2010.06.01 - Defense Motion for Tips

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  • #101
Sounds to me like Defense Lawyers are just doing their job. Anything and everything can help them come trial time. At any rate, I believe that the Defense should have the same information the State has. thats my opinion.

Ps Having spaghetti with nts can be fun

Sorry meant to respond earlier...huge storm in my area...blowing through now...thank goodness. I do think the defense will have the same information as the state. This is not what I am worried about. Both sides do tend to play one another's bluff...

Speaking of spaghetti, lol, I hope you don't throw it at walls. JK.
 
  • #102
Wow, I had never heard those voicemails! That "anonymous" one is totally CA!!! Longwinded, using extra words to convey one idea, the inflection and pronunciation of words. Duh!! Who did she think she was fooling? Oh wait, the A's are all much smarter than the rest of us, especially LE.

Respectfully disagree. NOT Cindy on that anonymous message. It was definitely a female but not CA. Different tone in the voice and not condescending in nature. JMO
 
  • #103
Well, I am thinking there is more. I can't see the defense putting in motions for something they already have. Thats my opinion. Makes sense.

THAT is what is so frustrating about KC's defense team. And why they are such a joke.

One would think there must be more, why else do all that.. make yourself look such fool. Over and over again.. sigh..

But that is the way JB 'rolls'.

He plays victim. He also plays to get others to do his work for him. He plays all sorts of games.

I use to feel sorry for KC for having such a.. aghm.. lawyer. But she has seen him in action for a while now and can fire him at any time. This is her choice to have such lame counsel. So I don't stress my self over it anymore.
 
  • #104
Well fishing may be okay. When you believe your client is innocent and the State believes she is guilty, your going to look at things differently. Problem is, is that the state whom thinks the client is guilty, is the keeper of the data. The law clearly supports the defenses right to discovery. The defense should have the right to look over the data and see if Le missed anything important. Call it fishing if you will. Obviously the Le did not take Rk tip serious enough to go down into the water and check it out. So in my opinion, the Le has shown me that they don't always act as though it is important. IE the Rk tip, IE the JJ tip, sealing the pontiac. A fishing we must go. IMO

BBM...Although correct on its face, your statement lacks a crucial piece of fact. The law clearly states BOTH sides have the right to discovery and as of yet, the defense has yet to uphold their end of the bargain. At the beginning of this, the defendant elected to participate in Reciprocal Discovery That means they agreed to hand over and EXCHANGE DISCOVERY MATERIAL TO THE STATE. Well...we are all waiting.

Also, don't disparage LE has a whole and say they didn't take RK's tip seriously enough to check it out. One individual officer (who was wrong) didn't follow up appropriately. But LE sent a patrol to that location to investigate.

LE doesn't always act as though it is important? Obviously you have never done police work or even assisted in any capacity. They received over 5000 tips. For the sake of conversation and simplicity...say there were 50 police officers full time assigned to this case. That is 100 tips to follow up on per officer. Take an 8 hour day, include days off, sick, court appearances, out of state tips, recorded interviews of these tipsters, etc...this isn't magic that obviously takes time.(they in some cases have to even find these people first). Now take the approx 250 people on the states witness list, as of last court date the defense had only depo'ed 39 of them IN TWO YEARS.

I think you are seriously misrepresenting the facts. JMO
 
  • #105
Sounds to me like Defense Lawyers are just doing their job. Anything and everything can help them come trial time. At any rate, I believe that the Defense should have the same information the State has. thats my opinion.

Ps Having spaghetti with nts can be fun

Do you also agree that the State should have everything the Defense has?
 
  • #106
I respectfully disagree. I believe the defense have a valid reason for their actions to try to get these tips. IMO

I certainly appreciate posters efforts to explain the process to all of us. Sometimes we just need to hammer it out. It needs to make sense to me. If the state coppied the tips that already were charged for and sold them to Jb for 1500.00 whom will pay for it with state money, then the state is charging the state for double coppies. That just does not make sense to me. There must be more tips in this last batch. IMO

Hope no one gives up, sometimes hammering out the details can be frustrating, but better now so there are not any surprises come trial. Your right, I will be surprised if she is found guilty since I still see no evidence of pre mediated murder to date. IMO

The state isn't charging the state. The SA can access and copy the records themselves. The SA is going to have access to the Clerk of Courts and sheriffs records. Some county offices do charge a copy fee to other county departments though. If you use their paper and copier. That's why most of our county offices (not in Florida or Orange County) send stuff back and forth electronically. It's still county money it just shifts from one department to the other.

JB was charged for the tips. At the hearing JB seemed to be confused about how much he owed the clerk of courts office or sheriff's department. I believe the total owed was $200. I believe HHJP authorized the 2k in order to stop the squabbling and said just get it done. From what I gathered at the hearing JB has some of the tips but not all of them because they didn't pick them up. From what I gathered he saw the psychic ones and decided the state was trying to "pull a fast one" and never went back to pick up the rest or pay for them. Because by golly he'd see them in court for this outrage moo.

On a side note when it comes to paying for tips and being indigent. An inmate or someone who is deemed indigent is still responsible for paying fees associated with public records.

Roesch v. State, 633 So. 2d 1, 3 (Fla. 1993)
(indigent inmate not entitled to receive copies of public records free of charge nor to have original state attorney files mailed to him in prison.)

Potts v. State, 869 So. 2d 1223 (Fla. 2d DCA 2004)
(no merit to inmate's contention that Ch. 119, F.S., entitles him to free copies of all records generated in his case.)

Alexis v. State, 732 So. 2d 46 (Fla. 3d DCA 1999)
(indigent defendant not entitled to public records free of charge.)

Yanke v. State, 588 So. 2d 4 (Fla. 2d DCA 1991)
(prisoner must pay copying and postage charges to have copies of public records mailed to him)

All of your questions about sunshine laws can be found at this link:
http://www.myflsunshine.com

Specifically:
http://www.myflsunshine.com/sun.nsf/sunmanual/8EF55371C466B09A852566F30070A187

Which deals with fees associated with public records requests. This website is a wealth of information on the sunshine laws covering all aspects of the law and was provided to the public by the Florida State Attorney Generals office.
 
  • #107
BBM...Although correct on its face, your statement lacks a crucial piece of fact. The law clearly states BOTH sides have the right to discovery and as of yet, the defense has yet to uphold their end of the bargain. At the beginning of this, the defendant elected to participate in Reciprocal Discovery That means they agreed to hand over and EXCHANGE DISCOVERY MATERIAL TO THE STATE. Well...we are all waiting.

Also, don't disparage LE has a whole and say they didn't take RK's tip seriously enough to check it out. One individual officer (who was wrong) didn't follow up appropriately. But LE sent a patrol to that location to investigate.

LE doesn't always act as though it is important? Obviously you have never done police work or even assisted in any capacity. They received over 5000 tips. For the sake of conversation and simplicity...say there were 50 police officers full time assigned to this case. That is 100 tips to follow up on per officer. Take an 8 hour day, include days off, sick, court appearances, out of state tips, recorded interviews of these tipsters, etc...this isn't magic that obviously takes time.(they in some cases have to even find these people first). Now take the approx 250 people on the states witness list, as of last court date the defense had only depo'ed 39 of them IN TWO YEARS.

I think you are seriously misrepresenting the facts. JMO

Is there some kind of link or something to back up this claim that the defense has not turned over discovery? I studied the dockett last night and see nowhere where it says who turned over the discovery. Can anyone help out on this?

As far as how many people work for the state, it is my opinion that there is no dream team in the world that could match the state for manpower. Hope someone can help out to hammer out all these claims about the defense not turning any discovery over. IMO Moo
 
  • #108
Do you also agree that the State should have everything the Defense has?

Yes , accept for client privilege and strategy. thanks
 
  • #109
Wow, I had never heard those voicemails! That "anonymous" one is totally CA!!! Longwinded, using extra words to convey one idea, the inflection and pronunciation of words. Duh!! Who did she think she was fooling? Oh wait, the A's are all much smarter than the rest of us, especially LE.

Interesting voicemails.
My opinion on them.

I thought it sounded like CA(a lot of um's and pauses and more um's) but I do not believe it was Cindy, I thought it could be their friend & neighbor Holly G.
The call was made to help clear up the discrepancy with the dates given of when Caylee was last seen...the anonymous caller said she knew for a fact, yet did not elaborate how she knew it to be factual, that Caylee and Casey were at home with Cindy the evening of June 13th.
Onto Lee's call.
I got the impression he and his parents were not in total agreement on some things very early on.
They all believed that if they could talk to Casey they could get her to open up, Baez and the A's wanted her out on bond to do this but Lee was not 100% certain that bonding her out would accomplish this.
He said and that he has tried his best when he spoke with his parents to make sure they were all working towards the same goal and that was to find Caylee and they needed to be supportive of each other. This statement peaked my curiosity.

All, IMO.
:twocents::angel:
 
  • #110
Over 14,000 pages of discovery was released by the state. Not one piece by the defense...

IDK if we are in the same world for everyone has been waiting to see what the defense is doing with all their precious time and money, state money that is..We halfheartedly heard how much was spent by the defense via the sale of photos (licensing fees) to ABC, CBS and NBC but what was accomplished???

We've heard how much Baez was paid and ALyon (no S) but not one piece of paper has been given to the state by the defense...JMHO
 
  • #111
Is there some kind of link or something to back up this claim that the defense has not turned over discovery? I studied the dockett last night and see nowhere where it says who turned over the discovery. Can anyone help out on this?

As far as how many people work for the state, it is my opinion that there is no dream team in the world that could match the state for manpower. Hope someone can help out to hammer out all these claims about the defense not turning any discovery over. IMO Moo

According to the docket which is referenced in this thread the defense has yet to turn in any discovery.

They have submitted a witness list and that is it.

Further more as has been referenced many times here in this thread. When the defense turns in discovery it automatically becomes public record. We would know if something was turned in as it would be reflected in the docket, the news media would be jumping on it, and I bet Musikman would have a copy as well.

You can also make a request yourself for the information at the Orange County Clerk of Courts office.

You can submit a written request here:
Clerk of the Court
425 N. Orange Avenue
[P.O. Box 4994]
Orlando, Florida 32801

Or you can make a request by phone:
407-836-6321 (records management)
 
  • #112
I read the docket last night and no where does it say the defense has yet to turn over any discovery. So, I can not take that as a statement of fact.

Furthermore, I see lots of supplemental discovery entries, but no reference to who put in the motion. So, I think some are from the defense and some are from the state.

It may just be wishful thinking that the defense has turned over no discovery, however, why would they turn over the bulk until they get the states discovery...Seems to be a circular argument at this point and I will agree to disagree. There is no evidence in my opinion that the defense has turned over no discovery. JMO
 
  • #113
Interesting voicemails.
My opinion on them.

I thought it sounded like CA(a lot of um's and pauses and more um's) but I do not believe it was Cindy, I thought it could be their friend & neighbor Holly G.
The call was made to help clear up the discrepancy with the dates given of when Caylee was last seen...the anonymous caller said she knew for a fact, yet did not elaborate how she knew it to be factual, that Caylee and Casey were at home with Cindy the evening of June 13th.
Onto Lee's call.
I got the impression he and his parents were not in total agreement on some things very early on.
They all believed that if they could talk to Casey they could get her to open up, Baez and the A's wanted her out on bond to do this but Lee was not 100% certain that bonding her out would accomplish this.
He said and that he has tried his best when he spoke with his parents to make sure they were all working towards the same goal and that was to find Caylee and they needed to be supportive of each other. This statement peaked my curiosity.

All, IMO.
:twocents::angel:

I interpreted the calls exactly the same way you did, Intermezzo.

I found the call from Lee particularly telling. He even privately admitted to YM that he didn't necessarily agree with his parents' motives on why Casey should be released on bond. Obviously, he was correct.

Let's face it, if CA's motive was pure in thinking that Casey should be released on bond because she felt "they could get her to open up", she wouldn't have thrown a hissy fit with TM asked her to mark an 'X' on the map and thrown them out of her house. CA's motive was to protect Casey from incriminating herself any further. Even then, she cared more about Casey than finding Caylee. Who btw, was never missing and by then, CA knew that. Otherwise, she would have been the one insisting Casey mark that map.
 
  • #114
I read the docket last night and no where does it say the defense has yet to turn over any discovery. So, I can not take that as a statement of fact.

Furthermore, I see lots of supplemental discovery entries, but no reference to who put in the motion. So, I think some are from the defense and some are from the state.

It may just be wishful thinking that the defense has turned over no discovery, however, why would they turn over the bulk until they get the states discovery...Seems to be a circular argument at this point and I will agree to disagree. There is no evidence in my opinion that the defense has turned over no discovery. JMO

The docket isn't going to say the defense hasn't turned anything in for starters. It's just simply not going to be there. The only thing turned in by the defense is a witness list which was on 11/20/2008.

It is fact that the defense has not turned in any evidence except for the witness list and the sealed financial info given in camera to JS. That is it. Not to be snarky but what we have here is fact and the denial of said fact that's making it circular. Anyone can stand firm and argue water isn't wet with out having to prove it....that doesn't make it so however. Water is still wet whether we choose to believe it or not.

Besides that do you really believe Nancy Grace and others wouldn't be knocking themselves down trying to get at the discovery turned in by the defense? The media would be all over it like vultures trying to pick it apart plain and simple.

Can you show evidence that the defense did turn in discovery? Perhaps you've made a records request as Musikman does to acquire said defense discovery.

The record clearly shows that nothing has been turned in except for two above mentioned items. I also believe JA made comments to this fact (no defense discovery being turned in) in open court if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Also adding this to my post

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21913703/detail.html
Second motion of state to compel reciprocal discovery.

Since then I believe there was a hearing that established new completion dates for having everything completed and turned in. From Dec 09 (6 months ago roughly) not one doc dump, records request, media coverage, or any other means has shown evidence released by the defense in this case.
 
  • #115
Except the only fishing Baez has done has been with a fishing pole. If he'd actually, you know, DO SOME WORK, he might be able to come up with a defense! And yes, LE should ignore the HUGE amount of circumstantial evidence to follow every little bitty trail on the very MINUTE possibility that someone else did this. They don't have the time or the manpower to chase down every bit of craziness in this case. My GOD, this case would take forever if they did and they surely would be deserving of promotions for doing it.

Fishing is NEVER okay. Fishing means the defense has nothing else and only wants to find something, ANYTHING to point at that distracts the jury from the truth. LE doesn't have time for that. LE only follows other leads when it's necessary. It's not their JOB to clear Casey Anthony, nor is it the state's job to clear her either. Now if something substantial enough came up to suggest someone else, they shouldn't ignore that, but NOTHING like that has happened in this case. And neither of them are myserious "keepers of data" that just want to put innocent people in prison.

Also, CASEY got herself into this, got in deep, and now she can't get out. I am tired of seeing people wanting to blame everyone else for where she is when SHE is the one who got herself there through all of the lies to police and everyone she talked to. Now if her parents want to hire a competent investigator to find another REAL suspect, they should do that on their own time, or Baez should be doing that for Casey. LE is doing their job thoroughly in continuing to investigate Casey. There is simply no good reason to keep going after Kronk or anyone else.

And of course, if people that believe she might be innocent also want to help them do that, then by all means, they should do that. If it can be miraculously proven that Casey didn't do it, I am all for that. SHOW ME THE PROOF THAT SHE DIDN'T DO IT. PLEASE, I BEG ANYBODY TO DO THAT. The reason so many people believe she did it is because there just isn't a SHRED of proof that she didn't, and she sure doesn't act like she's innocent or give anyone a reason to believe her one iota.

Plus, if she were innocent, SHE WOULD NOT STILL BE IN JAIL WITH A FLAILING DEFENSE. And hell, even her own defense just admitted that she probably killed Caylee but didn't dispose of the body, a total 360 from saying she's innocent and we'll see the proof at trial. The defense can go fishing all they want, I mean for criminee's sake they want freaking BENCH NOTES. They can't find proof in the ACTUAL forensics to set her free! All they want to do is character assassination and say it's "junk science". THAT'S ALL THEY HAVE!

The SA nor anyone else needs to hand walk the defense through this. They shouldn't just get an all access pass to whatever they want. The prosecution is STILL waiting for something, anything from the defense because they haven't received ZIP. Why aren't more people worried about that? Is that fair that the defense is holding back everything they have but the SA should just give them everything? How is that going to lead to justice here?

If people want real justice, they have to have faith in the ENTIRE system and stop villanizing ONE SIDE. No one is ever going to find justice in any case as long as he or she keeps blaming LE and SA for every little thing that goes wrong or isn't done right. I have total faith that they are dotting every T and every I and making darn sure they do this right the first time around. If anything should be of worry in this case, it should be the fumbling, bumbling, still got nothing defense - they are the ones doing a real disservice to Casey, not LE or SA.

And I do want her to have a competent defense because I want this whole thing to be fair. I don't want to hear years of whining about an incompetent defense or God forbid she actually gets her conviction overturned because of it. I do wish the defense would just buckle down and do their job for once because I am sick and tired of them delaying and not doing anything to help out Casey one bit. If they want to go through thousands upon thousands of tips and quit whining and delaying for once, I would be ECSTATIC to see them to do that even though they probably won't find anything. At least they'd be freaking WORKING for once.


All of this is IMO.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I totally agree!
The term "fishing expedition" (particularly when it pertains to KC's defense) is nothing more than a legal grasping at straws. The term "fishing expedition" is not a positive one in the legal community!!! The defense in this case is so utterly unfocused it boggles the mind. Imagine it---being this far into Capital Murder One case and still desperately looking for the non-existent "needle in the haystack" that will somehow prove exculpatory for KC. It reeks of desperation (just like the TES issue, as well)!!! All of this is just my opinion, of course......
 
  • #116
I believe I have seen discovery turned over in a motion from the defense.

Just an example:

JJ statement

Lb statement

Jk interview

Bs interview

So, there are things turned over, but hard to tell since they dont put in the docket who turned over the discovery. IMO

Like I said, I would agree to disagree to avoid circular discussion. Back to the topic at hand. I wonder when we will get this latest set of tips that the defense is going to get from Sa. I hope there is new information, especially anytime an officer was dispatched to the suburban dr neighborhood. I would like to also find out in the supplemental docs created by Le, about the grid cordinates at the top of the page on the radio log. IMO MOO
 
  • #117
I believe I have seen discovery turned over in a motion from the defense.

Just an example:

JJ statement

Lb statement

Jk interview

Bs interview

So, there are things turned over, but hard to tell since they dont put in the docket who turned over the discovery. IMO

Like I said, I would agree to disagree to avoid circular discussion. Back to the topic at hand. I wonder when we will get this latest set of tips that the defense is going to get from Sa. I hope there is new information, especially anytime an officer was dispatched to the suburban dr neighborhood. I would like to also find out in the supplemental docs created by Le, about the grid cordinates at the top of the page on the radio log. IMO MOO

Link?

Also the appropriate thread has been bumped for this discussion.
 
  • #118
I believe I have seen discovery turned over in a motion from the defense.

Just an example:

JJ statement

Lb statement

Jk interview

Bs interview

So, there are things turned over, but hard to tell since they dont put in the docket who turned over the discovery. IMO

Like I said, I would agree to disagree to avoid circular discussion. Back to the topic at hand. I wonder when we will get this latest set of tips that the defense is going to get from Sa. I hope there is new information, especially anytime an officer was dispatched to the suburban dr neighborhood. I would like to also find out in the supplemental docs created by Le, about the grid cordinates at the top of the page on the radio log. IMO MOO

As to the tips. It should be pointed out that they aren't "getting" them from the SA. As in the SA isn't dropping by JB's office to give them to him. The tips are ready and need to be picked up if I recall. It's been 48 hrs now since HHJP order the defense to get it done. Has there been any report of the defense going to pick them up?

*crickets*
 
  • #119
Well, I am thinking there is more. I can't see the defense putting in motions for something they already have. Thats my opinion. Makes sense.

I'd like to just explain/clarify something, and I am speaking from direct experience and first-hand knowledge. Motions are filed in court sometimes simply from a strategic standpoint only. They are not always factually based. I have followed this case from the beginning, and many of the defense's motions (IMPO) are done just for that reason...they are looking to buy time for themselves, their case and their client, and even though they know at the outset that their motion may have less than a snowball's chance in hell in succeeding on the merits.....it is successful in the sense that it just bought them more time.

Discovery, which is what the exchange of information between the two sides is...is often done to bury the other side in paperwork, keep them running around trying to answer x, y & z, even though they could care less about x, y & z.

Think about that. It's strategy!
 
  • #120
I read the docket last night and no where does it say the defense has yet to turn over any discovery. So, I can not take that as a statement of fact.

Furthermore, I see lots of supplemental discovery entries, but no reference to who put in the motion. So, I think some are from the defense and some are from the state.

It may just be wishful thinking that the defense has turned over no discovery, however, why would they turn over the bulk until they get the states discovery...Seems to be a circular argument at this point and I will agree to disagree. There is no evidence in my opinion that the defense has turned over no discovery. JMO

Since Marspiter just proved without a doubt that the defense has turned over no discovery, pretty much resolves the issue.
 
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