4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #88

[Boxer]

How do you know the defense haven't done their own DNA and IGG? And if defense has done it, what IF they got a completely different result? IF that has happened, it explains why AT really wants to see the prosecution's DNA process. She has described the prosecution's IGG result as the result of a "bizarre experiment." AT may well know something important the prosecution doesn't know.

It is clear that whatever the problem AT has detected with the DNA, they are considering that the result may have come from an intermittent software error or contamination:
View attachment 444741

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/050323+Defendants+3rd+Supplemental+Request+for+Discovery.pdf

All JMO.

His arrest swab matches the sheath, so there arent any anomalous results.

 

[NextSprint]

It is clear that whatever the problem AT has detected with the DNA, they are considering that the result may have come from an intermittent software error or contamination:
View attachment 444741

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/050323+Defendants+3rd+Supplemental+Request+for+Discovery.pdf

All JMO.

Great, I wonder what the background issues with the labs are/were. I know she said at the last major hearing that those anomaly and correction reports haven’t yet been provided in discovery.

 

[whiterhino]

I'm confused on this. I read what the original poster wrote and here I see you're defending his 3am activities with code? This behavior even for a night owl is off. I think it is pretty obvious that he was concealing things not just taking out the trash.

A lot of people don't feel safe going outside of their house in the middle of the night in the dark, especially if you are a woman and you just had a mass murder of four in your town. I'm just offering a different perspective. JMOO

I swear I've seen this exact scene in a Harlan Coben mini series (Secrets and Lies? cannot recall). The suspect/POI goes into the alley behind their house and hides his trash in his neighbors garbage. Can't help thinking a more seasoned murderer would have taken their trash elsewhere, like a public trash bin or something.

When they say "sealed container with lid" they mean a large Rubbermaid bin with a locking handle. To deter trash pandas. Nobody is expected to seal their garbage in ziplock bags lol!

@DeDee Maybe LE were just collecting anything they found? They counted how many tshirts were in BKs closet. The Fire Stick can be connected to a home security system (camera). It also tracks location but I think that is just for the country. I'm not sure if it shows sign in history or tracks when a user is away from home (IP address etc).

I'm wondering about the human and animal hairs. If the hair doesn't match any of the victims then whose is it?! If it doesn't match the victims or their pets, will we ever learn where the hair came from or what kind of animal it belongs to?

 

[10ofRods]

Good points. I also believe that LE had likely tried back in Pullman to get a surreptitious sample to compare with the forensic sample from sheath and failed to do so. If they were infact finding no trash with BK's dna on it and had perhaps observed him wearing gloves alot (by way of e.g) I can see that making them more suspicious Moo. I think BK was being very careful, especially after the public elantra announcement. Moo

At the time the Search warrants came out, I made some long posts on the supplemental disclosure re the paternal dna test ( the supplemental disclosure begins and ends specifically with the paternal test from the trash in relation to to PC for the WA search warrant), which in the case of the WA warrant and by way of ommission in the case of the PA warrant, both Judges found there was probable cause sans that very specific paternal test to prove it was BK's dna on the sheath button. The PCA in the WA search warrant case was completely transparent about why - that the judge was being asked to find for PC in the event that this specific dna test was later found to be inadmissable. So infact that supplemental disclosure was to do with safeguarding PC for the search warrants. Moo

Can you imagine if you kind of were wondering about this grad student in criminology who was driving a white Elantra, and you talked to his prof and learned...that he was difficult and had upset several women?

So, you think to yourself, "I'll go watch him and when he takes his trash out to that dumpster, I'll be right behind him and get his trash!"

(But then you realize that he's not taking any trash out - OR that he is taking it to his car and of course, LE cannot take trash from inside a car - and to tail the car would be alerting Kohberger - which clearly, neither Pullman nor Moscow PD wanted to have happen).

It would keep the suspicion level high. Anyway, this discussion made me think that maybe Pullman LE did in fact attempt to get trash/DNA from Kohberger. And failed, because he was doing something to prevent it.

JMO.

 

[TL4S]

I don't know that. But if they've done their own testing and got a completely different result, they wouldn't be fighting so hard to have the dna evidence thrown out. They'd want it in so they could present their own experts with the conflicting results.

What is actually clear is that they've detected no problem with the results.

This is what I think, too.

Imo, the D did a disservice to their case when they had their "expert" witness sit in court talking about being self-taught and loopholes. My first thought was...why won't a real expert speak on the D's behalf? That's probably an ignorant thing for me to think, but it was my initial reaction. That witness did not help the D, and if anything, seemed to only give the impression that, try as they might, the D just can't find a better argument regarding the DNA evidence. JMO.

 

[maskedwoman]

How do you know the defense haven't done their own DNA and IGG? And if defense has done it, what IF they got a completely different result? IF that has happened, it explains why AT really wants to see the prosecution's DNA process. She has described the prosecution's IGG result as the result of a "bizarre experiment." AT may well know something important the prosecution doesn't know.

It is clear that whatever the problem AT has detected with the DNA, they are considering that the result may have come from an intermittent software error or contamination:
View attachment 444741

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/050323+Defendants+3rd+Supplemental+Request+for+Discovery.pdf

All JMO.

I think it would be more accurate to say that AT is hoping to make the case that an intermittent software error COULD have occurred, and sell that as a big enough possibility to get a ruling in her clients favor. If she had any real finding that there was an actual problem with the DNA, she would be going after the DNA instead of looking for some potential broken procedural rule in the IGG.

I'm also pretty confident if the lab in question had a bad reputation either a) LE would have stopped using them and/or b) the press would already be talking about that being the reason for her motions.

ETA: if they had already done their own IGG and gotten a completely different result, or proven that it wasn't possible to get those results without cheating the system, I think she would already have made her move. She hasn't made one, which suggests to me that they either haven't tried or didn't get the desired result. She can described the IGG result any way she likes for dramatic purposes. Just like she described IGG as "brand new" when her own witness has been doing it since 2014.

 

[whiterhino]

Can you imagine if you kind of were wondering about this grad student in criminology who was driving a white Elantra, and you talked to his prof and learned...that he was difficult and had upset several women?

So, you think to yourself, "I'll go watch him and when he takes his trash out to that dumpster, I'll be right behind him and get his trash!"

(But then you realize that he's not taking any trash out - OR that he is taking it to his car and of course, LE cannot take trash from inside a car - and to tail the car would be alerting Kohberger - which clearly, neither Pullman nor Moscow PD wanted to have happen).

It would keep the suspicion level high. Anyway, this discussion made me think that maybe Pullman LE did in fact attempt to get trash/DNA from Kohberger. And failed, because he was doing something to prevent it.

JMO.

Did BKs apartment have a garbage chute or possibly on campus? Would that make it more difficult for LE to collect evidence? Or maybe he was keeping his trash in the trunk.

IMO an outbreak certainly would have helped him prepare for keeping track of DNA and disposing of anything incriminating. JMO.

 

[NextSprint]

I'm wondering about the human and animal hairs. If the hair doesn't match any of the victims then whose is it?! If it doesn't match the victims or their pets, will we ever learn where the hair came from or what kind of animal it belongs to?

Why would we need to?! Lol.

 

[whiterhino]

Why would we need to?! Lol.

I am aware of how that sounded lol!

What I meant is, wouldn't it be kind of creepy (JMO) to learn that BK never owned a pet, did not have any friends or family with animals and that the human hair found cannot be tracked to anyone in BKs life? It would be different if BK had some ex gf/friend who owned a ferret or if his sister had a golden retriever but that doesn't seem to be the case. So who does the animal and human hair belong to? To me, it's weird. JMO.

 

[10ofRods]

Did BKs apartment have a garbage chute or possibly on campus? Would that make it more difficult for LE to collect evidence? Or maybe he was keeping his trash in the trunk.

IMO an outbreak certainly would have helped him prepare for keeping track of DNA and disposing of anything incriminating. JMO.

It's my understanding that there are big trash containers, made of metal, at points throughout Steptoe Apartments. There are two different sizes visible on maps.google.com with nearby recycling and possibly composting bins as well.

If this link works, here's a picture.

If Pullman LE was trying to watch him and what he did with trash, it would have been easy - had he used the regular trash containers at his apartment village.

IMO.

 

[Jurisprudence]

Thanks for that, I looked for it myself and couldn't find it.

I don't believe it's anything ominous in and of itself, I believe they are stating the ruling should be made on the totality of probable cause of all the evidence of the PCA, not the inclusion (or exclusion if it should apply in the future) of DNA test results from ISP lab comparing DNA recovered from the trash against DNA recovered from the knife sheath stating it was not being excluded to be the biological father of suspect profile. I believe they were being cautious until they had a direct sample from BK.

The PCA resulted in the arrest of BK at which time they took a direct buccal swab to compare to the DNA from the knife sheath which resulted in an STR comparison showing it 5+ octillion times belonging to him verses any other person.

JMO

[BBM] Agree. It is not.

jmo

 

[Jurisprudence]

... The 4th amendment made a man's home his castle but probably never foresaw the authorities going dumpster-diving. Curb side or otherwise.

MOO and with levity

[snipped BM]

"The Fourth Amendment does not prohibit the warrantless search and seizure of garbage left for collection outside the curtilage of a home."

"Individual States may surely construe their own constitutions as imposing more stringent constraints on police conduct than does the Federal Constitution. We have never intimated, however, that whether or not a search is reasonable within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment depends on the law of the particular State in which the search occurs. We have emphasized instead that the Fourth Amendment analysis must turn on such factors as "our societal understanding that certain areas deserve the most scrupulous protection from government invasion."

California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 (1988)

 

[NextSprint]

I am aware of how that sounded lol!

What I meant is, wouldn't it be kind of creepy (JMO) to learn that BK never owned a pet, did not have any friends or family with animals and that the human hair found cannot be tracked to anyone in BKs life? It would be different if BK had some ex gf/friend who owned a ferret or if his sister had a golden retriever but that doesn't seem to be the case. So who does the animal and human hair belong to? To me, it's weird. JMO.

Oh right I see. Take your point but animal hairs have a way of getting on to your clothes etc. from random places! Cafes, all of that kind of thing.

 

[Sundog]

I am aware of how that sounded lol!

What I meant is, wouldn't it be kind of creepy (JMO) to learn that BK never owned a pet, did not have any friends or family with animals and that the human hair found cannot be tracked to anyone in BKs life? It would be different if BK had some ex gf/friend who owned a ferret or if his sister had a golden retriever but that doesn't seem to be the case. So who does the animal and human hair belong to? To me, it's weird. JMO.

Misc. hairs found at BK's apartment could have been from former tenants and/or their guests, apartment cleaning staff, appliance delivery people, plumbers, BK's father when he was visiting, BK's mother if she packed some items for him as he prepared for his move from PA to WA, transfer strands from his sister(s) on items from the Pennsylvania household, pet(s) from the PA household, pets from former tenants, etc. The only hairs that mattered would be evidence that involved the victims and their pet(s) if there was a match.

 

[schooling]

Well there is this...

The Trash Pick-up/Policies as per the Indian Mountain Lake Deed Restrictions of his parents subdivision where BK was allegedly sealing trash in bags prior to his arrest:

"Trash, garbage and or other waste must be kept in sealed bags which are to be placed in sealed containers with lids. No loose bags are permitted. All trash containers/receptacles must be properly secured and maintained in good repair. There is a 5 can limit for garbage collection."

Indian Mountain Lake - Enumerate Engage -

Enumerate Engage is the industry

engage.goenumerate.com

These instructions sound a lot like the instructions given to me by my city. It just means that I can't empty loose trash directly into the bins provided to me by the city. I can put as much trash in there as I want.....as long as it's in a bag(s) and the lid can fully close.

Sometimes I'll have 2 or 3 individual trash bags in there. But that doesn't mean I manually separated them. It's done so out of the nature of.....well....trash.

One might be pulled from the kitchen, another from the bathroom, another from my workshop etc.

 

[Balthazar]

I don't know that. But if they've done their own testing and got a completely different result, they wouldn't be fighting so hard to have the dna evidence thrown out. They'd want it in so they could present their own experts with the conflicting results.

What is actually clear is that they've detected no problem with the results.

Not really. We actually have no idea if the defense have run the DNA or not. But, AT wouldn't be fighting so hard to get the information on the processing of the DNA by LE if she didn't think something is very, very wrong with it. I can think of a few ways AT may know that there is something majorly wrong with the prosecution's DNA evidence.

If AT thought the DNA was right she would just cast doubt on the veracity by having experts explain how touch DNA gets everywhere. But that's not what AT is doing. That tells me AT's experts likely could not replicate the prosecutions DNA results.

Meanwhile, the prosecutor is doing all he can to hide that information and acts as though he is privileged and shouldn't be questioned and even gets angry when AT asks for it. That's not normal.

If the prosecution is certain his DNA evidence is correct he should have 0 qualms about sharing the details of the entire process with the defense. The fact he is fighting so hard not to disclose the process, which is required to be documented by the FBI, makes it look like he has no confidence in the veracity of what was done. So, instead of simply requesting that the FBI give him the information, he's doing all he can to purposefully avoid getting it.

All JMO.

 

[schooling]

I see some discussion about whether there were attempts to follow BK and take his DNA and recalled this bit of reporting.
The DailyMail is the source of reporting, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt. This text message popped up on the day of his arrest, a few days later DailyMail grabbed it and essentially laundered reported on it.

The only reason I lend it any credence is that it was the first time we heard/read about 'gloves' in general. As the 'gloves in his parents kitchen' thing had not been reported yet.

Idaho suspect stalked victims for WEEKS and wore GLOVES

The man accused of the horrific slayings of four University of Idaho students was allegedly stalking the students in the weeks leading up to the murders.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The text within was purportedly sent to a semi-local by a member of the local LE in PA. With claims that they followed BK around presumably to surveil and/or collect DNA. And that he was being extra cautious.

 

[Balthazar]

The obvious would be sealed garbage bags, not individual Ziplock baggies IMO. But that still doesn't explain why BK would be sealing his stuff up and placing in a neighbors can at 3-4 am in the morning instead of his own can right outside his door.

He did not want LE to be able to collect his DNA seems the most logical conclusion to me.

Just MOO

Actually what he was doing is very common among those who suffer from OCD. Many OCD sufferers do this and feel great shame about it. Their families will typically get on them about this, but it is done by the OCD sufferer to relieve stress. He likely was doing it in the middle of the night and putting it in the neighbor's trash so his family would not know he was doing it. JMO

 

[schooling]

Actually what he was doing is very common among those who suffer from OCD. Many OCD sufferers do this and feel great shame about it. Their families will typically get on them about this, but it is done by the OCD sufferer to relieve stress. He likely was doing it in the middle of the night and putting it in the neighbor's trash so his family would not know he was doing it. JMO

so the family finding no trash in their bins is less odd? im much more likely to notice no trash in my bins and be weirded out than trash that's been separated into individual bags.

especially if any of my sisters' (i personally have two, too), who i spent all of childhood and my young adult college years living with, were OCD...id definitely know about. if separating trash was something they were compelled to do that wouldn't be anything unusual.

but when you look at reports of how his sister felt...her spidey senses went off. i wouldn't be surprised at all if the trash had something to do with that.

she knows him much much much much better than any of us or our speculation. her reported reaction to his behavior tells us all we need to know!

 

[Balthazar]

His arrest swab matches the sheath, so there arent any anomalous results.

We don't know that yet.