4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #88

[arielilane]

• 08/22/2023 Scheduling Order

Idaho Judicial Cases of Interest

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/082223-Scheduling-Order.pdf

Based on the hearing held on August 18, 2023, the Court orders the following:

1. 1) A status conference will be held on August 23, 2023, at 2:15 p.m.

 

[jepop]

There is a status conference scheduled for tomorrow 08/23 at 2:15 pm.

Running a tight ship - necessary if defendant isn't looking to waiver right to speedy trial. Order says his deadline for that is Sept 8th so two weeks. Moo

 

[jepop]

I think it would work, since I've collected trash and teach a lab that includes collecting, preserving and describing trash (preliminary to forensic work).

LE and forensic workers are trained.

You go for things that look like they came from the bathroom trash. It's rare for workmen and housekeepers and DoorDash drivers to use the bathroom, but no worries -you're not looking for THEIR DNA, you're looking for Kohberger DNA.

So, in additional to bathroom trash (kleenex, discarded toothpaste tubes, paper towels, perhaps paper cups - frequently used in bathrooms) we look for:

Other paper towels
Paper and plastic cups
Tissues that could be used to clean eyeglasses (they knew Mr Kohberger wore glasses)
Food packaging (it's r

Thanks, that's great info. And in any event defense are ofcourse free to examine the testing of the trash as all that is in Discovery and irrelevant to IGG process. Moo

 

[jepop]

It seems the FBI lost BK for a few days while he and his father drove back to Pennsylvania and then found them again when they arrived home? Does anyone remember what day they arrived in Pennsylvania?

Idk, don't think it's clear from conflicting, unverified sources whether he was being tracked prior to leaving WA or not. Arrived around 15th Dec from memory. Moo

 

[10ofRods]

Who knows the level of surveillance they had going on the house. Maybe they actually targeted particular items, based on what they were able to see family touching, drinking, picking up fast food etc…

In real life, it's also possible that they just grabbed two bags of trash before the trash collector came. Usually enough.

Breathing deposits enough DNA for testing, that's another vector. But for ease of lab work, all things involved in eating/drinking would be tested - unless Dad never ate or drank, he's likely leaving his DNA on napkins, straws, cups, food prep items, etc.

 

[gremlin444]

Brett (federal prosecutor) in a live recording tonight of a Prosecutor's Podcast: Legal Briefs episode about genetic genealogy & the Idaho case recommended this article from the Columbia Scientific Technological Law Review journal written by a law school and medical law professor called "WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS."

BBM:
"29.5 There Are No Vicarious Rights Under the Fourth Amendment

Even if the Court were prepared to require a warrant for searching sites like GEDMatch, there would be other obstacles to vindicating any Fourth Amendment rights. The remedy for a Fourth Amendment violation is the exclusion, in an eventual criminal trial, of any evidence that was improperly obtained as a result of the unconstitutional search.133 Because this is the remedy, the right only inheres to criminal defendants for unconstitutional searches of their person or things...The distant relative has no Fourth Amendment claim if she is not prosecuted for a crime based on that DNA evidence. Likewise, the criminal defendant has no Fourth Amendment claim if the uploaded DNA comes from the crime scene and law enforcement uses it solely to identify the perpetrator."

As another podcast friend of theirs put it, in order for it to be fruit of the poisonous tree, it has to be fruit from THEIR OWN TREE (that of the defendant/accused criminal..and here tree refers to the concept of the poisonous tree, not the family tree).

WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS - PubMed

WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Chloegirl]

Brett (federal prosecutor) in a live recording tonight of a Prosecutor's Podcast: Legal Briefs episode about genetic genealogy & the Idaho case recommended this article from the Columbia Scientific Technological Law Review journal written by a law school and medical law professor called "WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS."

BBM:
"29.5 There Are No Vicarious Rights Under the Fourth Amendment

Even if the Court were prepared to require a warrant for searching sites like GEDMatch, there would be other obstacles to vindicating any Fourth Amendment rights. The remedy for a Fourth Amendment violation is the exclusion, in an eventual criminal trial, of any evidence that was improperly obtained as a result of the unconstitutional search.133 Because this is the remedy, the right only inheres to criminal defendants for unconstitutional searches of their person or things...The distant relative has no Fourth Amendment claim if she is not prosecuted for a crime based on that DNA evidence. Likewise, the criminal defendant has no Fourth Amendment claim if the uploaded DNA comes from the crime scene and law enforcement uses it solely to identify the perpetrator."

As another podcast friend of theirs put it, in order for it to be fruit of the poisonous tree, it has to be fruit from THEIR OWN TREE (that of the defendant/accused criminal..and here tree refers to the concept of the poisonous tree, not the family tree).

WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS - PubMed

WHY WE FEAR GENETIC INFORMANTS: USING GENETIC GENEALOGY TO CATCH SERIAL KILLERS

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This SHOULD be the definitive answer on this type of genetic genealogy. Mic drop. JMOO

Spoiler Alert: It will not be. Assumably, our laws need to catch up.

 

[Chloegirl]

Idaho murders suspect was kicked out of program after girls complained

Bryan Kohberger was kicked out of a high school law enforcement program after girls complained about his behavior, one of his former teachers has revealed.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger was kicked out of a high school law enforcement program after girls complained about his behavior, one of his former teachers has revealed.


While Kohberger, 28, was vocal about his dreams of a career in law enforcement, his behavior made it clear that he would not end up being a cop, according to Tanya Carmella-Beers, a former administrator at the Monroe Career and Technical Institute.

Speaking on The Idaho Massacre podcast, Carmella-Beers said she was shocked after learning Kohberger's alleged crimes, but added that his arrest 'made sense' given what she knew about his past.

'It wasn't gonna be an ending up in the police academy kind of thing for him,' she said. 'It was gonna be a little bit more of a challenge for him to get there.'

Snip.

Serulneck claimed his workers labeled Kohberger in their systems as a guy who 'makes creepy comments' and said he once called a staffer 'a *advertiser censored*' for spurning his advances.

As a teaching assistant at Washington State University - a job he was fired from - Kohberger was accused of sexism.

'Kohberger allegedly told female colleagues that men were going to take their jobs because women aren’t as smart grading female students more harshly than males,' NewsNation reported.

I listened to this podcast before it was referenced by an approved source or I would have brought it up. I saw it as a pattern emerging.

There are many issues with the representative for the school speaking, but she does seem to explain some things that have been bothering me. The focus on becoming oh I don't know an Army Ranger justified to kill or an Authority figure with power over others stood out to me as well.

I knew this before but it made me really think about his interests. Wanting to be dominant, unfortunately wanting to use weapons and likely sneak up on unsuspecting victims. Sickening. JMOO

Ps. Nothing against military members, somebody has to be able to do that type of disciplined work. There are those who should not.

 

[jepop]

After reading the above attachments, I feel much more comfortable with this judge doing the right thing. All very definite and shipshape. Let's go! Mr. Kohberger seems like a very impatient man. Maybe he knows extra innings won't change the outcome and just wants to get on with it.

Yes, it's a comforting read (for me). I've wondered whether back in Jan when he didn't waive right to speedy trial he imagined some scenario whereby he would be 'exonerated' pre-trial, maybe at the PH that wasn't to be. If that were the case, then this scheduling order would be somewhat of a reality check. Moo

 

[Colorado303]

You can't know the sex of the sample until you test it though. And they could have used maternal DNA, had they found that (and they probably did find it). But, male to male match allows the Y chromosome expert to take the stand - one of the simpler and more convincing ways of showing how DNA works.

ANd this is not directed at you but just in general, I do not recall the Defense saying there was no connection between BK and the HOUSE (because his DNA was inside the house), they said "no connection to the victims," implying no social connections (but of course, parasocial connections could still exist).

I figure they took trash that was promising (napkins, kleenex, etc).

If the sample was complete or near complete, they'd learn the sex of the donor quickly - along with all the autosomal traits on the other 22 pairs of chromosomes.

View attachment 442345

Notice how small that Y is, at the 23rd position (the chromosomes are not lined up in this manner by nature, ever - this is a digital capture of each pair - they do line up next to each other briefly during cellular reproduction, but not horizontally.

The SNP's used by Othram and others are typically on the other chromosomes - in stretches where there's lots of human variation. We are 95% the same as dogs in terms of loci (I said 88% yesterday and looked it up today - and now, reputable sources are saying 95%, after thorough study of the dog genome). We are 99% the same as chimpanzees, but that still leaves some 1200 loci that separate us (as I understand it).

No doubt that’s BK’s DNA on the sheath. But there’s a general question I’m curious about. Is paternal dna ever considered less reliable than full or mitochondrial (maternal) dna since men can parent offspring without ever knowing it? (I can just see internet conspiracy freaks claiming Pappa Rogers is BK’s resentful illegitimate brother who framed him for the crime. Or BK’s Dad was a sperm donor and has hundreds of unknown sons.)

 

[Colorado303]

Brady Giglio Violation regarding one of the first officers on the scene.

MOO

Exactly! IMO

 

[schooling]

I was thinking about this. This method of testing would never work at my house because we have frequent deliveries, guests and workmen and I'm certain our trash contains all of their different DNA's on water bottles and other disposable items, like Kleenex, paper towels, napkins, disposable cups, disposable guest towels, liquid soap containers and whatever they brought with them such as boxes, plastic wrap, etc and I'm sure the deliveries contain DNA from whoever packed them and groceries probably have DNA from where they were manufactured, the people who packed them for shipment, the people who transported and moved them, the people who unpacked and stocked shelves, then anyone who might have touched the item before me, me the purchaser, the checker and bagger and finally the person who put them in my vehicle. The odds of being able to select one person's DNA out of our trash would be tiny. In just a week there might well be thousands of different people's DNA on our trash. That must have been a daunting prospect to weed out a piece of trash from one person.

To catch a quadruple murderer you do daunting work

MOO

 

[schooling]

No doubt that’s BK’s DNA on the sheath. But there’s a general question I’m curious about. Is paternal dna ever considered less reliable than full or mitochondrial (maternal) dna since men can parent offspring without ever knowing it? (I can just see internet conspiracy freaks claiming Pappa Rogers is BK’s resentful illegitimate brother who framed him for the crime. Or BK’s Dad was a sperm donor and has hundreds of unknown sons.)

I know this question is not directed at me and I’m looking forward to the answer too.

But to the conspiracy folks why does it matter (this is probably a silly question lol)? BKs cheek swab ultimately matched the one on the sheath.

Dad has 0 to do with that. Plays no part in the equation.

 

[NextSprint]

I know this question is not directed at me and I’m looking forward to the answer too.

But to the conspiracy folks why does it matter (this is probably a silly question lol)? BKs cheek swab ultimately matched the one on the sheath.

Dad has 0 to do with that. Plays no part in the equation.

I'd use the "wiretap" metaphor:

- Police can't tap your phone unless they have a warrant;
- Let's imagine they tap your phone without a warrant, then based on something they hear they get your DNA and match it to a crime scene sample;
- In court they have to explain how they get to that suspect, why did they take his DNA?
- They explain "Uh, we used a wiretap without a warrant and something he said made us go get his DNA."
- Case is dismissed, end of.

It's about due process, and evidence becoming legally "rotten" if it's obtained illegally. I think that's part of what the D is saying.

All just my opinion.

 

[10ofRods]

No doubt that’s BK’s DNA on the sheath. But there’s a general question I’m curious about. Is paternal dna ever considered less reliable than full or mitochondrial (maternal) dna since men can parent offspring without ever knowing it? (I can just see internet conspiracy freaks claiming Pappa Rogers is BK’s resentful illegitimate brother who framed him for the crime. Or BK’s Dad was a sperm donor and has hundreds of unknown sons.)

mtDNA is way less valuable in making distinctions among people (literally millions of people have H or H1 mtDNA - and all that the mtDNA does is match them up with their mother and their own siblings and of course, their unbroken maternal line back to 30,000 years ago (which is where 23andme derives their "Generally European" or "Generally African" type of statements.

But one literally gets half their alleles/genes from Mom and half from Dad. Always. As far as we know, there are no actual cloned human beings. Or ones with three parents.

mtDNA does not make a body or give an appearance to anyone - all it does it build mitochondria, so it's only important in reproduction insofar as it provides the ovum with power/electricity to exist - sperm do not have mitochondria and live off of sugar in their "headpieces," until it runs out and they die.

So, if Kohberger's parents know that he has a so-far-invisible to everyone twin brother, they really ought to speak up. What a family secret that would be! And to think, the invisible identical twin brother was ALSO in the Pullman-Moscow area, without driving back with Dad or otherwise getting any sort of support from anyone!

(I know you were joking).

Pappa Rodgers/DNA sheath guy would have to be an identical twin of Bryan Kohberger.

It's interesting that people trust paternity tests (obviously, everyone has a father - and that's easy enough to detect with a paternity test, as the person being tested submits their bio-sample and it is tested against a bio-sample of the putative father; it'll either be a perfect 49-50% match or it will be a much lower number. Siblings come next in the hierarchy of "who is most like us," with full siblings often having the saem 49-50% match and half siblings hovering around 24-25% (matching alleles).

I hope the jury understands that this match is even stronger (100% between BK and the sheath DNA, is my understanding - r else AT would be handling this rather differently).

IMO.

 

[iamshadow21]

But one literally gets half their alleles/genes from Mom and half from Dad. Always. As far as we know, there are no actual cloned human beings. Or ones with three parents.

RSBM RBBM

I imagine the latter is theoretically possible, but it would have to be a case of chimerism where each original embryo had a different father (or mother, if donor eggs were used).

What Is Chimerism?

Find out what chimerism is and understand its symptoms and causes.

www.webmd.com

And my basic understanding of chimerism is that it presents as, you might have a different profile in your saliva to your blood, for example. Not that your DNA from testing your saliva shows three parents.

(O/T, because there is no indication whatsoever that this is relevant to this case.)

MOO

 

[10ofRods]

RSBM RBBM

I imagine the latter is theoretically possible, but it would have to be a case of chimerism where each original embryo had a different father (or mother, if donor eggs were used).

What Is Chimerism?

Find out what chimerism is and understand its symptoms and causes.

www.webmd.com

And my basic understanding of chimerism is that it presents as, you might have a different profile in your saliva to your blood, for example. Not that your DNA from testing your saliva shows three parents.

(O/T, because there is no indication whatsoever that this is relevant to this case.)

MOO

Any examples of such a thing? Because having even a little bit "extra" DNA usually causes severe birth defects and/or miscarriage.

There are occasionally people with an extra chromosome (I know of no cases where there's more than one extra) and that extra chromosome is still from one of the two bio parents. Donor eggs do not contain the gestational carrier's DNA, only the DNA from the donor (1 person). They are fertilized with the sperm from 1 person (only 1 sperm is allowed inside in ordinary reproduction, when it comes to fertilization).

The condition of having one extra chromosome is called trisomy (Down Syndrome is such a condition) but I know of no cases where a third person has donated that extra parent - that would be headline news in genetic science. There have been rumors about a certain doctor outside the US splicing genes into embryos, but those are not substantiated and, well, the rumors have really died down.

Chimerism is a case of a deceased (and absorbed twin). They end up showing mixed results when compared with themselves, yes, but I'd love to see a citation about systematic results taken from a person with chimerism showing two distinct DNA profiles. Microchimerism happens with bone marrow transplants - but it's readily observable in the DNA results, regardless of whether saliva or blood. Saliva will show the highest degree of chimerism - but it's not like the blood wouldn't show it at all - it would just be varying levels of confidence in the results.

Again, no cases I know of where one absorbed twin was from one father, and the other from another - has to be statistically rare as hen's teeth, as chimerism is vanishingly rare in the first place (as our dual-paternity results for two twins - but both have happened, so I wager the odds might be something like 1 in a 100 billion. And that indeed would be science news, if found. It's theoretically possible. Has it ever happened?

JMO.

 

[iamshadow21]

Any examples of such a thing? Because having even a little bit "extra" DNA usually causes severe birth defects and/or miscarriage.

There are occasionally people with an extra chromosome (I know of no cases where there's more than one extra) and that extra chromosome is still from one of the two bio parents. Donor eggs do not contain the gestational carrier's DNA, only the DNA from the donor (1 person). They are fertilized with the sperm from 1 person (only 1 sperm is allowed inside in ordinary reproduction, when it comes to fertilization).

The condition of having one extra chromosome is called trisomy (Down Syndrome is such a condition) but I know of no cases where a third person has donated that extra parent - that would be headline news in genetic science. There have been rumors about a certain doctor outside the US splicing genes into embryos, but those are not substantiated and, well, the rumors have really died down.

Chimerism is a case of a deceased (and absorbed twin). They end up showing mixed results when compared with themselves, yes, but I'd love to see a citation about systematic results taken from a person with chimerism showing two distinct DNA profiles. Microchimerism happens with bone marrow transplants - but it's readily observable in the DNA results, regardless of whether saliva or blood. Saliva will show the highest degree of chimerism - but it's not like the blood wouldn't show it at all - it would just be varying levels of confidence in the results.

Again, no cases I know of where one absorbed twin was from one father, and the other from another - has to be statistically rare as hen's teeth, as chimerism is vanishingly rare in the first place (as our dual-paternity results for two twins - but both have happened, so I wager the odds might be something like 1 in a 100 billion. And that indeed would be science news, if found. It's theoretically possible. Has it ever happened?

JMO.

I have no idea, which is why I said theoretically. This is your area, not mine!

MOO

 

[Sundog]

No doubt that’s BK’s DNA on the sheath. But there’s a general question I’m curious about. Is paternal dna ever considered less reliable than full or mitochondrial (maternal) dna since men can parent offspring without ever knowing it? (I can just see internet conspiracy freaks claiming Pappa Rogers is BK’s resentful illegitimate brother who framed him for the crime. Or BK’s Dad was a sperm donor and has hundreds of unknown sons.)

The sperm donor issue is interesting, not in relation to BK's father, but generally speaking. Dani Shapiro wrote her true story/memoir about finding out at age 54 that her father wasn't her biological father, that her biological father was a sperm donor when he was in college. She submitted her DNA sample to 23andMe out of interest in finding out more about her medical history, and was more than surprised to find out this information. Her memoir is Inheritance: A Memoir of Genealogy, Paternity, and Love.

With regard to unknown offspring, woman also have unknown offspring. Of course they know they gave birth, but not necessarily the identity of the offspring if given up for adoption. So people may find they have sisters and/or brothers when they submit their DNA samples to 23andMe or Ancestry, etc. Unknown siblings are also out there based on mothers' DNA.

 

[arielilane]

The speculation ever since the defense asked for this hearing is that even though #BryanKohberger hasn't wanted to waive his right to a speedy trial, once the judge denied defense request to stay the proceedings last Friday, maybe he/his defense has changed their minds about waiving that right. IF this is the case, this would mean the trial would not be happening in October. #Idaho4

A lot of speculation going on about today's #BryanKohberger "status" hearing. Defense asked for a status hearing this week at the end of last Friday's hearing. Judge asked if they could do via Zoom since it's just a "status". Defense said no, they want it in person. Today, the Goncalves Family FB page posted this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1694357280056279285

https://twitter.com/cathyrusson