2011.06.18 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-Two)

[Concerned Papa]

Every time I've pondered the logic of an accidental death, I keep running into the same obstacle of multiple layers of duct tape wrapped around this baby's face.

I can't get one inch past that.

 

[Anadarko]

Okay, so I left to go out of town Friday afternoon and had to read all of what was going on Friday and Saturday. Thanks to all who posted! I just watched the cross of the Bug Dude and Spitzer, I must say I am now in the category of loving JA! Couldn't quite see the appeal before, but his masterful annihilation of these two witness has made me a BIG fan!:blushing:

I have to admit, I've watched it all twice! JA is fantastic, as is LDB.

O/T - I love your avatar. From one of my fav Chris Farley skits!

 

[logicalgirl]

Didn't Dr. G also state Caylee died from the chloroform, duct tape over her mouth and nose or suffication from being inside 2 black trash bags?

Yes, she did. I didn't add that because the question I was asked was about the duct tape is all. LambChop, I hope you are watching the trial recap this week currently playing on HLN. Don't know if they will actually play parts of Dr. Spitz, but I hope you will see it somewhere.

Drat - not a complete Dr. Huntington but good enough, and no Dr. Spitz. But no way am I watching Dr. Dreary if that's who comes on.

 

[Maia]

Ok see? That makes a tremendous difference (to me)

I just now saw this post/ read this. I should have edited to add it to my previous post where it would have fit in context. But I gather that all you guys get the idea.. so....

yes, the words distinguish something... still looking for testimony.

I'm leaning toward homicide. Altho at times, I've pondered accident-gone-wrong, but that depends on the nature of the "accident" ...

...meaning that a swimming/drowning accident, for example, (imo) is vastly different morally, legally, in the eyes of God, than an "accident" that goes wrong when one sedates their child in a cartrunk for baysittinh/partying convenience. (horror) and it kills me to type those words.

:seeya: Hi, Kant. I forgot the link to the autopsy report and went back and added it to my post. PLEASE beware...it is graphic, but , like I said in my post the info you really want to see is on the 1st page. Hope it helps.

 

[Oldsoul2]

I have a theory that really enlighten me when Dr. Spitz took the stand. I haven't read through this thread so I will apologize in advance if someone has already posted this. He testified that the tape had to have been put on after decomposition had already occurred because the tape would have stuck to the skin which would have decomposed and would not be present when he received the skull. In fact the tape was still present stuck to the actual skull. It then hit me. He was absolutely correct and it now makes sense. My theory about what happened from day one was that she wanted to make this look like a kidnapping or missing child case and hoped it would fall through the cracks, if they found the body, it would have been possible that the "kidnapper" had killed the child and disposed of her...hence the zanny story etc...so when Caylee was given too much chloroform and died, she must have panicked and didn't know where to put her, in the backyard at first, than in the trunk, then figuring out what she is going to do all the while the body is decomposing. She finally decided to put the duct tape before she actually put her in the final destination so that it was made to look like someone actually killed her. So, Caylee didn't die of asphyxiation and that is true, she died from overdose and the tape was the cover. Baez thought he had a homerun and mason made him repeat this several times but this makes it more obvious as to what really happened IMO. This means premeditation.

 

[Leila]

His Honor, Belvin Perry stated last week that he anticipates the jury getting this case for deliberation either on Saturday, June 25th or Monday, June 27th. If you look at a calendar, Friday of that week is July 1st and the beginning of a long holiday weekend. I think HHBP intends on trying to send the jury into deliberations on the schedule he's given with the hopes of a verdict before the 4th of July weekend.

That means that in the next 6 or 7 days we'll see the defense conclude their case, the state do their rebuttal, and closing arguments.

Is anyone else getting very antsy about what this coming week will bring? Will the defense put KC on the witness stand???? Who do you think the defense will put on the stand after their expert testifies on Monday? Roy Kronk? George? Cindy? Lee? Jesse Grund?

Who will the state put on the stand in their rebuttal? I think they will put Dr. Garavaglia on the witness stand again to rebut what Dr. Spitz testified to.

What are your thoughts on this coming week?

 

[GetSmart]

I had the same thought as you and can't find the words either.. How did she do this with such precision as to never have her wake up and make a scene.

Unless she kept checking on her

Ok here is a thought I just had..what if she had chloroform on rag or something under the duct tape ..ICA thinking well this will keep her asleep if she just keeps breathing it .. and with all the decomp and flood it washes away

 

[GetSmart]

This also makes complete sense.

Was Caylee at an age where she could have tried to tell someone that mommy was doing bad things that scared her "in the car" or whatever words that would be developmental applicable? or do we then get into an amnesia situtation in which Caylee couldnt recall no matter haow horrifiying (which seems to speak somewhat to the possible use xanax, imo) (re possible amnesia on the "dosing" episodes)

But dangit I cant see Casey getting it so "right" (clearly not the word Im looking for) that she'd not under-dose her and have Caylee wake up screaming, and alerting passers-by (OH THE RISK FACTOR THERE)

or over dose and killing her.. Im just throwing things out there to hear responses here bc that I learn things that I havent thought of. All good food for thought.

hugs

Great point there..i remember reading where Cindy said Caylee would cry if she woke up alone ..

 

[Maia]

His Honor, Belvin Perry stated last week that he anticipates the jury getting this case for deliberation either on Saturday, June 25th or Monday, June 27th. If you look at a calendar, Friday of that week is July 1st and the beginning of a long holiday weekend. I think HHBP intends on trying to send the jury into deliberations on the schedule he's given with the hopes of a verdict before the 4th of July weekend.

That means that in the next 6 or 7 days we'll see the defense conclude their case, the state do their rebuttal, and closing arguments.

Is anyone else getting very antsy about what this coming week will bring? Will the defense put KC on the witness stand???? Who do you think the defense will put on the stand after their expert testifies on Monday? Roy Kronk? George? Cindy? Lee? Jesse Grund?

Who will the state put on the stand in their rebuttal? I think they will put Dr. Garavaglia on the witness stand again to rebut what Dr. Spitz testified to.

What are your thoughts on this coming week?

:seeya: Hi, Leila. Yes, I, for one, am getting very antsy. As to the defense's next witness (after tomorrow's expert), I'm not sure, because so far, they haven't presented anything to support their OS...they've only been trying to diffuse the prosecution. I would really like to see them put ICA on the stand, but I don't think they will (hope I'm wrong on that).

I definitely believe Dr. G will be part of the rebuttal, but I think it will depend on what the defense does as to who else they may bring in.

As it stands now, IMO, the state has done an excellent job and presented evidence to support their OS...the defense, nothing yet, and I think the jury sees this as well.

 

[kant]

Every time I've pondered the logic of an accidental death, I keep running into the same obstacle of multiple layers of duct tape wrapped around this baby's face.

I can't get one inch past that.

Hi Papa, my dear -- long time no see.. no write.. no IM.. no call... no smoke signal or carrier pigeon heh heh

hugs, man.

I feel your words.

Also, however, if (ok even given a big 'if' depending on valid evidence as it may or may not be -- as of yet; IDK) if ...IF Caylee were already deceased when the tape was applied, Im not above believing that ICA would have done it in an attempt to contrive a backstory.

And imo taping her head/mouth/ would (in ICA's mind) constitute [ie "point to"] the evil kidnappers. But I do see your point.


.

 

[LambChop]

Yes, she did. I didn't add that because the question I was asked was about the duct tape is all. LambChop, I hope you are watching the trial recap this week currently playing on HLN. Don't know if they will actually play parts of Dr. Spitz, but I hope you will see it somewhere.

Drat - not a complete Dr. Huntington but good enough, and no Dr. Spitz. But no way am I watching Dr. Dreary if that's who comes on.

Thanks, Logicalgirl. I was able to watch some of Dr. Spitz on HLN at the airport on Saturday while waiting for my flight. But just when the going gets good, HLN cuts for a break......I'm glad to be home. lol

 

[sweetmop]

Every time I've pondered the logic of an accidental death, I keep running into the same obstacle of multiple layers of duct tape wrapped around this baby's face.

I can't get one inch past that.

I do the same thing... I try to think this could have been an accident "gone bad", and ica was too scared of what everyone would think, etc. so she came up with "her story".
But that duct tape, well there's no getting over it for me! You don't pile on 3 or 4 layers over your child's mouth and nose unless it's for the evil purpose to intentionally kill them. I so wish ica would just give it up, and tell the whole truth!
jmho.

 

[Mystic]

I have a theory that really enlighten me when Dr. Spitz took the stand. I haven't read through this thread so I will apologize in advance if someone has already posted this. He testified that the tape had to have been put on after decomposition had already occurred because the tape would have stuck to the skin which would have decomposed and would not be present when he received the skull. In fact the tape was still present stuck to the actual skull. It then hit me. He was absolutely correct and it now makes sense. My theory about what happened from day one was that she wanted to make this look like a kidnapping or missing child case and hoped it would fall through the cracks, if they found the body, it would have been possible that the "kidnapper" had killed the child and disposed of her...hence the zanny story etc...so when Caylee was given too much chloroform and died, she must have panicked and didn't know where to put her, in the backyard at first, than in the trunk, then figuring out what she is going to do all the while the body is decomposing. She finally decided to put the duct tape before she actually put her in the final destination so that it was made to look like someone actually killed her. So, Caylee didn't die of asphyxiation and that is true, she died from overdose and the tape was the cover. Baez thought he had a homerun and mason made him repeat this several times but this makes it more obvious as to what really happened IMO. This means premeditation.

hi Oldsoul2, my understanding is the tape was stuck to Caylee's hair at the point she was found... which previously was also stuck to the skin (now decomposed). It wasn't stuck to the skull, it was just laying across it as the skin was now gone :maddening:

I come to agree with premeditation now moreso then ever. If she wanted to make it look like there was a kidnapping she would have placed the body further away and then reported it. (she had a car and amy's money for gas) I don't for a minute believe she would have the stomach to touch Caylee physically after she murdererd her. The last time she saw her was while placing her in the bags. And I say that by her 1st reactions at trial of her decomposed body.

Athough I didn't put much thought in it previously as others posted she may have wanted to do the A's in... I've also come to now believe that given the opportunity and good reason (life insurance) she would done them in too.

 

[Leila]

with all the depo reading I've been doing, listening to the hearings, and now into the trial, I believe several days ago was the first time I've ever heard the prosecution believes little Caylee went into the bags with duct tape and chloroform while she was still alive.

I can't believe I've missed this fact for three years! Had anyone else not heard this for three years or is it just me being a :loser: - anyone?

I was surprised at this too. I always thought that Caylee was dead and Casey then put her into the various bags when she began to decompose.

But, if the state believes that Caylee was alive when she was put in those bags................it's no wonder that the state made this a death penalty case. This was a heinous crime of epic proportions!

 

[sweetmop]

His Honor, Belvin Perry stated last week that he anticipates the jury getting this case for deliberation either on Saturday, June 25th or Monday, June 27th. If you look at a calendar, Friday of that week is July 1st and the beginning of a long holiday weekend. I think HHBP intends on trying to send the jury into deliberations on the schedule he's given with the hopes of a verdict before the 4th of July weekend.

That means that in the next 6 or 7 days we'll see the defense conclude their case, the state do their rebuttal, and closing arguments.

Is anyone else getting very antsy about what this coming week will bring? Will the defense put KC on the witness stand???? Who do you think the defense will put on the stand after their expert testifies on Monday? Roy Kronk? George? Cindy? Lee? Jesse Grund?

Who will the state put on the stand in their rebuttal? I think they will put Dr. Garavaglia on the witness stand again to rebut what Dr. Spitz testified to.

What are your thoughts on this coming week?

Oh I am definately antsy!
I feel so like JA, I don't trust the DT and it worries me just what antics JB will attempt to pull! I know HHJB is on to him and waiting for the next trick!
I'm off tomorrow, but have to work every other day! Darn it!

 

[GetSmart]

OK, if being drugged and duct-taped was even SEMI-regular occurence, I am certain Caylee would have found a way to express that to her doting grand parents. She was already able to say quite a few words in her 2nd year of life - she could have expressed her reticence in going with mommy at any point, even non-verbally. But as far as I know, Caylee was always happy to go along with mommy wherever she went.

And I brought this up before but I was wondering how chloroform is administered. If it's as I imagine it to be (a soaked rag forcefully applied to the airways) then I would wager that this was the first time KC did this to her child, and she did this with the aim of killing Caylee, because Caylee sure as heck would have remembered such a traumatic incident upon waking up. I hope to God Caylee was unconscious as she began to suffocate from the duct tape and didn't know what happened as she slipped away.

OMG ...your post triggered a childhood memory of mine ...All this talk for 3 years and this is the first time I thought about this

When I was 6 I broke my arm and I remember being in the hospital and the nurse was asking me what is your favorite cartoon.. I replied Yogi Bear..and she said count to 10 (or something like that)and will have Yogi Bear dreams

So maybe it was something like that

 

[kant]

Ok, this is slightly off the beam here, but it wont be the first time for me....

Are any of my co-posters here bothered .... wait.... or rather did anyone notice that His Honor seems too flippant at times?

I realize we all are human and need levity so we dont go bonkers and our heads explode, but he is the JUDGE and on freakin TV.

He seems too glib at times for my feelings of poor little Caylee's memory.

I know we try to make each other smile at times HERE, but this is a CLOSED and CLOSE knit (spelling?) community. That is different imo.

Some of the judge's smirks and comments remind me sadly of the dude who was the judge at Anna's... cant think of her name... blonde... married the old dude... died after giving birth to a daughter.... Anna Nicole.... IDK... but he was disrespectful and flippant and it rubbed me so wrong.


sorry for the rant

That is all

.

 

[sweetmop]

Ok, this is slightly off the beam here, but it wont be the first time for me....

Are any of my co-posters here bothered .... wait.... or rather did anyone notice that His Honor seems too flippant at times?

I realize we all are human and need levity so we dont go bonkers and our heads explode, but he is the JUDGE and on freakin TV.

He seems too glib at times for my feelings of poor little Caylee's memory.

I know we try to make each other smile at times HERE, but this is a CLOSED and CLOSE knit (spelling?) community. That is different imo.

Some of the judge's smirks and comments remind me sadly of the dude who was the judge at Anna's... cant think of her name... blonde... married the old dude... died after giving birth to a daughter.... Anna Nicole.... IDK... but he was disrespectful and flippant and it rubbed me so wrong.


sorry for the rant

That is all

.

I think those reactions you've picked up may actually come from the Judge's displeasure in the way JB is conducting himself.
But, then again, I'm biased in my thoughts.I think this judge is wonderful, I just love him!!!

 

[Concerned Papa]

Hi Papa, my dear -- long time no see.. no write.. no IM.. no call... no smoke signal or carrier pigeon heh heh

hugs, man.

I feel your words.

Also, however, if (ok even given a big 'if' depending on valid evidence as it may or may not be -- as of yet; IDK) if ...IF Caylee were already deceased when the tape was applied, Im not above believing that ICA would have done it in an attempt to contrive a backstory.

And imo taping her head/mouth/ would (in ICA's mind) constitute [ie "point to"] the evil kidnappers. But I do see your point.


.

Greetings my friend. I understand the big IF in your thoughts, and who knows? This is their chance. They have center stage. Maybe they can show us something that I've never seen before.

I've seen many first degree murders attempted to be painted as an accident, but NEVER have I seen an accident attempted to be painted as first degree murder.

For me, this case has always been about 31 days and a roll of duct tape. For the past 22 days of this trial, I've seen nothing to change that.

 

[Americka]

Ok, this is slightly off the beam here, but it wont be the first time for me....

Are any of my co-posters here bothered .... wait.... or rather did anyone notice that His Honor seems too flippant at times?

I realize we all are human and need levity so we dont go bonkers and our heads explode, but he is the JUDGE and on freakin TV.

He seems too glib at times for my feelings of poor little Caylee's memory.

I know we try to make each other smile at times HERE, but this is a CLOSED and CLOSE knit (spelling?) community. That is different imo.

Some of the judge's smirks and comments remind me sadly of the dude who was the judge at Anna's... cant think of her name... blonde... married the old dude... died after giving birth to a daughter.... Anna Nicole.... IDK... but he was disrespectful and flippant and it rubbed me so wrong.


sorry for the rant

That is all

.

MOO - No, I don't. I see a man who carefully weighs his words prior to speaking. I see a man who spends his nights and weekends researching case law to prevent a mistrial because the defendant chose inadequate counsel. I see NO comparisons between Judge Perry and Larry Seidlin whatsoever. Flippant and disrespectful are two words I would never equate with him. :twocents: