2010.11.03 Third party involved?

[Scamperoo]

On the amount of work to do and the 6 cans of paint;

What if Elisa did the dismembering herself and simply left 'packets' for her *associates* to take care of. (Much like in a drug operation, funny that.)

What if Elisa did the touching up herself during the day.

This would leave only picking up the pieces from the house, doing a little spot checking, and then dumping and returning cars left to do.

I am of the opinion that he was aware of everything, blood smells or at least it does when it reacts to bacteria on the skin, the iron and bacteria cause a smell that humans can pick up @ 5 parts per trillion which is as good as any hound dog. This is one of the few smells that humans can scent in such small amounts, human decomp is like this, the smell for us is intolerable and it can never seem to be got rid of.

For arguments sake if he saw nothing and heard nothing he sure as heck smelled something.
If you prick yourself and smudge the small bead of blood down your arm you will smell the chemical reaction commonly said to be metallic.

If you are dismembering someone that is just one of the smells you will be confronting. Urine and fecal matter too, it would take days to air the place out, in fact it would smell like an abattoir.

Sorry for being so graphic, I have no doubt he knew.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Not saying AB didn't have knowledge of what occured, if you read back I am saying (for the sake of argument) that he DID, but didn't do it himself, and didn't know it was going to happen before it was done.

Couldn't find a VERIFIABLE reference to a witness that AB and EB were spotted out at Oktoberfest, hoping these unverified reports become VERIFIABLE soon.

 

[Laddsy]

I am of the opinion that he was aware of everything, blood smells or at least it does when it reacts to bacteria on the skin, the iron and bacteria cause a smell that humans can pick up @ 5 parts per trillion which is as good as any hound dog. This is one of the few smells that humans can scent in such small amounts, human decomp is like this, the smell for us is intolerable and it can never seem to be got rid of.

For arguments sake if he saw nothing and heard nothing he sure as heck smelled something.
If you prick yourself and smudge the small bead of blood down your arm you will smell the chemical reaction commonly said to be metallic.

If you are dismembering someone that is just one of the smells you will be confronting. Urine and fecal matter too, it would take days to air the place out, in fact it would smell like an abattoir.

Sorry for being so graphic, I have no doubt he knew.

Well that would explain the toothbrushes, pillows etc that were found in one of the cars. They were not living in the house due to the smell.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Not saying AB didn't have knowledge of what occurred, if you read back I am saying (for the sake of argument) that he DID, but didn't do it himself, and didn't know it was going to happen before it was done.

Couldn't find a VERIFIABLE reference to a witness that AB and EB were spotted out at Oktoberfest, hoping these unverified reports become VERIFIABLE soon.

I am of the opinion that he was aware of everything, blood smells or at least it does when it reacts to bacteria on the skin, the iron and bacteria cause a smell that humans can pick up @ 5 parts per trillion which is as good as any hound dog. This is one of the few smells that humans can scent in such small amounts, human decomp is like this, the smell for us is intolerable and it can never seem to be got rid of.

For arguments sake if he saw nothing and heard nothing he sure as heck smelled something.
If you prick yourself and smudge the small bead of blood down your arm you will smell the chemical reaction commonly said to be metallic.

If you are dismembering someone that is just one of the smells you will be confronting. Urine and fecal matter too, it would take days to air the place out, in fact it would smell like an abattoir.

Sorry for being so graphic, I have no doubt he knew.

That may be true. However I wonder if EB dismembered only the amputated leg in order to disguise that it was Zahra. That would explain the one bone being found by itself that turned out to be hers.

The other remains could have been buried in the hole LE dug up and may have been somewhat intact.

If the leg was the only thing removed then the torso would be intact and there would be no cutting into the body to release urine or feces. And not all people who die pass urine or feces when they pass away.

I don't think this took as long as some may think. I don't think Zahra's body remained in the home for a great length of time. If all the dismemberment was done in the bathroom then Clorox could certainly cover up the smell. Especially if it was poured on full strength and not diluted. It takes a few hours before the body will begin to smell and it goes through the process at a slow rate at the start then begins to advance as the hours pass.

So I dont think Adam would have necessarily smelled the blood. He could probably still smell the strong smell of bleach though.

IMO

 

[Clue Hopper]

That may be true. However I wonder if EB dismembered only the amputated leg in order to disguise that it was Zahra. That would explain the one bone being found by itself that turned out to be hers.

The other remains could have been buried in the hole LE dug up and may have been somewhat intact.

If the leg was the only thing removed then the torso would be intact and there would be no cutting into the body to release urine or feces. And not all people who die pass urine or feces when they pass away.

I don't think this took as long as some may think. I don't think Zahra's body remained in the home for a great length of time. If all the dismemberment was done in the bathroom then Clorox could certainly cover up the smell. Especially if it was poured on full strength and not diluted. It takes a few hours before the body will begin to smell and it goes through the process at a slow rate at the start then begins to advance as the hours pass.

So I dont think Adam would have necessarily smelled the blood. He could probably still smell the strong smell of bleach though.

IMO

This is what I have been thinking for a very long time. Dismemberment does not mean the entire body. It could mean something as small as a toe.

 

[Carolina Girl]

Could it be they dismembered her leg to hide infection from neglect?

 

[Peliman]

While I can see a lot of thought went into this theory I'm not buying it.

Zahra was 10 going on 11 - supposedly brooding, recovering from a flu bug, sleeping / in bed - that would make AB not only a pizz poor parent, but neglectful too; to leave her home alone, all things considered. (They shouldn't leave a healthy child home alone.) Was she "grounded" because EF said she had been bad and sick that week, so not allowed out of her room to go with?

Here comes the spin, EB also claimed She, AB and Zahra went to the Oktoberfest Friday the 8th from 7-9PM. Was Zahra really unhealthy that evening or is EB spinning the "she was sick" story?

This is one thing Hickory Police did well, they separated the bakers and took statements. AB told them he last saw Z on Wednesday.

Because of this, I'm leaning toward EB's statement not being completely true. Maybe EB and AB went to the Oktoberfest together but I've not heard a peep of confirmation. According to AB's last seen Z's statements, Zahra wasn't at the Oktoberfest.

Yet EB would have us believe she was sick but healthy enough to attend the Oktoberfest.

Spin, spin, spin... I'm leaning to Z was not as ill as EB would lead us to believe.

 

[4BB]

I don't have all of the pieces to the puzzle together in my head but here are a few thoughts...

toothbrush and blanket were in vehicle because Adam was sleeping there. It was said that he was going to leave EB. Maybe their marriage was very rocky but he didn't want to displace Zahra yet again. Father of the year? Heck no. Maybe he really hadn't seen Zahra but assumed she was better off in her bed "since she was sick" and all.

I'm baffled but not willing to discount anything because I don't think it looks right. Heck, I never thought one person could kidnap 4 people, kill 3 by stabbing them and then lug them deep into the woods, up a tree and drop them down....but it happened.

 

[LCoastMom]

I am of the opinion that he was aware of everything, blood smells or at least it does when it reacts to bacteria on the skin, the iron and bacteria cause a smell that humans can pick up @ 5 parts per trillion which is as good as any hound dog. This is one of the few smells that humans can scent in such small amounts, human decomp is like this, the smell for us is intolerable and it can never seem to be got rid of.

For arguments sake if he saw nothing and heard nothing he sure as heck smelled something.
If you prick yourself and smudge the small bead of blood down your arm you will smell the chemical reaction commonly said to be metallic.

If you are dismembering someone that is just one of the smells you will be confronting. Urine and fecal matter too, it would take days to air the place out, in fact it would smell like an abattoir.

Sorry for being so graphic, I have no doubt he knew.

BBM - exactly, if not blood, when he walked into the house after they had been out together and the house reeked of bleach - wouldn't he have at the very least wondered what Zahra had been doing and why?

Seriously, is anyone that self-absorbed and/or dense - a few beers or not?

None of the options we've discussed (knowing what LE removed from the house) point to him knowing nothing - just not possible. :Benny_monkeysmilies = AB?

 

[KikiWanBaniki]

Respectfully snipped~

BBM - exactly, if not blood, when he walked into the house after they had been out together and the house reeked of bleach - wouldn't he have at the very least wondered what Zahra had been doing and why?

FWIW, if, as some have suggested, EB was using meth, IMO it might not have been that strange for AB to come home at night to a cleaning binge and the smell of bleach, or any number of other odd projects spurred by tweaker inspiration, though. JMO

 

[madeleine]

IMO NO
what he tells the 911 operator is......just bizarre.i don't buy the story.

 

[Kamille]

Here comes the spin, EB also claimed She, AB and Zahra went to the Oktoberfest Friday the 8th from 7-9PM. Was Zahra really unhealthy that evening or is EB spinning the "she was sick" story?

This is one thing Hickory Police did well, they separated the bakers and took statements. AB told them he last saw Z on Wednesday.

Because of this, I'm leaning toward EB's statement not being completely true. Maybe EB and AB went to the Oktoberfest together but I've not heard a peep of confirmation. According to AB's last seen Z's statements, Zahra wasn't at the Oktoberfest.

Yet EB would have us believe she was sick but healthy enough to attend the Oktoberfest.

Spin, spin, spin... I'm leaning to Z was not as ill as EB would lead us to believe.

I think the only time EB claimed that they had all attended the Oktoberfest was when whe was first questioned about the "kidnapping". Trying to make it look good as though they had all been quite happy as a family and had gone for a night out before those horrible kidnappers took her.

I don't think she is still claiming that they were there considering that would mean that they "found Zahra dead" sometime after 9pm on the Friday night, then AB dismembered her and disposed of her and the mattress and they cleaned up the scene before the 5am fire call. Not to mention that AB never got on board with that story it appears. I believe he claimed to have been working late right off the bat. He claimed to have come home and Zahra was in bed. He checked in her room, "thought he saw her in bed" but didn't disturb her due to a "stomach virus".

EB also claimed that Zahra had a stomach virus for two weeks prior to her being "found dead" so her stories are all over the place. No wonder LE determined right at the beginning that her stories were inconsistent. They never said that about AB that I'm aware of.

Sounds to me like EB was caught up in so many lies that she had no choice but to try to "co-operate" the best she could by telling half truths and tidbits of info and throwing someone else under the bus to save herself.

I do think that this all could have been accomplished on the Thursday/Friday and that AB could be unaware of what happened during those two days. I also think that EB could have either done this herself or had accomplices. I'm not sure that there was a particularily gruesome crime scene or dismemberment in that house. Somewhere else perhaps? I know what LE took out of the house based on EB's story, but that doesn't mean that they will find evidence in those drain traps. Other than those, what else did they take? Evidence from her bedroom which seems to indicate a possible crime scene there, but not necessarily the scene of any dismemberment.

MOO

 

[LCoastMom]

Could it be they dismembered her leg to hide infection from neglect?

Here's my problem with Zahra dying from natural causes - she had been through two battles with cancer - IMO she could have relapsed and become very sick, very quickly - an infection, a flu, could quickly turn to pneumonia - which for anyone with a chronic disease could turn fatal. Not suggesting this happened overnight, but within 1 to 2 weeks time she went from flu-ish to seriously ill. Which again would point to AB being completely uninvolved in Zahra's care or a co-conspirator in her death, no two ways about it.

Say she developed an infection and she passed away, this may have lead to child neglect charges, but IMO it would be unlikely for murder or even manslaughter - maybe not any charges at all, under the right circumstances - so why not call 911? Why go through all this - if there was no true crime against her?

Why dismember her, remove her mattress and bedspread, have her room light up like a Christmas tree from luminal, find some sort of matter buried in and spread all over the yard, spread her remains here and there, put evidence in dumpsters in three or more locations?

There has to be something that happened before she died, that at least EF believed needed to be covered up. MOO

 

[Clue Hopper]

All speculation......

I'm wondering if there could be some truth in the rape allegations. I'm not saying with those exact two men or anything like that. I mean in Z's bedroom. (I'm thinking not the first time. The reason for the removal of first mattress.) Then somewhere down the line something happened. Something so bad that it had to be covered up. (Excuse me for not going into detail it's hard to do.) AB was working late Thurs. night. The dismemberment went on in the bathroom. They cleaned up. Put something in the bed to look like Z. They hid the bags until he went to work on Fri. (I do not remember where it was said so I'm saying I'm going on rumor here.) On Friday's EB was quick to be there to pick AB up for his check. (I think she left Z home alone a lot. I have noticed lately a lot of people in my own area do this. :furious: ) So that meant that the Tahoe would be there Friday. They disposed of Z and everything involved. Friday EB does everything possible to keep AB from going home until late. Finally they get home and he just wants to sleep. She is still trying to figure out how to cover her steps. The fire and note. It didn't work. AB goes to work, comes home and is working in the yard. She comes up with the Z is missing thing. He is thinking she is nuts. She insists he calls now and tells them someone kidnapped Z. He is thinking EB is out of her mind. He isn't buying it. The cops come and he is thinking they are going to find Z. Never in a million years did he expect all of this to have happened.......Just thinking.

 

[Peliman]

I do think that this all could have been accomplished on the Thursday/Friday and that AB could be unaware of what happened during those two days. I also think that EB could have either done this herself or had accomplices. I'm not sure that there was a particularily gruesome crime scene or dismemberment in that house. Somewhere else perhaps? I know what LE took out of the house based on EB's story, but that doesn't mean that they will find evidence in those drain traps. Other than those, what else did they take? Evidence from her bedroom which seems to indicate a possible crime scene there, but not necessarily the scene of any dismemberment.

MOO

Hi Kamille and thanks. So you know I'm just trying to see clearly through the statements made and a workable time line. So questions I'm pondering, if it happened on thursday or friday and AB was away working. When did EB have the opportunity to use AB's work tahoe, since the dogs hit on it for human remains?

 

[LCoastMom]

Respectfully snipped~



FWIW, if, as some have suggested, EB was using meth, IMO it might not have been that strange for AB to come home at night to a cleaning binge and the smell of bleach, or any number of other odd projects spurred by tweaker inspiration, though. JMO

I was rolling off the OP that AB & EF were out together, leaving Zahra home alone or to the devises of 2 or more unknown assailants - who, in theory did this on Friday eve while EF & AB weren't home - not while EF was home doing who knows what (that again AB knows nothing about). So he / they would have come home to an odor of blood / body waste / bleach from clean-up and disposal.

Doesn't meth cause the user to drop like a rock? I wasn't aware that tweakers were inspired to do much of anything beyond crashing where they sit?

 

[Clue Hopper]

I was rolling off the OP that AB & EF were out together, leaving Zahra home alone or to the devises of 2 or more unknown assailants - who, in theory did this on Friday eve while EF & AB weren't home - not while EF was home doing who knows what (that again AB knows nothing about). So he / they would have come home to an odor of blood / body waste / bleach from clean-up and disposal.

Doesn't meth cause the user to drop like a rock? I wasn't aware that tweakers were inspired to do much of anything beyond crashing where they sit?

Meth is a type of speed. It makes it difficult to sit still, eat, or sleep. Sometimes it causes a person to do odd things too. A woman that lived upstairs from us in an apt. decades ago, painted a dresser among other things, with a paintbrush normally used for canvas and small bottles of craft type acrylic paint in one night. Along with her rantings out her bedroom window for someone to stop it or she would kill them. (No one was ever out there.)

 

[Bia.]

A person who has no guilt does not lie numerous times. And even if you were telling the truth, you would know the last time you saw your daughter 100%. You would also know if a massive crime scene was taking place in your own home. I can't imagine AB never slept at his own house nor took a shower.

He's just as guilty IMO.

 

[Kamille]

Hi Kamille and thanks. So you know I'm just trying to see clearly through the statements made and a workable time line. So questions I'm pondering, if it happened on thursday or friday and AB was away working. When did EB have the opportunity to use AB's work tahoe, since the dogs hit on it for human remains?

She would have had the opportunity to use it either Thursday or Friday night while AB was sleeping but one thing I noted from the warrants is that the cadaver dogs supposedly hit on ONE or both of the vehicles. It has never been positively stated that both vehicles (or either for that matter) tested positive for human remains.

MOO

 

[LCoastMom]

Meth is a type of speed. It makes it difficult to sit still, eat, or sleep. Sometimes it causes a person to do odd things too. A woman that lived upstairs from us in an apt. decades ago, painted a dresser among other things, with a paintbrush normally used for canvas and small bottles of craft type acrylic paint in one night. Along with her rantings out her bedroom window for someone to stop it or she would kill them. (No one was ever out there.)

Thank you for explaining this, I guess I never really thought about it - after reading what goes into that carp it amazes me that tweakers ever live past the first dose of that poison.

Is it coming down that causes the deep sleep that people are unable to be roused from? I was thinking of the breeder of baby Maggie Mae - the aunt saying she was unable to wake the monster, when she couldn't find the baby after she had supposedly been put to bed - but was "missing".