2010.04.23 Vacuum Cleaner Forensics

[logicalgirl]

Not to sound disrespectful in any way, but what you and/or I would do is not really relevant to this case. What is relevant, in this thread in particular, is that there is no evidence that the As vacuums and/or steam cleaners were used to clean the trunk. I was trying to get a feel for where you stood on this subject, and thought upon my clarifying, as per your request, that you would enlighten me with your response.
jmho

I'm happy to respond to your comment. When we discuss a topic on a thread that has evidence not yet proven beyond a doubt, and we are pursuing different options, I use a number of factors before posting an opinion.
For example, you believe the A's vacuum cleaners, at least the ones taken into evidence, showed no evidence being used to clean the trunk. Which to me begs the question - was one piece of equipment disposed of, replaced, or an outside source used.
For me to come to an opinion about a conclusion of evidence, I consider the evidence, the legal experts opinions, and my own logic process. You may not consider your opinions to be relevant when coming to a decision about the evidence at this point before it is presented in isolation before the trial, but to me, mine is.

 

[beach]

Last post for awhile. I promise.

New thread to document/reference the alleged replacement of the washing machine here:
G&C allegedly replaced their washing machine - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


HTH.

BBM

in re. the bold - First, don't you dare promise such! :trout:

I sooo appreciate you linking these threads that reference issues being discussed here. There was some FANTASTIC sleuthing done back in the day when these items were first taken into custody, and frankly, the Ping threads alone are worthy of some sleuthing award, complete with a spyglass statue. Simply AMAZING work done on those. JWG's computer analysis is invaluable. Those threads are, in my opinion, some of the most valuable info anywhere in Anthony forums. And they show a true collaboration of hard work and much time spent by MANY WS'ers. One of our finest moments. (Not too many by myself, because frankly, I was in learning mode and aghast at how many smart, dedicated members were willing to spend countless hours to get at the TRUTH. heh, I was out of my league hanging out with those guys, but I learned A LOT.) Not just about this case, but how to sleuth effectively. Those threads alone are what hooked me on WebSleuths and it is the reason it is the only crime forum I frequent. Everything I could ever want to know is right here.

Anyway, my point is, many of the older threads are vital to read and study to really understand. Otherwise, we will start chasing out tails and trying to figure out stuff that has already been substantiated for us. When I go back and read, knowing what we know now, some of it seems so obvious. But at the time, with the information we had then, it didn't. So, if you find yourself getting bored or repeating the same ol' same ol', dig around and read those threads. They are true page turners and I promise ya won't be bored any longer.

 

[Gypsy Road]

I'm still thinking KC had plenty of time to clean that car even before she left it at the Amscott. She obviously dabbed the trunk with paper towels at some point - way before the car ended up back home. We know she took Tony's vehicile in for a wash while he was away in NY, whose to say she didn't take her own car for a wash around the same time.

 

[lisalei321]

I'm still thinking KC had plenty of time to clean that car even before she left it at the Amscott. She obviously dabbed the trunk with paper towels at some point - way before the car ended up back home. We know she took Tony's vehicile in for a wash while he was away in NY, whose to say she didn't take her own car for a wash around the same time.

If I remember correctly...hers had already been impounded by that time, I think...:waitasec:

 

[DaughterAlice]

Think Cindy and CASH.

That car probably only had liablility on it, it is an older car.
They wouldn't have gotton a nickle for it ~

So, CASH, and that brings me to the conclusion that this is why Cindy in her first angry calls to 911 tells she wants her daughter arrested for grand theft auto.
She just put out close to $500 for tow and storage fees.
She needed a police report to go with her reciept to turn it in to the insurance company so she could get it back.

Probably thought once she had the police report in hand, she could later drop charges after submitting it to the insurance, and, in the meantime, try to scare Casey with it.
Same thing with that gas can caper of George's, IMO.

Sorry if anyone else has brought this up = I'm just catching up from page 3, and, now will go back.

All really great points. I'm not actually disagreeing with you (because I have a differeent view BUT it's possible that we are BOTH right).

Sigh . . . okay, here's where I get in to trouble for saying unfounded & unproved things . . .

I used to work with someone who lives in the A neighborhood. Right before this whole story exploded, CA told someone related to this neighbor that she had decided to report the car missing as a way to force KC to come home with Caylee. It's been a long time since I've spoken w/this individual, so I realize my memory could fail me, but this is how I remember it. I was especially ticked off when CA outright LIED to the FBI & told them that it was more or less a knee-jerk reaction - that she just wasn't thinking because "of course" KC was allowed to use the car anytime she wanted to. Obviously it was NOT knee-jerk considering that she preplanned it. I don't work with the individual anymore, and haven't for over a year now. It was not at all easy to get him/her to talk about the situation because he/she was sick of it & was taking great pains not to be involved.

So it could have been money motivated, and/or it could have been manipulation that convinced CA to report the vehicle as stolen.

 

[beach]

If I remember correctly...hers had already been impounded by that time, I think...:waitasec:

The paper towels that tested positive for decomp were found in the trash bag thrown into the dumpster at the impound yard. Pretty sure of that.

 

[Gypsy Road]

If I remember correctly...hers had already been impounded by that time, I think...:waitasec:

But she had that car when Caylee was in that trunk. She could have vacuumed and cleaned it the day or night she threw Caylee in the woods. That's what I'm saying. People keep talking about this "short window" of time that the car could have been cleaned before it was towed to LE. Maybe there was a short window between the time George drove the car home and police came to get the car, but Casey had time to clean that car well before anyone knew Caylee was missing.

 

[DaughterAlice]

Thanks Gypsy Road. ALSO a good possibility. It seems she took Tony's jeep, so why not the stinky pontiac. I mean really, does it make sense to say 'two squirells died in my car & it stinks, but I took my boyfriend's vehicle to the carwash"??:waitasec:

 

[beach]

But she had that car when Caylee was in that trunk. She could have vacuumed and cleaned it the day or night she threw Caylee in the woods. That's what I'm saying. People keep talking about this "short window" of time that the car could have been cleaned before it was towed to LE. Maybe there was a short window between the time George drove the car home and police came to get the car, but Casey had time to clean that car well before anyone knew Caylee was missing.

I think that is what she tried to do with the paper towels that she tossed in the trash bag. That GA & the impound guy tossed in the dumpster. I just don't think she was very thorough. que sara sara, ykwim?

 

[DaughterAlice]

FWIW, the EPass and cell phone records don't support that there was much time at all for the Pontiac to be taken by a car wash, etc.

There was speculation 'bout this early in the case when the pics of the Pontiac in the CSI garage made the Pontiac look awfully clean after having been in Johnson's Tow yard for weeks, IYKWIM.

IIRC, in a few different threads...prolly 7/15 Ping thread included...we worked out the timeline of the Pontiac coming home from the towyard via EPass & cell phone records...George & Cindy's leaving the house that afternoon, etc. specifically to determine how much time either G or C would've had to do any trunk cleaning. Some thought that dumping water from a steam cleaner might've been the source for the K9 alerts in the backyard. IIRC, JWG created a stellar, multi-colored, timeline in the ping thread making this very easy to follow. In short, there wasn't a tremendous amount of time for G or C to clean the Pontiac before LE arrived.

Also...the "Events post 911..." thread referenced above, and the "Sealing Pontiac..."threads were worked out to focus on cleaning after LE left and before the car was sealed. The "Events..."thread being relatively short and coming last is a decent summary. But, in short, IMHO, there were a few very brief opportunities for some cleaning on the morning of 7/16...but, not much to support that it happened.

HTH.

ETA: Link to the timeline JWG put together :thumb: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Ping Map for July 15, 2008 - Discuss that day only

THANKS BJB!! Sorry I didn't respond to your post right away, I somehow missed it. Thanks for all the references & resources. The cell phone records would be very telling, but not the epass. It's easy enough to get around w/o using the toll roads. Still seems hinky . . . that car seems like it was cleaned.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Understand, DA. FWIW, just saying the epass records indicate a straight trip home w/ the car...no delays...no out of the way path.

 

[Chiquita71]

Hello WS

Here's a link I found on WS, in the "images only" sticky(?)thread. Are these pictures of the actual Pontiac? There are pictures on this page from the inside of Casey car, if that is what this is.


http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q259/M2KFL/CAYLEE ANTHONY CASE/?start=all

...js...

 

[mitzi]

FYI, FWIW,...there was some very good posting re: Dr. Lee & CSI's recovery of additional hair earlier. My ISP is still running slow, so I'm search-challenged @ the moment, but, IIRC, Dr. Lee may have found one or two hairs, then, CSI went back through items in the garage - not necessarily the trunk - and came up w/ the add'l hairs.

Also, BJB, weren't the additional hairs found in amongst the garbage from the bag (from TonE's house) that was in KC's trunk, not necessarily just "in the trunk"?

 

[beach]

Hello WS

Here's a link I found on WS, in the "images only" sticky(?)thread. Are these pictures of the actual Pontiac? There are pictures on this page from the inside of Casey car, if that is what this is.


http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q259/M2KFL/CAYLEE ANTHONY CASE/?start=all

...js...

No Chiquita, they are reference pics of an identical car. (if you scan through to pg. 4, photo #73, it is titled FauxCaseymobile and says it is a 'virtual twin')

 

[BondJamesBond]

Also, BJB, weren't the additional hairs found in amongst the garbage from the bag (from TonE's house) that was in KC's trunk, not necessarily just "in the trunk"?

Here you go, mitzi. This does the best job IMHO of describing what came from where in a single post.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3501124&postcount=88"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The 17 *new* hairs[/ame]

 

[eaglemom]

No hairs collected showed evidence of decomp. (pg. 42)


Questions:

1) Is 'pbx' forensic speak? I ask because the shop vac and steam cleaners specifically stated 'hairs'. The collections from the vacuum were referred to as pbxs.

2) Someone please remind me when LE finally took possession of the Pontiac, please.

I *think* pbx is shorthand for 'pillbox' which seems to be a collection unit for what they are finding in each of the vacuums ( for example the Q70 vacuum cleaner had 1 pbx from the bottom brush area and 4 pbxs from the cannister filter) p.13897 FBI report http://www.wftv.com/pdf/23243293/detail.html

If one goes further into the FBI report and looks at the trace evidence unit secondary inventory one can see a list of the number of slides the investigators choose to take from each and then number of pillboxes obtained from each... (for exampls Q70 the vacuum cleaner had 30 slides and 5 pillboxes) p.13902 http://www.wftv.com/pdf/23243293/detail.html

While it is true that no decompositional hairs appear to have been located in the various vacuums, I do believe there were plenty of hairs - thus all the slides that were generated and checked (a total of 70).

And I do not see a report that gives the results for the check the FBI was to perform on the slides sent BACK to them for checking (10 slides from Q59 and 1 slide from Q107) p. 13909 -

the report says Q107 (the hair) is dissimilar to all the crime techs and Q59 and K2. Q59 is the 'hair mass' (p.8474 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0929/21147633.pdf ) and K2 is Casey.

I just don't understand submitting 10 slides for re-analysis on Q59. They don't appear to have sent any slides with K2 samples - we have been known to not get ALL of the documentation but it is just a small puzzle to me.

 

[beach]

Thank you, eaglemom!!!

I, too, recall seeing the reference to pillbox collection units. My brain short-circuited when it came to making the connection to the obvious abbreviation. :loser:

Makes perfect sense!