2010.02.16 Document Release: Stain on Trunk Liner

[chefmom]

First time posting...

I may be seeing things, but can anyone else see a faint line around the elbow/mid upper arm? Also, does anyone else see another hand on the side of the body laying down? It looks like both arms are resting in the same position. What I am saying is this...it almost looks to me like the arms may have been secured to the body around the chest (perhaps that extra piece of duct tape found loose at the dump site??)

Welcome!!

That line near the upper arm bugs me too. But the only piece of duct tape found at the scene that was the same "make & model" as the duct tape on the skull would have been too short to go around Caylee's chest. It would easily have fit around her wrists, though.

Of course, there could have been more tape that was never found, but the LE searchers did a pretty amazing job of clearing the scene.

Wow! Good eyes! Could it be from her little shirt being rolled up when she was placed in the bag? Or from the top of the laundry bag being folded over and placed under as the bag was placed in the trunk? KWIM? That line is bothersome. It also bothers me that above the elbow it also looks like a dislocated bone in the shoulder area. Awful!

 

[Tulessa]

First time posting...

I may be seeing things, but can anyone else see a faint line around the elbow/mid upper arm? Also, does anyone else see another hand on the side of the body laying down? It looks like both arms are resting in the same position. What I am saying is this...it almost looks to me like the arms may have been secured to the body around the chest (perhaps that extra piece of duct tape found loose at the dump site??)

Excellent first post and welcome to WS!!

 

[chefmom]

...one of them isn't necessary."

A quote I can't seem to attach to its original author, but, one that comes to mind when I find myself askew to someone like my good friend JWG, with whom I'm typically in agreement. In this case my perspective on the potential stain in the trunk outline is slightly different.

ETA: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.02.16 Doc Dump: Stain on Trunk Liner


In the interest of full disclosure, this is an area where I have demonstrated less than stellar abilities. The crime scene photos held all kinds of stuff in my view that it turns out... just weren't there. :bang: So...expecting just as much to be off as on - I submit to you what I'm seeing.

On the left below is the unretouched composite image that JWG so kindly pieced together & shared :thumb:. On the right is a copy of the image I have colorized to highlight what appears to me to be the outline. I have tagged some elements of the anatomy that should help you to recognize the overall positioning. Aside from adding the color and labels I have not modified the image in any way.

A description of what I'm seeing is the body in a crouching/fetal position with the points of greatest pressure (hip, shoulder, elbow & abdomen) demonstrating the most intense white (in the original). With the body laying essentially on one side with the upper torso slightly twisted such that the chest and abdomen are lying on the carpet. The torso is lying on top of what would be the left arm (mirror image) with the elbow located just behind the small of the back and the forearm passing across the abdomen and the hand(s) indistinguishable, but, positioned in what would be the lap area. The knee would be positioned over the hole in the wheel cover and the foot positioned somewhat in an on-the-toes fashion.

In this scenario the head would be resting on the section of carpet closest to the fender (not in this image as it is only of the wheel cover). IOW...the top of the image is where the shoulders would be located.

Ok! I really need to stop looking at this! But, does anyone else think that the area that BJB has pointed to as the hip looks like a pair of hands that are bound by something? Please tell me I'm seeing kittens! :sick:

 

[nort]

I actually see a face in the chest area not a real face but like a cartoon drawing. See the tip of the arrow marked chest looks like the top of a hair line. Then the hair swoops down to the left and sets right above an eye the eye looks like a c with a spot in the middle and then you can make out just to the right of it a small nose and small lips right below it. The straight line on the right of the white part of the chest sits right on the edge of the right eye and ends at the right side of the lips . Check it out its eerie..and a sad looking little face. I should really stop looking at it ..makes me sick..

 

[Snaz]

Ok! I really need to stop looking at this! But, does anyone else think that the area that BJB has pointed to as the hip looks like a pair of hands that are bound by something? Please tell me I'm seeing kittens! :sick:

O.M.G. I hope you ARE seeing kittens...because once you pointed it out, I saw it, too! It almost looks like her arms/hands are bound behind her back...

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I see that too...and it wouldn't surprise me, and would explain the other piece of duct tape found with the remains. I can imagine her taping Caylee's face to attempt to contain purging, but if she taped that poor baby's wrists that's a whole other story. Also, it means Caylee was alert while she was murdered, no other reason to tape the wrists than to stop her pulling the tape from her nose and mouth. I hope if this happened the SAO can prove it because that's about as diabolical as it gets. What on earth is Casey Anthony anyway? She must have had some real hatred for Caylee to be able to do this to her....very strange.

 

[nort]

I totally agree with the hands tied behind the back.

 

[AZlawyer]

O.M.G. I hope you ARE seeing kittens...because once you pointed it out, I saw it, too! It almost looks like her arms/hands are bound behind her back...

I totally agree with the hands tied behind the back.

I agree that this is a possible interpretation of the stain. I think we tend to want to see the shape of Caylee in a normal "sleeping" position instead.

 

[ynotdivein]

I had been considering that Caylee's hands were in front of her, in her lap area as BJB (I believe) posited. But--if the "extra" piece of tape were used to bind her wrists to prevent Caylee from picking at the tape on her face, it wouldn't do any good to have them in front of her, as she could still bend her elbows/raise her hands to her face.

 

[LambChop]

Only possible reason to bind the hands behind the back is to keep the child from removing the duct tape from her mouth........that can only mean one thing.

 

[chefmom]

Excuse me while I cry for this poor little lost soul! I wouldn't treat an animal in such a horrific manner. DP back on the table. . . .you betcha!

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I can see Casey starting this as a 'game' with Caylee, taping the wrists first. I'm going to stop there, it's so unbelievably sick to imagine this crime. But I'm also thinking now this was not done against Cindy so much, as done out of jealousy of Caylee herself. Maybe if Cindy wanted to take Caylee and reject Casey that Casey was like 'right, Caylee thinks she's won' and decided to prove who was truly dominant. Kind of worked for Casey in a way didn't it, the parents are 100% behind her, and their grandchild has been forgotten in their defense of their indefensible daughter, and Casey is in the spotlight. EVIL.

 

[ynotdivein]

OK. May need BJB or JWG for this one but...

If we can all agree that the brighter white areas on the pictures posted earlier in this thread seem to represent areas where there was greater pressure on the carpet from Caylee's inert body laying there for X amount of time:

then question: do the impressions indicate the hands laying in the lap area (between tummy and leg imprints) or behind the back/under the bottom/hip area?

IMO, if her hands were bound before her or arranged unbound in her lap, would she not have inertly rolled forward while being transported, resulting in a "white spot" where her hands laid, which we do not see in the pictures released thus far?

If her hands were bound at the wrists behind her back, how would that affect the brighter-white impressions in the photos we've seen thus far? IMO while there is a clear impression of a figure that relates accurately to a child's body the size of Caylee's, there's no clear delineation of the hands. (While the foot does seem fairly obvious.)

Thoughts, WSers?

 

[nort]

Seems to me the spot marked hip is what looks like the hands. As mentioned earlier there is no spot where the pull up was. Wouldnt the pull up cover the hip as well? Been an awfully long time since I've had experience with diapers so I could be way off but the thought has crossed my mind.

 

[nort]

Hate to even type this but she did surround her in garbage and a plastic bin perhaps thats what kept her from rolling in the trunk.

 

[AZlawyer]

OK. May need BJB or JWG for this one but...

If we can all agree that the brighter white areas on the pictures posted earlier in this thread seem to represent areas where there was greater pressure on the carpet from Caylee's inert body laying there for X amount of time:

then question: do the impressions indicate the hands laying in the lap area (between tummy and leg imprints) or behind the back/under the bottom/hip area?

IMO, if her hands were bound before her or arranged unbound in her lap, would she not have inertly rolled forward while being transported, resulting in a "white spot" where her hands laid, which we do not see in the pictures released thus far?

If her hands were bound at the wrists behind her back, how would that affect the brighter-white impressions in the photos we've seen thus far? IMO while there is a clear impression of a figure that relates accurately to a child's body the size of Caylee's, there's no clear delineation of the hands. (While the foot does seem fairly obvious.)

Thoughts, WSers?

Although, as I mentioned above, I can see that the hands might have been bound behind the back, I do think I see an impression of an open hand where the upper leg would be--like she was lying on her left side with her lower arm and left hand under her left thigh. I'm at work right now, with no fun photo software, so I can't really explain it better than that.

 

[ynotdivein]

Although, as I mentioned above, I can see that the hands might have been bound behind the back, I do think I see an impression of an open hand where the upper leg would be--like she was lying on her left side with her lower arm and left hand under her left thigh. I'm at work right now, with no fun photo software, so I can't really explain it better than that.

But if she were laying on her left side with her lower arm and left hand under her left thigh, would not the mass/density of thigh-on-top-of-arm&hand result in a deeper, or perhaps more-nuanced, impression?

It really never dawned on me until tonight but JWG's outline explains that there is a dark area between chest and knee which may be related to Caylee wearing her pull up. But if that's the case, then what else explains the white pressure-point image behind what would have been Caylee's waist, if not her hands bound together and pressed back into the nap of the Sunfire's trunk carpet? It couldn't have been her hip, if she were wearing pull-ups..

:waitasec:

 

[TorisMom003]

With Pull-ups (the brand name ones and the generic ones) the sides are thin. Thin enough that they can be "ripped apart" for ease in removing them like a diaper. Think of a pair of high cut ladies panties. The upper thigh will be exposed and what is covered is covered by a thin layer of material, not the thicker padded part that is in the front, middle and back of the Pull-ups. If, as what it appears to me, that stain is Caylee on her side then there would not be a clear defined spot where the Pull-up was. Hope this made sense and helps some.

 

[sleutherontheside]

With Pull-ups (the brand name ones and the generic ones) the sides are thin. Thin enough that they can be "ripped apart" for ease in removing them like a diaper. Think of a pair of high cut ladies panties. The upper thigh will be exposed and what is covered is covered by a thin layer of material, not the thicker padded part that is in the front, middle and back of the Pull-ups. If, as what it appears to me, that stain is Caylee on her side then there would not be a clear defined spot where the Pull-up was. Hope this made sense and helps some.

Pull ups (brand and generic)...have an "elastic" side panel that does indeed tear away. It contains no absorbent materials but does have some WP properties. Attached, is a photo for reference.

 

[beach]

Although, as I mentioned above, I can see that the hands might have been bound behind the back, I do think I see an impression of an open hand where the upper leg would be--like she was lying on her left side with her lower arm and left hand under her left thigh. I'm at work right now, with no fun photo software, so I can't really explain it better than that.

But if she were laying on her left side with her lower arm and left hand under her left thigh, would not the mass/density of thigh-on-top-of-arm&hand result in a deeper, or perhaps more-nuanced, impression?

It really never dawned on me until tonight but JWG's outline explains that there is a dark area between chest and knee which may be related to Caylee wearing her pull up. But if that's the case, then what else explains the white pressure-point image behind what would have been Caylee's waist, if not her hands bound together and pressed back into the nap of the Sunfire's trunk carpet? It couldn't have been her hip, if she were wearing pull-ups..

:waitasec:

As hard and long as we worked on that duct tape thread....and the final theory of Q104 being used to bind her hands... I knew that they couldn't have been bound in front of her since she would still be able to flex her elbows to get her hands to her mouth. Still, the thought of that baby having her arms bound behind her back makes me sick. I get chills just thinking about it. Like was pointed out before, binding her arms only means ONE THING....she was alive at the time. The image I just saw makes me physically ill.

I wish SO BADLY that the SA could tie Q104 to this theory conclusively (through the trunk image??) and present it at trial. It would be the smoking gun, IMO.

I only wish it were legal for Casey to have her arms handcuffed behind her back every moment she remains alive on this earth. Forever and ever.