2010.11.18 - Hearing on Clarification of DNA Testing

[logicalgirl]

Ok...I thought I was understanding all this DNA stuff, but this confuses me. Wouldn't they then want the larger database?

I think the issue is if there is a match, then that information is also immediately available to anyone hooked up to those databases. And we know Baez doesn't want to be out in the open with his "master defense plan".

 

[drip~drop]

Remain calm. Judge Perry has got this! This may be some of the best money spent on this case. For the same reasons Mr. Ashton set out he was uncomfortable with a lab that did not have these specific qualifying bona findes, we must have the defense have the items with a lab that does. The judge , who has tried his share of murder cases, both as a ADA and as a Judge, surely knows the importance of this accrediation. Judge Perry is making it virtually impossible for this case to be overturned on appeal. The two thousand is nothing in comparison to the cost of trying this case a second time. He has his eye on that at all times. Very few pieces of the puzzle compare in importance to the items the baby was found with and the car. When we study this Judge we note that he brings with him to his hearings piles of appeals from the Supreme Court to quote from in his rulings. It seems to me he sits down with his pad and plays the role of the judge the appeal is in front of and imagines what and how, o n what issues would his ruling be vulnerable. Then he looks up examples, then decides on his ruling. This is what I assume they all do.
If money is to be skimped...it will be on lesser matters, I assure you. The judge is going to be abundantly fair, within the guidelines, but more generous leaning on these imperative pieces of evidence than , hmmmm, let's say the fishing expedition regarding the TES volunteers. Indeed he had already ruled that they could have the DNA testing done, so it truly was just a formality today that the amount was approved. In relative terms when you view it through the eyes of the judge this was not even a close call. Think of it this way,
if the PI s (one or more of whom have questionable tactics), are charging $40.00 per hour, they could use up two thousand in a very short time period. I would venture a guess that DNA work for a couple of weeks would require someone far more educated, indeed likely a staff of folks will work on this, rather than the one PI charging for his time, the folks at the lab are clearly more credentialed and use far more expensive equipment than Mort's shaky, poor quality video camera.
Perhaps Joypath can chime in, but imo the two thousand indeed sounded reasonable to me. The judge certainly thought so. If I were a Florida taxpayer, I'd much sooner want to pay 2K for the DNA on the clothes the baby had on and the bag she was found in, then to have these PI s making their troublesome phone calls.
So many other things are peripheral, the things with the remains are the nuts and bolts. Nothing could matter more than the defense having the opportunity to have them examined.

He knows what he is doing.

Remain calm.
Judge Perry has got this. I'd bet my life on it.

I am far, far more upset about the thousands and thousands of dollars the local, state even national law enforcement agencies had to spend and deplete resources and man hours on, all the while there were folks who knew that baby's body was just down the street. This matter is just perfunctory, it has to get done, it has to be done beyond reproach and the judge is making damn sure it will be. I take it back, never mind just remaing calm, be happy.

The big dawg is guarding the house and nobody is getting by him! Feel safe. Exhale.
Eleven minutes flat! Love, love , love this judge!!!

Thanks Nums for the hearing!

WESH Video Report:

Judge Perry's Approves Defense Request:
http://www.wesh.com/video/25842542/detail.html
__________________

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2010.11.18 - Hearing on Clarification of DNA Testing

Thanks for being a voice of reason TWA. I personally just get so frushtrated
with everything getting approved. Well, it seems like everything gets approved. I get frushtrated because to me, it's an open/close case.
BUT, the system must play itself out and all the innocent before guilty even when it's obvious, IMO "who done the deed.":banghead: oy.
imo :cow:

 

[drip~drop]

Whoa...is this actual proof that they ARE going to blame this on another family member? I mean I knew they were throwing mom and pop under the bus already, maybe Lee too, but wow. They're going THIS far? At least that's how I interpreted what Dr. Henry Lee said...

I'm not sure.
First I have to go look up this word "alleles ". I have no clue what it means.

 

[drip~drop]

I'm not convinced ICA knows who the bio dad is. I know she would rather be with a man, or at least any man who wasn't "on" to her than be at home with her parents. That kind of silence from her doesn't make sense. ICA loved to taunt her parents, but to give up a man and a life to do it - nah!

When one thinks about it, that's very possible if she was having multiple partners, along if she was "buzzed" and it was a one night-who was that guy again?- type of thing. :waitasec:

 

[drip~drop]

alleles

An allele (pronounced /ˈæliːl/ (UK), /əˈliːl/ (US); from the Greek αλληλος allelos, meaning each other) is one of two or more forms of the DNA sequence of a particular gene.[1][2] The word is a short form of allelomorph ('other form'), which was used in the early days of genetics to describe variant forms of a gene detected as different phenotypes.

Each gene can have different alleles. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) can result in different traits, such as color. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) will have the same result in the expression of a gene.

Most organisms have two sets of chromosomes, that is, they are diploid. Diploid organisms have one copy of each gene (and one allele) on each chromosome. If both alleles are the same, they are homozygotes. If the alleles are different, they are heterozygotes.

A population or species of organisms typically includes multiple alleles at each locus among various individuals. Allelic variation at a locus is measurable as the number of alleles (polymorphism) present, or the proportion of heterozygotes (heterozygosity) in the population.

For example, at the gene locus for ABO blood type proteins in humans,[3] classical genetics recognizes three alleles, IA, IB, and IO, that determines compatibility of blood transfusions. Any individual has one of six possible genotypes (AA, AO, BB, BO, AB, and OO) that produce one of four possible phenotypes: "A" (produced by AA homozygous and AO heterozygous genotypes), "B" (produced by BB homozygous and BO heterozygous genotypes), "AB" heterozygotes, and "O" homozygotes. It is now appreciated that each of the A, B, and O alleles is actually a class of multiple alleles with different DNA sequences that produce proteins with identical properties: more than 70 alleles are known at the ABO locus.[4] An individual with "Type A" blood may be a AO heterozygote, an AA homozygote, or an A'A heterozygote with two different 'A' alleles.

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele[/ame]

 

[Ssejors]

alleles

An allele (pronounced /ˈæliːl/ (UK), /əˈliːl/ (US); from the Greek αλληλος allelos, meaning each other) is one of two or more forms of the DNA sequence of a particular gene.[1][2] The word is a short form of allelomorph ('other form'), which was used in the early days of genetics to describe variant forms of a gene detected as different phenotypes.

Each gene can have different alleles. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) can result in different traits, such as color. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) will have the same result in the expression of a gene.

Most organisms have two sets of chromosomes, that is, they are diploid. Diploid organisms have one copy of each gene (and one allele) on each chromosome. If both alleles are the same, they are homozygotes. If the alleles are different, they are heterozygotes.

A population or species of organisms typically includes multiple alleles at each locus among various individuals. Allelic variation at a locus is measurable as the number of alleles (polymorphism) present, or the proportion of heterozygotes (heterozygosity) in the population.

For example, at the gene locus for ABO blood type proteins in humans,[3] classical genetics recognizes three alleles, IA, IB, and IO, that determines compatibility of blood transfusions. Any individual has one of six possible genotypes (AA, AO, BB, BO, AB, and OO) that produce one of four possible phenotypes: "A" (produced by AA homozygous and AO heterozygous genotypes), "B" (produced by BB homozygous and BO heterozygous genotypes), "AB" heterozygotes, and "O" homozygotes. It is now appreciated that each of the A, B, and O alleles is actually a class of multiple alleles with different DNA sequences that produce proteins with identical properties: more than 70 alleles are known at the ABO locus.[4] An individual with "Type A" blood may be a AO heterozygote, an AA homozygote, or an A'A heterozygote with two different 'A' alleles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele

Totally OT!

23 pairs of Chromosomes, 46 Chromosomes = Diploid

Well My son beats all you boring old Diploids any day with his 47th CHROMOSOME! WOOT! DS FTW!

he's a diploid +1 ?

lol ok on with the show

 

[logicalgirl]

alleles

An allele (pronounced /ˈæliːl/ (UK), /əˈliːl/ (US); from the Greek αλληλος allelos, meaning each other) is one of two or more forms of the DNA sequence of a particular gene.[1][2] The word is a short form of allelomorph ('other form'), which was used in the early days of genetics to describe variant forms of a gene detected as different phenotypes.

Each gene can have different alleles. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) can result in different traits, such as color. Sometimes, different DNA sequences (alleles) will have the same result in the expression of a gene.

Most organisms have two sets of chromosomes, that is, they are diploid. Diploid organisms have one copy of each gene (and one allele) on each chromosome. If both alleles are the same, they are homozygotes. If the alleles are different, they are heterozygotes.

A population or species of organisms typically includes multiple alleles at each locus among various individuals. Allelic variation at a locus is measurable as the number of alleles (polymorphism) present, or the proportion of heterozygotes (heterozygosity) in the population.

For example, at the gene locus for ABO blood type proteins in humans,[3] classical genetics recognizes three alleles, IA, IB, and IO, that determines compatibility of blood transfusions. Any individual has one of six possible genotypes (AA, AO, BB, BO, AB, and OO) that produce one of four possible phenotypes: "A" (produced by AA homozygous and AO heterozygous genotypes), "B" (produced by BB homozygous and BO heterozygous genotypes), "AB" heterozygotes, and "O" homozygotes. It is now appreciated that each of the A, B, and O alleles is actually a class of multiple alleles with different DNA sequences that produce proteins with identical properties: more than 70 alleles are known at the ABO locus.[4] An individual with "Type A" blood may be a AO heterozygote, an AA homozygote, or an A'A heterozygote with two different 'A' alleles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allele

LOL Drip~drop thanks for that. Er-umm-will there be a quiz later?:waitasec:

 

[joypath]

LOL! And I was going to address the restrictions on accessing CODIS!:truce:


:twocents:Let's just say that the lab in PA will be having great "fun" trying to get any "touch" DNA from these items and rest assured, while the cost/payment is a very reasonable amount, this lab will be expending MORE than THAT measly amount in testing just because of the high profile case! (ie: there will be (IMO, of course {:angel:for heaven's sake, who else's opinion could I have????}:angel more than ONE "punch" sample taken from each item to test!):dance:

 

[treeseeker]

Dennis Rader, aka BTK, was arrested after DNA obtained by warrant from a PAP smear his daughter had years prior closely matched the DNA found on BTK's victims. Rader was a POI but there was not enough evidence for an arrest. The daughter neither confirmed nor denied she consented to the use of the PAP smear. I suspect she did. This is along the lines of familial DNA use Dr. Lee was addressing, I think.

 

[kaRN]

Dennis Rader, aka BTK, was arrested after DNA obtained by warrant from a PAP smear his daughter had years prior closely matched the DNA found on BTK's victims. Rader was a POI but there was not enough evidence for an arrest. The daughter neither confirmed nor denied she consented to the use of the PAP smear. I suspect she did. This is along the lines of familial DNA use Dr. Lee was addressing, I think.

That is so wrong on so many levels I'm just shocked. She better have consented is all I can say.

 

[kaRN]

Whoa...is this actual proof that they ARE going to blame this on another family member? I mean I knew they were throwing mom and pop under the bus already, maybe Lee too, but wow. They're going THIS far? At least that's how I interpreted what Dr. Henry Lee said...

I think it means they're searching for anybody else but KC and not necessarily a family member. If they find touch DNA on the items from anyone but ICA great! If they find touch DNA from ICA, it won't automatically be linked to the database her DNA is already stored in, and won't be mentioned at trial. That's how I see it but I may be completely wrong.
If there is familial touch DNA on Caylees shorts or the laundry bag ICA stole from her parents I still don't understand what that proves. Caylee wasn't toilet trained so having touch DNA on her shorts from an adult who may have diapered her can be explained. So can Anthony touch DNA on the laundry bag be explained.
I really think the defense is just trying to find any evidence the SA may have missed and to discredit the whole case based on that.

 

[Dear Prudence]

If the defense's DNA tests on the shorts and laundry bag don't turn up any unidentified DNA they are really in a jam when it comes to DNA. If DNA is found that does not belong to an Anthony the defense doesn't want it to be identified. They want to be able to say it belongs to the mystery person or "invisi-nanny" that stole Caylee. Caylee was missing for 31 days and according to KC she was with Zanny, plus she claims Zanny babysat Caylee for over a year prior to that. One could expect to find Zanny's DNA or fingerprints on something beloning to Caylee.

No unidentified DNA or fingerprints have been found on the items tested that the family identified as possibly being in the possesion of Zanny the Nanny such as the DVD movies, the hair flat iron, or the inflatible mattress. The absence of any unidentified DNA says just as much if not more than KC's DNA being found on items.

 

[Wysteria]

Maybe it's via phone because HHJP is going to tell Mr. Baez the way it is and not have to worry about the cameras. I really think HHJP is at the end of his rope with JB. jmo[/QUOTE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*respectfully bolded by Wysteria*

My knowledge of the law is limited.
If HHJP is at the end of his rope; how does that relate to the manner in which the trial will progress?
His Honor would certainly need to conceal his feelings.
In additional, his rulings must be fair to both sides.
I do agree with your opinion.
I just hope that we are wrong.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Maybe it's via phone because HHJP is going to tell Mr. Baez the way it is and not have to worry about the cameras. I really think HHJP is at the end of his rope with JB. jmo[/QUOTE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*respectfully bolded by Wysteria*

My knowledge of the law is limited.
If HHJP is at the end of his rope; how does that relate to the manner in which the trial will progress?
His Honor would certainly need to conceal his feelings.
In additional, his rulings must be fair to both sides.
I do agree with your opinion.
I just hope that we are wrong.

He does not have to tolerate sloppy work,stupidity or incompetence on the part of Attorneys who have come to Court unprepared, and it is perfectly reasonable to express his opinion on the subject, and if that hurts Baez' feelings, then too bad.
That has nothing to do with his rendering fair decisions.
You can sleep at night secure in the fact that he has rarely (if ever) had a ruling overturned.

 

[joypath]

IF, and that is a HUGE "if", any viable DNA is found
1. presenting as the family line would render it moot for all the reasons stated above EXCEPT the denial of CINDY regarding knowledge of said shorts (or was it the t-shirt?...hmmmmmm might be the reason why they chose the shorts!)
2. denatured/or partial DNA can EASILY be "chatted away" by the historical indications of "touch" DNA and its presumed sensitivity
3. "foreign" DNA profile isolated by this private facility would NOT automatically be admitted for a search in CODIS/NDIS!
4. fear not all, this laboratory HAS been approved as a vendor laboratory for outsourced law enforcement samples and as such meets the rigid requirements of the FBI to enter their DNA analysis (via the law enforcement agency portal) into CODIS. {:furious:SMIRK: :furious:SNARK: TAKE that, JB with your convoluted biased laboratory personnel testing against the inmate!:furious:}>>>>can anybody GUESS :innocent:I'm :innocent:taking THIS insult personally????:angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel::angel:

I'm pleased that HHJP permitted the JAC to pay, ticked off that HHJP did NOT ream JB for AGAIN failing to follow court protocol and "notice" all parties thus avoiding this delay and so glad that the JAC rep go HIS dig in and ON THE RECORD about JB not performing the research in advising JAC about this facility in September when he accepted (snicker like JB had a choice instead of the Dutch Duo!) this laboratory! Again, esquire inept "Just Bumbling" acted like the rules of the system do not apply to either him or inmate anthony, aka "mz spechial"!:dance:

 

[Gnatcatcher]

I'm wondering what are the particulars of how the items are sent to this lab, under who's watch are they transported and maintained, how long will it take to do the testing, and to get the results, and who will transport the items back into safe care? I'm sure it's all going to be highly controlled, and I'm not worried about it, just wondering what sort of time line we're looking at here.

 

[tlcya]

@sleutherontheside and theworldaccording

I have been away from the Caylee threads for a while with other missing not yet found threads and saw that there was a new motion. I did my due diligence and read the whole thread to catch up with what I had missed about this.

That said, your posts alone told me what I needed to know.

I so appreciate both of you and your well thought out analysis on the Caylee forum.

:bow: :bow:

 

[LambChop]

Maybe it's via phone because HHJP is going to tell Mr. Baez the way it is and not have to worry about the cameras. I really think HHJP is at the end of his rope with JB. jmo[/QUOTE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*respectfully bolded by Wysteria*

My knowledge of the law is limited.
If HHJP is at the end of his rope; how does that relate to the manner in which the trial will progress?
His Honor would certainly need to conceal his feelings.
In additional, his rulings must be fair to both sides.
I do agree with your opinion.
I just hope that we are wrong.

Oh, I don't think it will affect the trial at all. The judge will just keep reminding JB that he is not during things according to procedures so that he can't say later he did not know. If he continues to defy the judge, JB may want to think about a career change after the trial. But that would just be my opinion.

 

[Nore]

He does not have to tolerate sloppy work,stupidity or incompetence on the part of Attorneys who have come to Court unprepared, and it is perfectly reasonable to express his opinion on the subject, and if that hurts Baez' feelings, then too bad.
That has nothing to do with his rendering fair decisions.
You can sleep at night secure in the fact that he has rarely (if ever) had a ruling overturned.

------- ----------
I agree. I think he is just tired of them f*rting around!!:banghead:

 

[ZsaZsa]

If the defense's DNA tests on the shorts and laundry bag don't turn up any unidentified DNA they are really in a jam when it comes to DNA. If DNA is found that does not belong to an Anthony the defense doesn't want it to be identified. They want to be able to say it belongs to the mystery person or "invisi-nanny" that stole Caylee. Caylee was missing for 31 days and according to KC she was with Zanny, plus she claims Zanny babysat Caylee for over a year prior to that. One could expect to find Zanny's DNA or fingerprints on something beloning to Caylee.

No unidentified DNA or fingerprints have been found on the items tested that the family identified as possibly being in the possesion of Zanny the Nanny such as the DVD movies, the hair flat iron, or the inflatible mattress. The absence of any unidentified DNA says just as much if not more than KC's DNA being found on items.

Maybe they're testing for squirrel DNA :innocent: