2011.06.11 Sidebar (Trial Day Sixteen)

[wenwe4]

So is the laundry hamper the same as the laundry bag or something totally different? When I think hamper, I think of a structured basket or heavy wicker type hamper in a closet.

the laundry bag is a canvas bag with a protective coating on the interior of the bag...it has a rigid metal ring at that top and handles.....

here is the relevant thread to the bag and a MUST READ IMO! Between the duct tape thread, the stain in the trunk thread and this one listed below....the incredible talents that have been involved in this case here @ WS for the past 3 years is evident. If any of you have wondered if you are @ the right discussion forum - I think you will agree that WS far exceeds most of the other references out there. :great:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99561"]2010.04.02 *SPECIFIC* Caylee's Position Inside Bags - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90039&page=36

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95915&page=46

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Exactly my theory in Dec. 2009 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Poll: What was the duct tape used for? and restated in Sept. 2010 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Defense to depose Dr. G
Hence the trash bag in the car. I think ICA took the trash out as an excuse to get out to the parking lot and check on Caylee...when she found her dead I believe she just tossed the trash in there with her...it was probably too far to walk to the dumpster. :doh:

Ahhh...good catch, Mom. I didn't even think of that. Quite possible.

 

[Tuffy]

It all goes back to consistent and immovable boundaries....this ICA was never taught boundaries in her behavior...she and CA are somewhat enmeshed and that is not healthy. IMO. Cindy never wanted to do the hard work of discipline and healthy boundaries. Sad for all involved...don't know if this played in to ICA's sociopathy or made it worse.

Yes, it does sound like the whole family (if their testimony can be believed!) constantly avoided confronting each other. They knew each other's lies, and pretended like they didn't. For example, Casey "bought" Lee's car from him. She made a couple of payments to him, then no more. They all went around calling it Casey's car still. Until, it suited Cindy to call the police. Then, it went to being Cindy's car, that Casey stole!

 

[Phoebeb]

Exactly my theory in Dec. 2009 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Poll: What was the duct tape used for? and restated in Sept. 2010 Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Defense to depose Dr. G
Hence the trash bag in the car. I think ICA took the trash out as an excuse to get out to the parking lot and check on Caylee...when she found her dead I believe she just tossed the trash in there with her...it was probably too far to walk to the dumpster. :doh:

Also, there is testimony that ICA always went outside to make or take phone calls. Another excuse to casually check on Caylee.

 

[wyome]

For the most part, I've tried to stay away from forming any theories regarding what I think happened. But the past 2 days, I've found myself wandering more and more into that territory. Last night, I landed on a string of thoughts that made perfect sense to me.

Why would you chloroform a child, duct tape her mouth, and possibly her hands as well? If you are going to kill a 2 year old by smothering them with duct tape, why would you need to make chloroform (not an easy process) and use that to subdue them. Cough syrup would work just fine. That's a question I've come back to every single time I've tried to figure out what might have happened here. The chloroform searches were done in March. Caylee died in June. You don't click on a recipe for chloroform 84 times to learn how to make it in March, and then actually make it (not refreshing your memory on how to make it) 3 months later. I believe ICA actually made the chloroform in March or early April. So, if Caylee didn't die until June, what was ICA doing with this chloroform?

We know that there was a loose hair with a death band found in the trunk of the car. Caylee's body was triple bagged. How did that hair end up loose in the trunk of the car? How did decomp fluid leak through 2 trash bags and a laundry bag with waterproof liner, onto the liner of the trunk itself? I don't think it did.

I think ICA was using chloroform as a "babysitter". She wanted to meet up with TL the night Caylee went missing. There were numerous rapid calls to GA and CA late that afternoon. ICA couldn't find a babysitter, imo. She chloroformed Caylee, duct taped her mouth to keep her silent if she woke up, possibly bound her hands with duct tape so she couldn't remove the mouth duct tape if she woke up, and put her in the trunk of her car. Later, she goes to check on Caylee, and Caylee is dead. This fits with both Dr. Vass' and Dr. Hackett's testimony regarding the body being in that trunk very close to time of death. It also fits with why we might find a loose death band hair in the trunk (she's not bagged), and decomp fluid on the liner.

So, if Caylee died in the trunk of the car, why do cadaver dogs hit on the backyard? I didn't have a clue. Until I recalled Forgey's testimony on cross. He states that a person could cut their finger, bleed on the ground, the blood begin to decomp outside the body...dogs would hit on that. Aha! After ICA borrows the shovel to bag Caylee (in the trunk of the car), she goes into the backyard to wash the shovel. Where does she do this? Where cadaver dogs hit.

That's the most reasonable theory I can come up with at this point, but I think it makes sense.

ETA: More to the point, I think this is exactly the scenario the state is trying to show with all this evidence. Big lightbulb moment for me.

If Casey was using chloroform as a babysitter, do you believe that she was routinely ducttaping and binding her? If so, wouldn't duct tape leave a red whelt on the skin for people to notice? Wouldn't Caylee remember the trauma and pain involved in waking up this way, and fear her mother if this had been done before? Wasn't the duct tape wrapped around her entire skull all around the hair?

Or do you think chloroform was used routinely to "make her sleep" while she did other things around the house, and she taped and bound this one time? What do you make of all the duct tape in the hair?

 

[Tipstaff]

Are George and Cindy on the Defense witness list? Gosh if they are imagine how much more crazy things will become.

 

[Marina2]

No one would put a child in the trunk of a car, in the Florida heat during the middle of June, chloroformed and duct taped, as a means of babysitting. Anyone who did that would expect no less than a fatality.

 

[Tuffy]

What I learned through testimony was that the "nanny" story was used while Caylee was still alive. A year and a 1/2 prior to her death, if I'm not mistaken.

Am I mistaken in thinking I heard that? :waitasec:

Sorry, I didn't say that right. I meant, the story of "hey Casey, where's Caylee?"

"Oh, she's with the nanny."

That didn't start until after Caylee was dead. I don't think we have anyone saying that they saw Casey without Caylee before then, and Casey claimed she was "with the nanny."

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Ohhhhh. Kid stuff has prevented me from being here some of the science days and I saw a pic of it on TV the other day when rushing out and thought they had covered it. I can't imagine why it wouldn't have been mentioned, either by the state if positive or the defense on cross if negative. I wonder why it hasn't been mentioned. Thanks!

My guess is that the state didn't bring it up because it tested negative, and the defense doesn't want to draw any more attention to the shovel than they have to. I'm sure the DT would like the whole shovel borrowing testimony to disappear.

On a side note, I know very little about Roy Kronk, but did take note of the fact that the state seemed to go out of their way to avoid using him during Friday's testimony. Couldn't help but wonder why. Perhaps he is a shakey witness, and they opted not to use him if they could bypass him (which they did), or perhaps they simply didn't want to introduce him to the jury first. I don't know. Interesting, though.

 

[wenwe4]

I have always wondered if the red and white Disney bag wasn't used to cover the shovel first - therefore no decomp fluids left on the shovel.....the bag was washed in the flood waters subsequently.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

If Casey was using chloroform as a babysitter, do you believe that she was routinely ducttaping and binding her? If so, wouldn't duct tape leave a red whelt on the skin for people to notice? Wouldn't Caylee remember the trauma and pain involved in waking up this way, and fear her mother if this had been done before? Wasn't the duct tape wrapped around her entire skull all around the hair?

Or do you think chloroform was used routinely to "make her sleep" while she did other things around the house, and she taped and bound this one time? What do you make of all the duct tape in the hair?

My feeling is that ICA probably tried to pawn Caylee off on friends or family for the greater part, and only resorted to the trunk when she couldn't accomplish that. Not often, I assume, since CA and GA (and I think one of her friends?) took Caylee quite often.

I'm having a difficult time discerning where exactly the duct tape was positioned on the body. I don't have the benefit of picture to guide me (thank god the jurors CAN see these pics). I think during decomp, it would surely have moved...skin slides down. Plus flooding, animal disturbance, hard to say where exactly this duct tape actually was, apart from around the skull and attached to mat of hair.

I really can't offer more than that. Wish I could.

 

[Belinda]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but after reading the trial threads of the last couple of days, I am afraid she will have her probable conviction overturned. Her attornies are doing such an incredibly bad job that I'm afraid she will be able to claim incompetent counsel and get a new trial. The DT is just pitiful and embarrassing. Does anyone else see that coming? It would suck to have to redo the whole thing, but that is where I think we may be headed.

 

[Phoebeb]

No one would put a child in the trunk of a car, in the Florida heat during the middle of June, chloroformed and duct taped, as a means of babysitting. Anyone who did that would expect no less than a fatality.

True. So maybe ICA used the duct tape for the first time the night of June 16th for her date with TL, all the while knowing that Caylee was dying in the car - ICA and TL spent the next day in bed IIRC. Surely she knew Caylee would be dead.
Maybe on the 16th ICA became enraged and pitched a hissy fit a la: "I didn't want this baby in the first place, now Mom and Dad won't help me by babysitting, screw it, I'm not letting Caylee interfere with this wonderful new relationship I have with Tony, they can all just KMA, I'm ending this all right now, what about ME?, no one thinks about ME!"

 

[Mountain_Kat]

On the 18th ,the neighbor saw ICA's car backed into the garage. She borrowed the shovel. I think that's when Caylee was bagged up (hard to type ,poor baby) and somehow that's when decomp got in the back yard. Maybe she moved Caylee back there in an attempt to bury her,or maybe it was transfer from something she touched or moved.
Dogs have the most amazing sense of smell. Tracking dogs can follow scent from shed skin cells invisible to the naked eye.It would not take much decomp for a hit,IMO.
Also, this timeline matches the 2.6 day of the state of decomp found in the car. At each phase of decomp you have different elements present .It was determined that the decomp in the trunk was at 2.6 days.

That is exactly the conclusion I'm reaching, Miss J. Fits perfectly.

 

[Tuffy]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but after reading the trial threads of the last couple of days, I am afraid she will have her probable conviction overturned. Her attornies are doing such an incredibly bad job that I'm afraid she will be able to claim incompetent counsel and get a new trial. The DT is just pitiful and embarrassing. Does anyone else see that coming? It would suck to have to redo the whole thing, but that is where I think we may be headed.

Even if the prosecutors had to present their case again, Casey will still be convicted. I think even with a new DT, Casey would not get a jury that would overlook all the evidence against her, and find her "not guilty."

It would be awful, and terribly expensive to try this case twice. Even so, I think another jury would reach the same "guilty" verdict.

 

[Tuffy]

That is exactly the conclusion I'm reaching, Miss J. Fits perfectly.

My thoughts, too. I think that day was a failed attempt to bury a decomposing Caylee.

 

[Quiche]

Also, there is testimony that ICA always went outside to make or take phone calls. Another excuse to casually check on Caylee.

I think the majority of those outdoor phone calls during the 31 days were in order to have privacy while spewing her detailed lies to Cindy. She couldn't sit in TonE's and say she was in Jacksonville with JH, that she was attending weddings, that she was following Zanny in her car to the hospital, and so forth. jmo

 

[Mountain_Kat]

No one would put a child in the trunk of a car, in the Florida heat during the middle of June, chloroformed and duct taped, as a means of babysitting. Anyone who did that would expect no less than a fatality.

1. Casey Anthony does not strike me as all that bright.
2. I don't think she gave a rat's you know what about this child.

Ignorant parents, neglectful parents and parents that simply do NOT care about their children leave their children in cars in extreme heat with windows up all the time. Look at the statistics...staggering.

Judging from IVA's behaviour immediately following Caylee's death, I'd say she was just fine about her daughter being gone. More than fine. Happy. I don't know whether she intentionally killed this child or not, but I somehow doubt that. Doesn't seem planned at all. Plus, I can't see ICA doing anything that would be a big trouble FOR HER later.

JMO

 

[wyome]

My feeling is that ICA probably tried to pawn Caylee off on friends or family for the greater part, and only resorted to the trunk when she couldn't accomplish that. Not often, I assume, since CA and GA (and I think one of her friends?) took Caylee quite often.

I'm having a difficult time discerning where exactly the duct tape was positioned on the body. I don't have the benefit of picture to guide me (thank god the jurors CAN see these pics). I think during decomp, it would surely have moved...skin slides down. Plus flooding, animal disturbance, hard to say where exactly this duct tape actually was, apart from around the skull and attached to mat of hair.

I really can't offer more than that. Wish I could.

I appreciate your thoughts on this! I still have a hard time with the whole chloroform thing. I must admit, I cannot imagine someone like Casey having the mind or means to make the darn thing. Like someone mentioned before, with all the cold meds out there, I just don't get it.

The defense will most likely combat this 84 computer hits to be from another member of the household. I wouldn't doubt that George might take the stand and admit he was looking it up, and say that he would keep cleaning supplies in her car. He has a history in detailing cars. Will be interesting.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

My thoughts, too. I think that day was a failed attempt to bury a decomposing Caylee.

I considered that. But why, of all places, in your own backyard? Your parents backyard? The parents that, eventually, are going to start asking alot of questions about where their grand daughter is?

Doesn't make sense to me. But clean up in the back yard, along with the neighbors testimony about the shovel and the backing into the garage, that makes perfect sense to me.

JMO