33 souls on cargo ship missing in Hurricane Joaquin, October 2015

[Hiandmighty]

They also said conditions were harsh at times for the rescue divers. So I think it is also a general preference for concern for the living

 

[NSS]

As the niece of a recently retired Captain of such vessels, I have just a few observations.

He is a highly trained, extremely smart man. He is responsible for his vessel and his cargo (though his company execs have different priotities - time is money), My uncles priority was the safety of his crew, then his ship, and then his cargo. The sea is a very dangerous place even when not in bad weather. It is possible that by the time the storm was intensifying (under 3 hours I believe) it was safer to go through it than attempt to change course through it (extending the time in it). These huge vessels don't turn on a dime and don't have brakes.

Although the Captain made the decision to sail, he would have been making decisions constantly after they hit the initial bad weather, they don't have the luxury of woulda, shoulda, coulda. New choices are made using the current situation, had the engine not cut, they could possibly have made it out the other side or at least bought enough time to alter the course (also a lengthy procedure in such a large vessel).

Imagine a car and a huge wide load vehicle in the path of a tornado. The car can turn around and high tail it away, the larger vehicle may have to travel many miles before there is a suitable place to turn, he is slower than the storm.......does he slow down and hope the tornado is ahead of him, or speed up and hope it arrives behind him?

Even with the best information available, these guys and gals risk life and limb on every voyage, the Captain was unlikely to be on a suicide mission. All JMO.

 

[Hatfield]

Its becoming clearer that the Captain purposely went towards it with the plan to scoot around it in time. He may have made it if not for the engine issues and the really scary thing is it appears that the Polish workers were purposely there to do some sort of engine work for a conversion to Alaska trade route next. That is quite interesting and it sounds like there may or may not be a connection.

It will be interesting what the NTSB finds out regarding the cause of the engine failure.

"At the press conference late on Monday, Tote officials said the repair crew was working on an unspecified engine room issue as part of conversion work before it was moved to the west coast Alaska trade.
Tote Services president Philip Greene said he didn't think the engine room work was linked to a propulsion problem reported by the ship's captain in his last communication"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...echanical-problem-left-cargo-ship-adrift.html

 

[KaaBoom]

If you watch the video of the actual lifeboat,you will see that 95% of it is under water.

Technically, that is "unsinkable" but it is absolutely not helpful.

So you can go by a press release or by what your actual eyes see of the actual lifeboat.

(Also, the second lifeboat has obviously sunk)

I believe they mean "unsinkable" when it is intact. That lifeboat looks to me like it was destroyed when the ship sank. IMHO.

 

[KaaBoom]

The biggest question is: what caused the loss of propulsion/loss of power plant? That is what doomed them.

Agreed, that was the cause.

The ship was well-maintained by US standards and routinely inspected. Their lifeboats were open type, which wouldn't be my first choice for a lifeboat.

Disagree on well-maintained. If it was well-maintained, this would not have happened. The routine inspections are the minimum required by the Coast Guard. And yes, the lifeboats and safety equipment was not great.

900 feet long ships do well in storms and from what I read, the captain was planning to go to the West of the storm but with the loss of power, they were stuck.

Agreed, this ship could have easily made it right through the hurricane if it had power. There was no reason not to take the planed route.

 

[Hatfield]

Some boats have "unsinkable" lifeboats like the one involved with the Somalia pirates / Maersk ship incident.

https://www.navysealmuseum.org/wp-c...t_maersk_alabama-1024x5341-e1399160285586.jpg

 

[KaaBoom]

Working on a boat is a RISK. Every time a person steps foot on any boat, you are assuming risk. Humans are not made to live on or in the water. I can't stess this enough.

Tragedies happen on the water and people die. Add in a category 4 hurricane with 140 mph winds and no power to the ship and they all knew they were doomed at that point.

Yes, it happen's, but it's actually pretty rare. Best as I can tell, nothing like this has happened to any American ship in the last 30 years. I don't think ship workers are assuming that much risk. Large ships like this are pretty damn safe, and they generally have no problem navigating around hurricanes.

 

[jjenny]

Agreed, that was the cause.



Disagree on well-maintained. If it was well-maintained, this would not have happened. The routine inspections are the minimum required by the Coast Guard. And yes, the lifeboats and safety equipment was not great.



Agreed, this ship could have easily made it right through the hurricane if it had power. There was no reason not to take the planed route.

Ships can easily make it right through cat4 hurricane? Says who?

 

[Hiandmighty]

Yes, it happen's, but it's actually pretty rare. Best as I can tell, nothing like this has happened to any American ship in the last 30 years. I don't think ship workers are assuming that much risk. Large ships like this are pretty damn safe, and they generally have no problem navigating around hurricanes.

Most ships are not American (US) flagged ships though. The few that are have to be because they begin and end in American ports.

So you can't really use that as a comparison because the vast majority of ships are not USA flagged because of legal reasons (avoiding laws, etc).

The Jones Act requires american flagged for American (US) ports and companies only do that if they absolutely have to flag American (US)because you have to have an american crew, pay american wages and follow American laws.

 

[KaaBoom]

But this case, for reasons that escape me, the ship went into the storm. They had access to weather conditions, so I really don't understand it. Why didn't the ship turn around? When and why the engine fail? Were they already in the storm when failure occurred? It's an old ship, did the captain really think it can withstand cat 3-5 hurricane?

Ships like this operate in those conditions all the time. The weather was nothing unusual for that area. They obviously couldn't turn around because they had lost power.

Why they lost power is a good question. The age of the ship probably had something to do with it.

 

[KaaBoom]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Captain's plans to make the trip. He had a lot of experience, and his plan to avoid the storm was approved by his company. Everything about this trip would have been routine until they broke down.

For many experienced captains of large vessels, a tropical storm, even one that is strengthening, is cause for concern but not necessarily alarm. Such storms in the Caribbean, along Hurricane Alley, are commonplace and carefully monitored, and do not necessarily lead to canceled voyages, veteran captains said.

“Most ships will encounter tropical storm conditions on a frequent basis, particularly at this time; it’s not something they would necessarily attempt to avoid,” said Capt. Joseph S. Murphy II, a licensed master mariner and commercial vessel captain who has been going to sea since 1968, including along El Faro’s route. “These vessels are very robust; they are capable of handling both types of situation — tropical storms, tropical depressions. And this ship has encountered those on numerous occasions.”

“In this case, I think, it was the worst-case scenario,” he added. “Everything that could go wrong did.”

El Faro, Missing Ship, Has No Sign of Survivors

 

[jjenny]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Captain's plans to make the trip. He had a lot of experience, and his plan to avoid the storm was approved by his company. Everything about this trip would have been routine until they broke down.





El Faro, Missing Ship, Has No Sign of Survivors

This was cat 4 hurricane, not tropical storm by the time they went into it.

 

[jjenny]

Ships like this operate in those conditions all the time. The weather was nothing unusual for that area. They obviously couldn't turn around because they had lost power.

Why they lost power is a good question. The age of the ship probably had something to do with it.

Ships operate all the time in category 4 hurricanes? I don't think so.

 

[jjenny]

Another ship of similar age (sister ship) was deemed "safe to sail" but had significant repairs to complete. I find that bizarre. Shouldn't it complete repairs before being deemed safe to sail?
“Clearly, records say be in repair unless scrapping in 2017 so someone is talking about scrapping it already,” Sullivan said. “This ship shouldn't go out to sea in a storm. Clear water, calm seas is fine.” - See more at: http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/n...-el-faros-sister-/nnyKz/#sthash.Z1w7fiYe.dpuf

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/n...gators-will-talk-crew-el-faros-sister-/nnyKz/

 

[Hiandmighty]

Ship was deemed "safe to sail" but had significant repairs to complete. I find that bizarre. Shouldn't it complete repairs before being deemed safe to sail?
“Clearly, records say be in repair unless scrapping in 2017 so someone is talking about scrapping it already,” Sullivan said. “This ship shouldn't go out to sea in a storm. Clear water, calm seas is fine.” - See more at: http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/n...-el-faros-sister-/nnyKz/#sthash.Z1w7fiYe.dpuf

http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/n...gators-will-talk-crew-el-faros-sister-/nnyKz/

I am very unclear but think they are talking about Yunque ^^^^^

 

[jjenny]

I am very unclear but think they are talking about Yunque ^^^^^

I am pretty sure the article has been edited since I posted the link. Anyhow, El Faro was also very old and had many problems according to its former crew.

"Three former crew members of El Faro, a ship that apparently sank during Hurricane Joaquin, told CNN the ship had structural problems and questioned whether it should have sailed with a major storm in the region."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/08/us/el-faro-missing-ship/

 

[jjenny]

Data indicates El Faro was heading for the hurricane even before it lost propulsion.

"The ill-fated U.S.-flagged El Faro cargo ship sunk by Hurricane Joaquin was sailing at near full speed into the center of the storm before it lost propulsion amid mountainous waves and brutal winds, according to ship tracking data."

https://bangordailynews.com/2015/10...ated-from-usual-route-heading-into-hurricane/

 

[KaaBoom]

Ships operate all the time in category 4 hurricanes? I don't think so.

Yes, thats what they do.

[video=youtube;yyd2h62XXIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyd2h62XXIE[/video]

 

[jjenny]

Yes, thats what they do.

[video=youtube;yyd2h62XXIE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyd2h62XXIE[/video]

Not cat 4 hurricane and a much newer ship than 40 year old El Faro (which had numerous problems according to former crew members).

 

[KaaBoom]

Not cat 4 hurricane and a much newer ship than 40 year old El Faro (which had numerous problems according to former crew members).

Age has nothing to do with it. Ships have been doing that forever. When I was a kid my dad told me stories of riding out several hurricanes at sea, when he was in the navy during World War 2.