George and Cindy Anthony announce they will give sworn testimony, and it will all be caught on videotape.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0903/17/ng.01.html


Wondering if anything became of this, has it been shown in the evidence that Caylee's hair was saturated with chloroform??? If they did testing on it and it proves Caylee died from chloroform, that would be a 'smoking gun'! It would tell me, ICA might have done this often to Caylee...just wondering???JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[Just Jayla]

I don't know the answers to most of this.. (LOLOL are there any trunk experts on here??????? I just did a quick google on airtight trunks and I am hesitant to link the sites I read because I couldn't find one that had any real expert opinions.. (but again.. it was a quick search (am at work and still have alot of data entry to do.. lol) but from what I am reading.. there is no such thing as an airtight trunk. The one site speaks of doing your own experiment by leaving a cup of gasoline in the trunk (when NOT moving) and then open car a few hours later and see how strongly it smells inside the car. So IMO it would be perfectly feasible to think that after a few hours of running around in her car.. when she stopped for the day.. the cold air would seep into the trunk. So I would think that it makes perfect sense for that cold air to somehow affect the forensic signature of any decomp found.

How much? Dunno.


those are some of the questions I have as well.

wild

Some air must get in, but apparently not enough for a human to actually exist on the air, because I know there have been plenty of instances (unfortunately) where children accidentally climbed into and locked themselves in trunks, but did not make it out alive. There are now release hatches inside the trunk in the event this happens.

But, as another poster pointed out, KC was not using the car all that much, so it prolly was steaming hot in there most of the time.

 

[ynotdivein]

wow.. are they? how the heck did I miss that part of their reasoning. Off to do a search on this site to find that info. thank you!

wild

LOL not that we've seen yet--but I wouldn't put much past them when it comes to trying to discredit the science. was speaking in the hypothetical, is all. :dance:

 

[The World According]

FBI Decomposition Report

Two bombshells for me:

• The chloroform in the car was unusually high - about one million times higher than a normal decomposing body at that stage.

• The paper towels found in the garbage bag removed from the trunk had evidence of decomposition on them, indicating KC attempted to clean the mess, and threw the used towels into the bag from Tony's apartment.

Is Mrs. Kenney-Baden going to reappear at trial to argue these points?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwU6B--gSG4[/ame]
"The smell in the car, in my experience is the smell was of decomposition", former homicide detective Yuri Melich testified.

 

[The World According]

Is Mrs. Kenney-Baden going to reappear at trial to argue these points?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwU6B--gSG4[/ame]
"The smell in the car, in my experience is the smell was of decomposition", former homicide detective Yuri Melich testified.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESjK7FSZV38[/ame]
Some of the evidence presented folks have a visceral response to, that all of the junk science arguments cannot wash away. Listen to Judge Strickland here. If I were a juror, young or old, from either side of the tracks, when a seasoned homicide detective takes to the stand and tells me in his experience the smell in that car is decomposition,then the dog handler testifies the dog alerted on the car and later I hear testimony that prior deputy sheriff, the defendant's father recognized the smell to be decomposition too, I do not need the Oakridge Lab dudes to get me where my gut takes me.
Can one of the lawyers help me? In Cheney's request for Judge Strickland to step aside one of the things he mentioned as being egregious behavior on the part of Judge Strickland was this remark he made in his ruling at the bond hearing, "The truth and Miss Anthony are strangers". What do you make of that? It didn't seem odd to me, considering Casey literally admits numerous times in the police interviews to lying.

If I were trying this case, I'd lead with
the 911 calls,
31 days,
the decomp in the car that she and she alone had care custody and control of,
unique duct tape,
the autopsy,
the entomology reports that identify the body was there likely since June of 2008,
the recordings of her lying and taking the police on wild goose chases,
the Blockbuster video where she is wrapped in Tony's arms, ( the last day Caylee was seen alive ) ,
computer searches for neck breaking house hold weapons, shovel and a tv show that depicts the exact description of the story and the Nanny.
blue dress hot body photo when she was allegedly searching for her daughter, Bella Vita (beautiful life tattoo)
Amy to testify Casey made excuses for the decom smell by saying two dead squirrels climbed up in the car that she and she alone had care, custody and control over, also that Casey continued partying, not frantic or at all concerned for the 31 DAYS,
Tony and Jesse to testify they too never heard of Zanny and Casey acted normal, even giddy

I would close with
the 911 calls,
31 days,
unique duct tape,
the autopsy,
the entomology reports that identify the body was there likely since June of 2008, and
the decomp in the car
the tv show example that the storyline goes that the Nanny kidnapped the child that could have been her inspiration of the story she made up, to show the premeditaion,
the searches on her computer for neck breaking, shovel and household weapons

The defense will work hard to debunk the Body Farm and Oak Ridge Labs, the bona fides of the staff, going over their procedures and protocol and how it all started when the lab was built, they'll be animated and yell and point at their client and the prosecutors, they will leave it all on the floor. You can bet your life on that. If the baby was placed there while Casey was jailed......the jury will hear so often. Mr. Baez believes if you say it often enough a lie becomes the truth.

On rebuttal I'd mop the floor with whatever the defense just argues in their closing. I KNOW THESE PROSECUTORS CERTAINLY WILL PUT THEM TO SHAME!!
If the defense mentioned any of these in thier closing, I would end with George telling the FBI it was decomp he smelled,
Cindy's now infamous "It smells like there has been a dead body in the damn car!",
and my expert to clarify for the jury there are no two ways about it, it was not an old empty pizza box that created human decomposition in the back of the car that Casey had sole care, custody and control over,
and of course the thing that is also visceral........thirty one days!

I wouldn't call the inmates, or run far afield like they did in the OJ trial, with inconsequential witnesses that add no value to my puzzle. Indeed taken together as a whole, the evidence is compelling and the jury need not call on their college chemistry lessons to help. They can do what juries have done since way before our modern technology. Use the common sense God gave them.

It is just my opinion, as are all of my ppsts, I have no idea how to interpret the tests, etc. I just know my reaction to Yuri's decomposition testimony. It was definite.Visceral.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2ZCsL6Olzg[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-_kmxm7Sv0[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmixlqaEsSo[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7MaAQrPiY[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzYyGuaGxMQ[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfkFzMkFqdA[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHW3p4hpeE[/ame]
View attachment Mr. Miller interview.pdf
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqBdB3XQE28[/ame]
The rest is just icing on the perjury for me.

 

[The World According]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPdDRIIPc1g[/ame]
six minute mark

 

[ThinkTank]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPdDRIIPc1g
six minute mark

Exactly!! George KNEW and still KNOWS what the smell was ... and what caused the basketball sized stain in the trunk. He just keeps saying "he doesn't WANT to believe it is Caylee, as if that allows him to protect Inmate Anthony by not coming right out and saying he KNOWS it is Caylee and that Inmate Anthony had the car. He said the exact same words to Kerry S for the TODAY Show - "I don't WANT to believe"... "deep down in my heart".... He KNOWS his daughter did this, but he says "other people were involved" -- that is the defense mantra to implant reasonable doubt as to who actually killed Caylee, among a "group" of people involved, or more than one/KC.

 

[jon_burrows]

Exactly!! George KNEW and still KNOWS what the smell was ... and what caused the basketball sized stain in the trunk. He just keeps saying "he doesn't WANT to believe it is Caylee, as if that allows him to protect Inmate Anthony by not coming right out and saying he KNOWS it is Caylee and that Inmate Anthony had the car. He said the exact same words to Kerry S for the TODAY Show - "I don't WANT to believe"... "deep down in my heart".... He KNOWS his daughter did this, but he says "other people were involved" -- that is the defense mantra to implant reasonable doubt as to who actually killed Caylee, among a "group" of people involved, or more than one/KC.

BBM-Cindy knows too.

IMO

 

[ynotdivein]

Bumping this thread as it amplifies some of the conversation happening on the GA/gas cans thread, re: what GA might/might not have smelled, and when, and why...

 

[ynotdivein]

I know I will probably never be able to completely lay to rest the theory that the chloroform came from a combination of cleaning supplies, but since we are nearly in our 40th day of rain up here in CT, I thought I'd give it a shot before I hopped on the ark.
:fish:
Let's talk about bleach. :talker: The odor analysis done by the FBI was pretty thorough in identifying every compound found in the trunk's air. :thumb: Setting aside for now the question as to whether or not bleach would alter the carpet or stain coloration ... if KC used bleach on the trunk stain, one would expect that the constituent compounds of bleach would be detected in the trunk air sample.

The compounds are (from Wikipedia):
sodium hypochlorite ... plus ...
hydrogen peroxide or a peroxide-releasing compound such as:

sodium perborate
sodium percarbonate
sodium persulfate
sodium perphosphate
urea peroxide ... plus ...
​

catalysts and activators, e.g. tetraacetylethylenediamine and/or sodium nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate.

Looking through the list of chemicals found in the trunk air sample on pages 6570 and 6571, not one of the constituent compounds that make household bleach were found.

Acetone and Toluene. Both are common constituents of nail polish remover. They are also both byproducts of human decomposition and were found in the trunk, so their presence does not prove KC tried to use nail polish remover or some other similar solvent on the stain. Less common ingredients, such as Isopropyl Alcohol and Dibutyl Adipate were not found in the trunk air sample.

IMHO, it would not occur to KC to even think :waitasec: of using a solvent on the stain. Bleach made more sense to me ... as does laundry detergent or even Febreeze, neither of which contain the chemicals necessary to create chloroform.

The paper towels. LE's chemical analysis found VFA's consistent with human and pig decomposition, as well as compounds consistent with marijuana. They did not note any compounds consistent with cleaning fluids. The fact that none were mentioned strongly implies to me none were used.

My personal opinion is that KC first got wind of a trunk odor problem when a facefull of decomp smell surprised her as she opened the trunk to put the empty gas cans in it on the 23rd. :sick: She did nothing about it at that time, and on the 24th had to race George to the car to keep him from noticing.

Sometime between the 24th and the 27th, KC decides she needs an odor alibi :idea: and throws a bag of trash from Tony's in the trunk - just in case. She stops by mom & dad's on the 27th to pick up a few things and ... while she's there decided maybe to see if she can do something about that smelly stain.

Now remember, this is KC we are talking about - the grown woman who left smelly slacks in her car and did not bother washing them. :bang: Lazy KC grabs a few paper towels and dabs at the stain. A little comes up, but by this time most of liquid would have dried out. I can almost hear her thinking to herself "hey, it is pretty much dried out. Maybe it will start going away sometime."

So, having completed her hardest work of the week she tossed the paper towels into the bag and headed back to Tony's. :run: Whistling away as she drove :whistle:, she pats herself on the back and texts Amy to tell her that she took care of that squirrel problem.

While I highly recommend reading the entire thread if you haven't yet (or if, like me, you haven't in a while....), this JWG post deserved bumping. It's #156 above.

 

[Solace]

I have a question for all and if it were already answered, I apologize.

It is believed KC made her own chloroform and used it periodically on Caylee to put her to sleep.

It is made from chlorine and acetone. DON'T THESE GIVE OFF AN ODOR?

If KC WERE USING this on Caylee, wouldn't Cindy have smelled it over some period of time. Even if she asked about it and was given an excuse, I am sure it was used again and Cindy had to be wondering why this odor on Caylee?

Any answers. Appreciated. Thanks.

 

[ynotdivein]

I have a question for all and if it were already answered, I apologize.

It is believed KC made her own chloroform and used it periodically on Caylee to put her to sleep.

It is made from chlorine and acetone. DON'T THESE GIVE OFF AN ODOR?

If KC WERE USING this on Caylee, wouldn't Cindy have smelled it over some period of time. Even if she asked about it and was given an excuse, I am sure it was used again and Cindy had to be wondering why this odor on Caylee?

Any answers. Appreciated. Thanks.

Hey Solace. Not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, but I am with you on this--if KC had been using chloroform on Caylee, wouldn't the odor have been detectable afterwards?

One early theory was that KC used Benadryl or another OTC to knock Caylee out, and that the chloroform signature resulted from some combination of human decomp chemicals plus some cleaning agent KC or another used in the trunk. Having read back through this and other related threads, I just dunno... but JWG's post above does indicate that if chloroform was present, it was likely NOT an accidental by-product of mixing cleaning agents and smell-reducers (such as acetone) in the trunk.

IJDK. :waitasec: Between this, the gas can thread, the work on the duct tape thread and more, it feels like we have all the pieces in our hands--it's frustrating not to be able to put it all together yet.

 

[Solace]

Hey Solace. Not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, but I am with you on this--if KC had been using chloroform on Caylee, wouldn't the odor have been detectable afterwards?

One early theory was that KC used Benadryl or another OTC to knock Caylee out, and that the chloroform signature resulted from some combination of human decomp chemicals plus some cleaning agent KC or another used in the trunk. Having read back through this and other related threads, I just dunno... but JWG's post above does indicate that if chloroform was present, it was likely NOT an accidental by-product of mixing cleaning agents and smell-reducers (such as acetone) in the trunk.

IJDK. :waitasec: Between this, the gas can thread, the work on the duct tape thread and more, it feels like we have all the pieces in our hands--it's frustrating not to be able to put it all together yet.

Thanks YNot.

Well, she was staying at Ricardo's earlier in the year - some five days a week, according to Ricardo. And this man has no reason to lie about that - if anything, he would want to distance himself. So imo, he is truthful. Cindy around February or March seeks counseling and tells the counselor about KC's being a bad mother - This has to do with the staying out. NO ONE can tell me that if she were out five days a week with the baby, Cindy and George did not notice; yet they say to Morgan (civil lawyer) that she was out at the most 2 times a month. She tells the same to the FBI.

It is a lie. So, I am thinking that she is (cindy) is terrified that KC will leave with the baby and is overlooking KC lying about work, stealing from the family, the grandmother, the grandfather, friends, Jesse, everyone. I mean she tells Amy, forget it, that money is gone.

She had to have noticed traces of it here and there and maybe she did not put it together that she was using it to chloroform the baby. But it had to get on the baby's hair at some point, some of it - and at some point Cindy had to smell it. Had to.

Cindy lies so much that I know she would not admit that. She was lying to George and saying she is working, she said she is and that is it - lets not make her mad. IMO.

I think they had to have noticed it.