2011.06.11 Sidebar (Trial Day Sixteen)

[Tipstaff]

True. So maybe ICA used the duct tape for the first time the night of June 16th for her date with TL, all the while knowing that Caylee was dying in the car - ICA and TL spent the next day in bed IIRC. Surely she knew Caylee would be dead.
Maybe on the 16th ICA became enraged and pitched a hissy fit a la: "I didn't want this baby in the first place, now Mom and Dad won't help me by babysitting, screw it, I'm not letting Caylee interfere with this wonderful new relationship I have with Tony, they can all just KMA, I'm ending this all right now, what about ME?, no one thinks about ME!"

ICA may have on occasion bedded Caylee down in the rear seat of her car. Possibly using cough syrup, etc. As Caylee got older maybe this didn't work any longer and things progressed. Makes me sick just thinking this.

 

[ynotdivein]

Mountain_Kat, I'm not sure if you've had time to peruse these threads (or if you want/intend to, as they would taint your mock-juror status!), but for future reference:


Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

and

The Duct Tape Match #3

Some top-notch sleuthing in these threads!

 

[ThinkTank]

Here's the screen captures of the two incidents of ICA flipping someone off as she cries. Edited to add that it was Dr. Fessel who found this in a video of Casey crying during the testimony on Friday.

This appears to be a deliberate hand gesture as opposed to a subconscious use of her fingers to wipe tears. She does this when Investigator Welch described where Caylee's skull was found, while LDB is questioning her. It looks like it was intentional towards LDB or the witness, or both. She appears to be angry that she is even having to sit and hear all this ... Caylee was NEVER intended to be found - IMO.

Notice that the Inmate does not duplicate this finger gesture when she has her unguarded meltdown on May 28th when Cindy left the stand and then hugged George. She wipes tears and never uses the "F.U." finger once.

http://www.wftv.com/video/28058178/index.html
RAW VIDEO: Angry Casey Cries As Mom...

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I have always wondered if the red and white Disney bag wasn't used to cover the shovel first - therefore no decomp fluids left on the shovel.....the bag was washed in the flood waters subsequently.

Never even thought of that! Although, when I saw the crime scene pics, I did wonder why on earth that bag might have been tossed there. So far, during trial, the bag hasn't been tied to ICA, so I don't even know if it's just random trash at this point. There's a school nearby...maybe it's trash that just blew over into this area somehow. But my gut feeling was that it's connected, so I started to get ahead of the testimony and ponder what it's significance MIGHT be. I didn't get far. Empty Disney bag. Why would ICA toss THAT out there? Did it once contain something? What could it have contained? Water bottles with syringe (ssssh, I'm not supposed to know about that)? Pooh blanket? No idea.

But if she put the shovel head into the bag before "scooping" (sorry guys), I could certainly see the need to dump the bag afterwards. Also might explain why tests on the shovel (if done at all), showed nothing.

Smart, Wenwe.

 

[wyome]

I considered that. But why, of all places, in your own backyard? Your parents backyard? The parents that, eventually, are going to start asking alot of questions about where their grand daughter is?

Doesn't make sense to me. But clean up in the back yard, along with the neighbors testimony about the shovel and the backing into the garage, that makes perfect sense to me.

JMO

I've always had this nagging thought that the shovel was used to bury something in the back yard...something that Casey didn't want to discard, whether for sentimental value or trophy kind of thing. Something she couldn't keep hidden in her room, but didn't want to discard with body. JMO

 

[Tipstaff]

I considered that. But why, of all places, in your own backyard? Your parents backyard? The parents that, eventually, are going to start asking alot of questions about where their grand daughter is?

Doesn't make sense to me. But clean up in the back yard, along with the neighbors testimony about the shovel and the backing into the garage, that makes perfect sense to me.

JMO

ICA could not have been rational in the immediate time period after Caylee died and like most murderers she made mistakes and maybe panicked somewhat.

But by evening she got herself together so she could be with TonE.

Her behavior for the 31 days speaks to premeditation.

 

[ThinkTank]

the Inmate intentionally shoots the "F.U." finger for the cameras, with her attorney's laughing support and assistance on April 1, 2011, and again on May 10, 2010 along with her attorney making the same hand gesture, and again on March 3, 2011

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Mountain_Kat, I'm not sure if you've had time to peruse these threads (or if you want/intend to, as they would taint your mock-juror status!), but for future reference:


Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released

and

The Duct Tape Match #3

Some top-notch sleuthing in these threads!

I think I'd be okay to look at the duct tape photos at least, don't you think? Jurors have seen this. If I'm the "mock juror", I have to see that too.

 

[Tipstaff]

I appreciate your thoughts on this! I still have a hard time with the whole chloroform thing. I must admit, I cannot imagine someone like Casey having the mind or means to make the darn thing. Like someone mentioned before, with all the cold meds out there, I just don't get it.

The defense will most likely combat this 84 computer hits to be from another member of the household. I wouldn't doubt that George might take the stand and admit he was looking it up, and say that he would keep cleaning supplies in her car. He has a history in detailing cars. Will be interesting.

She would be on video at the pharmacy/Target etc. buying this stuff on a regular basis and the State would have those videos no matter how hard they would have to search the stores etc. Think of the Target video we knew everything she purchased.

 

[Quiche]

I've been a little confused why KC, after having Caylee in the car for a couple of days, would walk all the way around to the other side of the house to set her down... then I realized this was the side of the house with the shed that held all those shovels. I think KC only borrowed the neighbor's shovel when she couldn't access that shed. Yep, she was going to bury her.

Now, in getting the already very decomposed body all the way around the house, I imagine she'd have put her in that laundry tote as it's the easiest to carry. Then, when the burial idea didn't pan out, she completed a secure bagging and returned her to the car. I believe she hauled her around for a couple more days trying to figure out what to do, then on a f-ing whim, she threw her into those woods.

All jmo.

 

[ynotdivein]

I think I'd be okay to look at the duct tape photos at least, don't you think? Jurors have seen this. If I'm the "mock juror", I have to see that too.

LOL but the poor jurors haven't had the additional benefit of the sleuthing, re-sleuthing and sometimes un-sleuthing that went on in those threads! Then again, they will likely be able to view the actual items, so that kinda balances out. Curious to hear your thoughts when you've reviewed!

(Hands MK a rappelling harness, rope, and headlamp, and sends her off to explore...)

 

[MissJames]

I hate you, Miss J. You have NO idea how tempted I am to read that! :banghead:

:floorlaugh: :great:

Most of the "new" theories and questions coming up now have been discussed ,dissected ,sleuthed and regurgitated on WS, ad nauseum.

We were trained to provide links for any facts stated,which has fallen by the wayside,due to the sheer volume of posts coming in, IMO.

I hate seeing so much misinformation being bandied about,so I will do my best to provide links to what we know are facts.

One fact I can state is, in the last 3 years the defense has looked for a LIVE Caylee,insinuated or outright stated IN COURT,that others were responsible for Caylee's death (Jesse Grund,for one was investigated at length by the defense) , and never provided anything to suggest this was an accident.

There is a long history of sleazy players on the DT like Todd Black (an alias ) and a lawyer who had to withdraw after he was disbarred or suspended in another state. Turns out he "donated" $70,000 dollars to ICA's defense. ICA sold pictures and videos OF CAYLEE to ABC news for $200,000 dollars to fund this amazing defense.

The jurors will never know a lot of this ,but most of us at WS do.

 

[Jo in Calif]

My guess is that the state didn't bring it up because it tested negative, and the defense doesn't want to draw any more attention to the shovel than they have to. I'm sure the DT would like the whole shovel borrowing testimony to disappear.

On a side note, I know very little about Roy Kronk, but did take note of the fact that the state seemed to go out of their way to avoid using him during Friday's testimony. Couldn't help but wonder why. Perhaps he is a shakey witness, and they opted not to use him if they could bypass him (which they did), or perhaps they simply didn't want to introduce him to the jury first. I don't know. Interesting, though.

The state has no reason to use Roy Kronk as a witness, he had nothing to do with Caylee's death or disposal, the state has already presented to the jury, their theory as to Cayleey's death and disposal.
Cayleey's body was not in the trunk when Casey abandoned the car, body already disposed of.
Defense is going to put Roy Kronk on the stand and question him, state will kill the defense on their cross.
Roy Kronk was merely the person who discovered the remains, nothing more.

 

[MissJames]

the Inmate intentionally shoots the "F.U." finger for the cameras, with her attorney's laughing support and assistance on April 1, 2011, and again on May 10, 2010 along with her attorney making the same hand gesture, and again on March 3, 2011

O,please make this a full page shot in your book! You are awesome !

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Okay, can't see anything but pixels with respect to how the duct tape was found in relation to the skull. (Frustrating!) But oddly enough, JB's pictionary game, hilarious as it was, actually helped me out a bit. I now know the skull was found face down. Mat from hair on the soil, duct tape above that, mandible on duct tape and slightly to the side of the hair mat, skull on top of mandible. I think I'm correct when I say the duct tape was no longer attached to the skull, because there was no longer tissue for it to attach to. What held the duct tape to the skull (when found) was the hair mat. Otherwise, the tape would have fallen off (decomp, flooding, etc.). If I understood the anthropologist that did the video correctly, he said roots growing in the hair mat could have held the mandible in place, but when pressed by JA, agreed that the hair mat would have first had to slide down during decomp in order for roots to have grown there in the first place, so until that could happen, the only thing that could possibly have held the mandible to the skull would have been the duct tape.

So far so good.

Now, I have seen the pic of the duct tape after it was removed from the skull. I paid particular attention to the fact that the ME had to cut the hair mat in order to remove the duct tape in one piece, so I assume the circular appearance of the tape would be explained by the duct tape (at the time the body was found) being lifted carefully from around the skull...the way you would remove a mask from a skull, sort of. So, I think I can assume that, when the body was found anyway, this duct tape encircled the skull. But the sticky part of the tape had apparently separated from the fabric part, so not all of this "circle" is sticky tape. At least, that's my impression.

Geez...without an actual photo of the skull with tape on it, I'm flying blind here! I don't know that I will ever be able to say whether or not this tape was wrapped completely around Caylee's dead prior to her death.

ETA: Can't say it really matters though, it was attached to the skull of this body. No good reason for it to have ever been there.

 

[ynotdivein]

MK we can probably take this over to one of the duct tape threads. But essentially, the three that were wrapped around the face were between 7.5 and 9.5 inches long IIRC. They would not, as CM so eloquently demonstrated with his swirly finger, have wrapped entirely around Caylee's head. They remained in place (and held the mandible there) by a very few points of contact and with the help of the roots growing through the hair mat.

 

[MissJames]

My feeling is that ICA probably tried to pawn Caylee off on friends or family for the greater part, and only resorted to the trunk when she couldn't accomplish that. Not often, I assume, since CA and GA (and I think one of her friends?) took Caylee quite often.

I'm having a difficult time discerning where exactly the duct tape was positioned on the body. I don't have the benefit of picture to guide me (thank god the jurors CAN see these pics). I think during decomp, it would surely have moved...skin slides down. Plus flooding, animal disturbance, hard to say where exactly this duct tape actually was, apart from around the skull and attached to mat of hair.

I really can't offer more than that. Wish I could.

(Big sigh) Do you know how wide ONE strip of duct tape is ? ONE strip can cover the nose and mouth of an adult . There were THREE strips,not directly on top of one another,so the three create an even wider strip. Imagine Caylee's tiny face and think of this in another way. How could that wide strip of THREE pieces of duct tape NOT cover her mouth and nose. Placing it all the way to the top or all the way to the bottom,it would still cover her mouth and nose, IMO.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

:floorlaugh: :great:

Most of the "new" theories and questions coming up now have been discussed ,dissected ,sleuthed and regurgitated on WS, ad nauseum.

We were trained to provide links for any facts stated,which has fallen by the wayside,due to the sheer volume of posts coming in, IMO.

I hate seeing so much misinformation being bandied about,so I will do my best to provide links to what we know are facts.

One fact I can state is, in the last 3 years the defense has looked for a LIVE Caylee,insinuated or outright stated IN COURT,that others were responsible for Caylee's death (Jesse Grund,for one was investigated at length by the defense) , and never provided anything to suggest this was an accident.

There is a long history of sleazy players on the DT like Todd Black (an alias ) and a lawyer who had to withdraw after he was disbarred or suspended in another state. Turns out he "donated" $70,000 dollars to ICA's defense. ICA sold pictures and videos OF CAYLEE to ABC news for $200,000 dollars to fund this amazing defense.

The jurors will never know a lot of this ,but most of us at WS do.

BBM

And that is exactly the reason I haven't read through any of these threads. I've picked up a few things just on the sidebar thread that I wish I hadn't read. For instance, people kept stating over and over that the duct tape covered Caylee's mouth AND nose. I believed that to be true. But then I listen to evidence in court, and no...that is not an established fact. No one who has given evidence can state with any certainty that the duct tape ever covered the nasal cavity of this child. COULD it have? Yes. Could it NOT have? Yes. So, to me, it's meaningless since I can't say one way or the other.

I think it might frustrate some people when I won't go back and read everything WSers have dug up (and trust me, I'd love to!), but if I'm going to continue to play at being a mock juror, I have to avoid all this misinformation and speculation. Otherwise, I might as well not do it at all, you know?

 

[fifteen89]

He started out trying to help by posting KC's bond. Then the next thing we know he's the bad guy - CA kicks him out.
Whatever reason LP had, the minute CA thought he wasn't playing according to her program all 'h' broke loose. She takes the gift horse down. :waitasec::crazy::waitasec:

Then he has nothing to do so he begins a search at Blanchard Park and that pizzes everyone off. Why, I'm not sure.

He had a funny exchange with Dr. Drew and Mark, the talking head lawyer, on Dr. D's show yesterday. He called Mark 'grasshopper'. It was funny and in good fun.
I like Dr. Drew. He has no agenda, only wants to understand what's going on. Then they passed around a white cowboy hat.
LP definitely won the looks good in cowboy hat contest - it's genuine on him. Mark and Dr. Drew were laughing at themselves in the white hat.

I saw that show too. The thing about LP is he wants it both ways: his 30 years (or however long he says) experience is supposed to make people respect him, accept his expertise etc. But he's the guy who bailed Casey out when I believe most people could see all of Casey's lies for the lies they were. And imo most people already believed Caylee was dead.

So where does that leave LP's 30 years of experience??? His experience told him Casey had left Caylee with someone and they ran off with her and now Casey was afraid/embarrassed to tell people what happened. Say whaaattt???

As for Dr. Drew, I've never watched his show - his rehab show or his talk show on HLN. But in covering THIS case, he's out of his league. imo he and Joy Behar should leave the coverage to those with a law degree that know the history of the case. It seems to me he's jumping in when the trial begins and trying to hit the ground running. It's way too complicated with all Casey's lies and imaginary people for that to be possible.

Mark Eiglarsh is no 'grasshopper'. He's been around this case from the beginning. He's certainly not going to learn anything from LP. I think he sees LP for exactly what he is.....someone who enjoys the spotlight whether he has anything of value to say or not. moo

 

[bayouland]

I still think that GA either saw Caylee in the trunk that day (gas can incident) or caught ICA when she was trying to bury her in the yard. I'm feel certain he told her he was having no part of it but would not tell her mother (which he didn't do until much later) or the cops. I think the drowing story came from ICA telling this to her father. What daughter would admit to her father that she killed her child???

Afterwards, ICA dumped first the body and then the car. I don't feel GA had anything to do with this but I firmly believe that he knew.

JMO